MGR Hooper! Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 In some cases it does, it some cases it doesn't but commercial compromise can come into play. 198_bunker.jpg I'm sorry Andy, With all due respect Andy (and I respect your opinion), those do not look like rivets....and it bears absolutely no resemblence to what DJM has tried out. I'm sure you very much favour DJM as a brand, but those really don't look like rivets. What's on DJM's J94 is "rivets". And what only makes things worse is the close proximity of rivets on the J94. I fail to see why everyone seems to make DJM models as if they all had no errors or nothing wrong with it. I think we can all agree that everyone can make errors. I personally don't think the DJM solution was the best, some will agree with me and strong DJM fans will disagree. It doesn't both me, I didn't want one... I would've bought one but this kind of thing stands out, I'm not at a loss. Further up the thread DJM asked to name one RTR model that had to use an aftermarket detailing kit(s) and I think that this J94 could probably benefit with a better etch for it's windows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Moss Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 I'm sorry Andy, With all due respect Andy (and I respect your opinion), those do not look like rivets....and it bears absolutely no resemblence to what DJM has tried out. I'm sure you very much favour DJM as a brand, but those really don't look like rivets. What's on DJM's J94 is "rivets". And what only makes things worse is the close proximity of rivets on the J94. I fail to see why everyone seems to make DJM models as if they all had no errors or nothing wrong with it. I think we can all agree that everyone can make errors. I personally don't think the DJM solution was the best, some will agree with me and strong DJM fans will disagree. It doesn't both me, I didn't want one... I would've bought one but this kind of thing stands out, I'm not at a loss. Further up the thread DJM asked to name one RTR model that had to use an aftermarket detailing kit(s) and I think that this J94 could probably benefit with a better etch for it's windows. Every bump or lump in the tooling isn't a rivet you know! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Every bump or lump in the tooling isn't a rivet you know! I've not said it is. I had "rivets" put in my post to highlight what it looks like, not what it's supposed to be...I said it looks like it. And the close proximity of other rivets makes it more rivet like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Every bump or lump in the tooling isn't a rivet you know! And neither it is what it's supposed to represent and nor does it look like what it's supposed to represent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Regardless of what DJ has put there, it looks far better than the complete lack of such a part on the Hornby model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 14, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 14, 2016 So why doesn't DJM's bars extend across either side? It is an etch anyway. Why have an etch and then "blobs" to continue it? Untitled.jpg Having "BLOBS" doesn't really make it look prototypical. Personal opinion is always going to vary I think the 'blobs' suggest the different, and much larger, circles better than continuing the straight bar which is inevitably thicker than reality. I like the improvements over the Hornby one, the tank and wheels particularly stand out as major visual improvements but I also accept it's not perfect. I could point out a list of compromises but I look at them as inevitable on a £100 model and if you want it perfect then I'd start with one of the brass kits and expect to pay nearly twice as much to build it myself or probably around four times that to have it built for me. To me the DJM one is better than the Hornby rtr by a reasonable margin that the price reflects which is why I doubt Hornby will stop producing theirs too as it hits another market point. These days I'd still choose O to kit build one again much as I did twenty years ago and that looked like the real thing in photos as all the edges were the correct thickness and I could work in dents and bent bits. Compromise is inevitable in rtr which is why good kits have lasted alongside rtr models for the last twenty five years or whatever it is of the ex Dapol one. The same applies in O vs the rtr Bachmann brass one. This is why I've never seen rtr as a danger to kit and scratchbuilt models, they cater to a different segment of the market. There are those who will cast aside their kit to buy a rtr model but in reality how many of those would actually have built the kit? I now concentrate my stock building in large scales where there are no kits and this model means I can have a J94 on my quicky OO layout. I just wouldn't have one for that without this model as I don't have time to build every model I'd like Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 it looks far better than the complete lack of such a part on the Hornby model. Surely that is dependent on what prototype you're modelling. https://flic.kr/p/ddgNhf It's inevitable that the tooling of any RTR loco of a prototype that was built in any number will never be able to cover all the subtle and not so subtle variations that the prototypes carried throughout their lives. Some of us will always have to break out the craft knife if we desire to model a specific loco at a specific time in it's career. E.g BR 03004 Darlington 0-6-0ST J94 68040 no chimney 23.5.1963 by Rob Knox, on Flickr Looking at the photographs have highlighted (for me) that visually the the DJM Austeity/J94 is not the quantum leap forward over the Dapol/Hornby model we were led to expect. I'm the first to admit that photographs can sometime mislead the eye but historically most of us will have made a purchase based on looking at a photograph. Nowadays that may be in a hard copy catalouge but is more likely to be on a forum/blog or retailers/manufactures website. From my experience people have made a decision to buy long before they step into a model shop and handle the product. Website photographs serve us far better today than the illustrations we relied on in the pre-internet age. For those of us that were around 35 to 45 years ago our purchasing decisions were probably based on a four colour lithographic print or "artists impression" in a manufactures catalouge printed on poor quality paper. Regardless of what DJ has put there, I'm more interested in what (or why) DJ hasn't put in this thread. I asked a couple of simple questions earlier. It would have been nice to receive an answer. