Dave F's photos - ongoing - more added each day

[jonny777]

I'm not at all sure, all the notes on the 1967 Pilmoor photos are from Dad's slide catalogue and I don't have a working timetable for the period.

 

As the photo is at Pilmoor the train must have come either from the Newcastle/Edinburgh line or routes from Sunderland or Middlesbