Drummond T9 4-4-0

[Robin Brasher]

A couple of pictures of 30120 at Swanage Station on 23 March 2014. The smokebox is painted matt black whereas the rest of the body is gloss black and this seems to have been the case in British Railways days. A close up of the smokebox shows the 72A Exmouth Junction shed plate. When this T9 was at this shed from 19 March 1961 the T9 would have worn the late BR crest which would have been the correct livery for hauling the BR SR green coaches on the Swanage Railway. I accept that some locomotives retained the cycling lion crest well into the period when SR coaches were green.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Robin Brasher

[Oldddudders]

Robin - do you mean the smokebox? I think the firebox is generally the place where the fireman empties his shovel?

[Robin Brasher]

Robin - do you mean the smokebox? I think the firebox is generally the place where the fireman empties his shovel?

Yes. I have altered it now. I am sorry that I did not notice the error at the outset.

[Robin Brasher]

I attach a couple of extracts from The Fireman's Tale on pages 52 and 55 of The Fireman's Tale in the Swanage Branch Then and Now by Andrew P.M. Wright published by Ian Allan. This is a first hand account of the attack on T9 120 when Stan Brown was firing a down freight. You will see  that  the attack took place on Saturday 28 November 1942: not 29 November, there were two ME 109s: not a single German aircraft. The T9 was stationary by the Ship Inn near Wool Station. At the time of the attack it appeared to have more than minor damage as it was riddled with bullets and cannon shells from end to end.

No it didn't. The model is of a Urie Rebuilt T9, and is in Urie's green livery which replaced Drummond's livery from 1916/7 during the Great War.

 

No. 120 was built in 1899 and rebuilt into the form modelled by Hornby in 1927 when it received Maunsell's Southern Railway Sage Green livery so it never appeared in the livery illustrated until 'restored' by BR in 1962.

 

The engine was attacked by a single German aircraft on 29th November 1942 between Moreton and Wareham on the LSWR main line. Despite 20mm cannon fire it was found that it had no serious damage other than the tender side sheeting and the outer firebox casing. Also two superheater elements were holed together and a lubricating pipe and was severedand both cab lookout windows were shattered. (Information from don Bradley's LSWR Locomotives).

 

No LSWR livery was ever described as 'Royal Green', although one T9 - no. 119 (BR 30119) - was repainted into Bulleid's Malachite Green livery for use on Royal trains after the Second World War.

 

I'm afraid, Robin, that you are becoming notorious for writing so much garbage, but this particular posting takes the biscuit as there is nothing correct in it! Please check your facts before writing and then check again. It is usually regarded as the most heinous of modelling crimes to put incorrect facts on record. Already someone has thanked you for it so now believes that what you have written is true.

 

Sorry, but there it is.

 

JE

Edited April 1, 2014 by Robin Brasher

[N15class]

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I attach a couple of extracts from The Fireman's Tale on pages 52 and 55 of The Fireman's Tale in the Swanage Branch Then and Now by Andrew P.M. Wright published by Ian Allan. This is a first hand account of the attack on T9 120 when Stan Brown was firing a down freight. You will see  that  the attack took place on Saturday 28 November 1942: not 29 November, there were two ME 109s: not a single German aircraft. The T9 was stationary by the Ship Inn near Wool Station. At the time of the attack it appeared to have more than minor damage as it was riddled with bullets and cannon shells from end to end.

Reading the bottom paragraph, it is a worry about the legitamacy of the testimony. If the firebox had been penatrated there would of been far more happening than water pouring from the hole of a punctured firebox.

 

The trouble is a lot of stories are told and retold, and get bigger and more far fetch each time. Also from Wool station you would be hard pressed to see clearly the loco at the Ship inn.

[Robin Brasher]

Reading the bottom paragraph, it is a worry about the legitamacy of the testimony. If the firebox had been penatrated there would of been far more happening than water pouring from the hole of a punctured firebox.

 

The trouble is a lot of stories are told and retold, and get bigger and more far fetch each time. Also from Wool station you would be hard pressed to see clearly the loco at the Ship inn.

If the down freight from Brockenhurst to Dorchester had continued on its journey the crew would have a good view of the damaged sustained to T9 120.

[Robin Brasher]

 

No LSWR livery was ever described as 'Royal Green', although one T9 - no. 119 (BR 30119) - was repainted into Bulleid's Malachite Green livery for use on Royal trains after the Second World War.

 

I'm afraid, Robin, that you are becoming notorious for writing so much garbage, but this particular posting takes the biscuit as there is nothing correct in it! Please check your facts before writing and then check again. It is usually regarded as the most heinous of modelling crimes to put incorrect facts on record. Already someone has thanked you for it so now believes that what you have written is true.

 

Sorry, but there it is.

 

JE

To clarify the position about LSWR Royal Green livery you may be interested to read the attached extracts.

 

1) Extract from HRMS Livery Register no 3 LSWR and Southern by L. Tavender and published by the Historical Model Railway Society on page 8 under heading 2.9 The Drummond passenger engine livery 1895-1917. The first colour in italics is Royal Green. It is in italics because the colour was in use by the LSWR Railway itself.

 

2)The next extract describing the colour as Royal Green comes from the paragraph headed Some Details, Liveries on page 14 of the Book of the T9 4-4-0s by Richard Derry and again published by Irwell Press Ltd.

 

3)The final extract describing Drummond LSWR livery as Royal Green is taken from Chapter Four, Liveries on page 47 of the Book of the M7 0-4-4Ts by Peter Swift and again published by the Irwell Press Ltd.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Robin Brasher

[unravelled]

If it's any interest, a picture of 120 in 1964. I think the location is Fratton.

 

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Robin Brasher]

T9 20120 on 50' turntable at Swanage on Sunday 30 March 2014. The turntable was large enough for most engines normally using the Branch before it was preserved. Engines that were too big to be turned included the Bulleid Light Pacifics and BR standard 4MT 4-6-0s and 4MT 2-6-0s with large BR1B tenders.

[Robin Brasher]

For further information about the attack on 120 by two ME 109s please see http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk , click on "Latest News" and then click on "Second World War Luftwaffe attack survivor to star in first ever Swanage Railway Spring Steam Gala..." There are also lots more pictures of the T9.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Robin Brasher

[Robin Brasher]

 

From a dream to reality in 40 years. T9 30120 crosses Corfe Viaduct with a passenger train at 11:52 on Saturday 5 April 2014.

[bike2steam]

Robin - good to see the T9 at Swanage again - especially when you consider the disastrous negotiations with the NRM after it's last long visit  . But regarding your comment about turning large locos at Swanage - you know it has been done, during preservation - by splitting loco from tender.

Edited April 7, 2014 by bike2steam

[Blobrick]

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A couple of pictures of 30120 at Swanage Station on 23 March 2014. The smokebox is painted matt black whereas the rest of the body is gloss black and this seems to have been the case in British Railways days. A close up of the smokebox shows the 72A Exmouth Junction shed plate. When this T9 was at this shed from 19 March 1961 the T9 would have worn the late BR crest which would have been the correct livery for hauling the BR SR green coaches on the Swanage Railway. I accept that some locomotives retained the cycling lion crest well into the period when SR coaches were green.

 

 

With regard to the matt finish on the Smokebox, my understanding is that the heat in the unlagged smokebox was greater than the lagged boiler cladding and as such any varnish applied in that area would succumb to the heat

[N15class]

I think it is more to do with the use of a different paint.

[Horsetan]

.....The trouble is a lot of stories are told and retold, and get bigger and more far fetch each time.....

Not helped by the odd fantasist as well, e.g. a proportion of the history relating to where and when engines were actually cut-up, towards and at the end of steam, is what caused the whole "What Happened To Steam" research project to take off.

[autocoach]

A small contribution with the latest Hornby R3108 offering on my small Padstow plank: I know my spacing is off for the number 703 on this side of the cab. Will have to re-do it shortly before weathering.

Edited October 19, 2014 by autocoach

[Robin Brasher]

Issue 20 of the Great British Locomotives Collection includes a 16 page magazine about the T9 and a scale model which are good value at £8.99.  It looks like the livery is LSWR Urie green that 117 would have carried from late 1917 to April 1925 when it was repainted in Southern livery.

[Guest]

To me, it looks like the same shade of LSWR Green that 120 carried in the 60's

As I believe someone informed us on this thread, it is not the same shade as it would've carried back in the days of the LSWR. Therefore, I think this may be a potential mistake...

[brianusa]

Whatever colour it is, it has to be one of the prettiest applied to this T9,  It would be more appropriate if vintage locos such as this were painted in their original plumage as opposed to the BR black inflicted upon them in their old age.

 

Brian

[Robin Brasher]

LSWR passenger engine liveries are described in great detail on pages 7 - 11 of HMRS Livery Register no. 3 LSWR and Southern published by the Historical Model Railway Society.  There is a colour chart in Appendix 4.  No paint fragments remain of the locomotive colour applied after 1917.  The writer thought that light olive was the most representative shade and the colour in the chart is darker than the shade used on the prototype 120 in the 1960s and the shade used by Hornby and by the Great British Locomotive Collection for 117. The sepia picture of 702 in 1921 on page 4 of the Great British Locomotive Collection Magazine also looks much darker than the picture of 120 on page 116 of Preserved Locomotives Fourth Revised Edition by H.C. Casserley. Even though 117 may be in the incorrect shade and represents the locomotive as modified by the Southern Railway and British Rail it still looks attractive hauling a rake of chocolate brown and salmon pink LSWR coaches.

[Robin Brasher]

0 gauge T9 706 in Southern Livery after 25 September 1931 when the E prefix was removed. This was running on the Purbeck Model Railway Group's model of the Swanage Railway at Furzebrook Village Hall. Next year we will have a permanent 170' model of the Swanage Railway in Swanage.  One fascinating feature of the model T9 was the operating pistons.

[Horsetan]

Don't forget Ullypug's build of the Martin Finney T9 kit - narrow cab and P4, natch.

[phil_sutters]

Photos of varying quality and all in black & white from my father's cameras.

9.3.2015 I have added another photo I noticed I missed. I don't know where it was taken as it is from a loose negative.

Edited March 9, 2015 by phil_sutters

[Graham_Muz]

Phil, Many thanks for posting the pictures, always good to see and if you have anymore of a Southern flavour please feel free to post, worthy of their own thread perhaps?

[RFS]

Like the pictures and there's a certain poignancy in the last picture, as it shows D6502 which had to be withdrawn the following year (1964) when it was damaged beyond repair.