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 Hi Porcy, Please excuse the rushed nature of this mail but I'm out and about today. I fully understand your point, but never ever did I suggest that the DJM model was going to be perfect, let alone a quantum leap. All I've done is produce what I can at a price point which seems to be a reasonable one, and not put my prices up in the 3 years it's been announced and instead taken the hit financially instead. If all the plus points Andy has written recently for the model does not float your boat, then I'm truly sorry. But I can only do what I can do, and sometimes I am mortal and sometimes miss things. However these points raised are great providing that they are pointed out within reasonable time frame and then I can maybe do something about it. However there's still the price point factor to consider. Firstly for tools which aren't cheap to start with, then the unit cost. Keeping this model at under £100 is a real struggle but I'm doing it even if profits are lower than projected. But I'm a big boy, that's life and that's business. Yes all wheels are powered, yes someone is making a brass detail kit for the model with a sample made by me, yes there should be a sound file ready for its launch too, and yes, I truly believe it's better than any model of this loco in OO gauge that's gone before it. Perfect no! Better? Yes. And Jeremiah, I understand what your saying, I really do. As your such an enthusiast of all things model railway, I'd love to see pictures of your layout, and your rolling stock. Feel free to post here for a couple of days and then delete. I'm truly interested, and I think your enthusiasm must be nurtured by us all. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yes all wheels are powered, Dave, Thanks for the reply. I realise that time taken up doing so may be at a premium. As I asked earlier are the axles plastic with the pinion gear integral please? All I've done is produce what I can at a price point which seems to be a reasonable one, and not put my prices up in the 3 years it's been announced and instead taken the hit financially instead. For that, you have my respect and admiration. Thanks again, P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 Dave, Thanks for the reply. I realise that time taken up doing so may be at a premium. As I asked earlier are the axles plastic with the pinion gear integral please? For that, you have my respect and admiration. Thanks again, P D-oh, in my haste I forgot to answer that. Yes the gears and axle are a 1 piece unit. Sorry for not answering earlier. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yeesh... Hi Dave, I am by no means a steam connoisseur ( I am one of the 'no kettles' brigade) but the model is quite a looker already (not seen it in the flesh being a bit of a 'lone wolf'!) and I am building the funds necessary to purchase one from said Liverpudlian model establishment The notion of a work stained, slightly down at the heeled example has thrown me off my D&E ambitions for the time being, and I mean that sincerely because it is quite something for me to even consider a steam purchase (I own a heck of a lot of diesels, mostly class 47s) For all its fleas (meaning slight tweaks that can be made aftermarket or after purchase!) it is going to be my next purchase, I'm partial to the Mech Navvies example in particular, and I hope to part with more of my modest collection of Beer Tokens in the future towards your products! Which, yes, I intend to make slight mods to where applicable (weathering, etc.) but I commend the overall product and I will join you in the 'eating of the hat' as to perfect off the shelf RTR models! An appreciative Jon (Paragon) (I will amend this post suitably when purchase made, payday in 14 days lol!) *preorder placed* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake R Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Despite its flaws, the model looks fantastic and I'm excited to get mine, despite the issues that have been pointed out (hopefully it'll come in the next couple of months, as it seems some are coming off the assembly line already!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I pre-ordered my first one blind, and unlike a lot of others, ordered the subsequent locos (one Hattons and the yellow peril, plus another "ordinary" one pre-ordered) AFTER I had been able to wrap my grubby mits round one of the EPs at RMWeb Live at Ricoh. The model has limitations- it is a model with a plastic exterior done to a price. Maybe if it were brass at three to five times the price there would be fewer things for people to grumble about. Or maybe not.... Would I expect a finer bunker on a brass one? Yes. However, my brass 48150 class (Hunslet WD precursor) has a dent in its bunker caused by being in the wrong place when one of my bookshelves became too heavy for the rawlplugs it depended on. Will I carve any of my DJM Austerities about to get different versions? No- I have enough cheaper Hornby and Dapol ones to do that. Would I have paid £300 for a model with fewer compromises? Only if brass and built by someone more competent than me. I have a 48150 and a 50550 class which were professionally built in brass from Mercian kits. My Hornby J94s run better than these and from what I've seen the DJM one will run at least as well as the Hornby. Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 15, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2016 At the risk of using managementese and bull ***t bingo I think that fundamentally this is a glass half full vs. glass half empty argument. And I don't mean that this model is half good, I think it is excellent, but rather that you can choose to value the positives and accept that no model is perfect, or you can seek perfection. In the first case you accept that a model is what it is, in the second I think you will find disappointment in the hobby. This is not just about DJM and this austerity, it is a common point applicable to Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol etc. I know this might mark me as a "that'll do, good enough" person but I don't choose to accept models as they are because I'm ignorant of flaws or because I don't care but more because I just want to enjoy the hobby and think that it is more important to capture the spirit and impression of the real train than to worry about absolute accuracy. Does that mean I don't want accuracy? No, of course I'd love absolute accuracy but I'd rather enjoy the hobby rather than never finding models I truly like because I am chasing something I'm unlikely to find. I used to be a bit of a hi-fi buff and I saw similarities in that some people spent ££££££'s on constantly replacing expensive hi-fi equipment in an attempt to find perfection. And at the risk of sounding mercenary I do link my expectations to price. I am a collector of HO brass models, I have very different expectations of a Tenshodo or Overland model than a Hornby Railroad model to take it to extremes. In this case I think the price is very reasonable, I think it looks very good and I really congratulate Dave. Apologies for a long winded and rather meandering post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted July 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2016 Here's one to encourage you to buy one of Dave's new locos. For more pics see the Foxfield Steam Gala thread. PS It's not the real Hurricane. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Dave, do you consider your design to be capable of quick & easy conversion to EM, by for example pulling the wheels out, or would it require fully bespoke conversion axles/gear/wheel sets? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of IKB Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Dave, do you consider your design to be capable of quick & easy conversion to EM, by for example pulling the wheels out, or would it require fully bespoke conversion axles/gear/wheel sets? Thanks to me personally, this is far more important than whether tiny circles on/near the window bars are correct! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecheesemiester Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Im not sure i understand why this model is coming under so much scrutiny. compared to the Hornby austerity, which i have, this is MILES better. sure, the window bars may be a little inaccurate, but on the Hornby there was a huge water tank gap, no separate smokebox door handle, incorrect wheels, plain con-rods etc etc... the list of flaws with the Hornby model is huge, and yet people are saying they hoped it would be better??!!?? It is important to remember (PS dave I'm not trying ti patronise) but compared to Hornby, Bachmann etc DJM is a very new company with esc experience. if you compared the first Bachmann models, such as the V3 tank to the austerity, there is no contest! and how many models have the big names released that have been FAR worse than this, which is one of DJMs first models? the Hornby A1, which was almost as much as a much nicer Bachmann model, and the Duke of Gloucester, or the old Heljan class 33. IMO, this model is really up there with the best models, especially considering the price and how new DJM is. Now dave.... where is that hudswell clarke Ive got a industrial layout to build... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 27, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2016 Can't wait for the j94, I have 3 on back order, it hurts me not to be 5.. But really what would I do with 5.. Industrial loco's are the untapped gem of the hobby, as this J94 and soon the Hornby will also no doubt show with its peckett. Now apart from the hudswell Clarke, how about some MSC 0-6-0ts and an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0ST. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Industrial loco's are the untapped gem of the hobby, It is a shame that there have been lots o 08's & 10's in industrial use and liveries that these have been ignored by the model manufacturers Mark Saunders! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I have 3 on pre-order but until I know conversion to EM is going to be feasible, these might get binned. The earlier suggestion of plastic axles with integral gears does not fill me with hope and with Ultrascsle not currently developing new conversion sets, prospects are not rosy. Hopefully DJM can offer reassurances to my earlier post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 I have 3 on pre-order but until I know conversion to EM is going to be feasible, these might get binned. The earlier suggestion of plastic axles with integral gears does not fill me with hope and with Ultrascsle not currently developing new conversion sets, prospects are not rosy. Hopefully DJM can offer reassurances to my earlier post. Hi, On the J94 all wheels are geared and as such driven. HTH cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OOgaugeJaf Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Dave, any news on the delivery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 Dave, any news on the delivery? Can't say much, but yes. Lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted July 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 28, 2016 Why did the Model Rail sample need to be recalled before the review was published, and has this affected any of the other magazines apart from BRM? (N.b. Just for clarification MR haven't yet published) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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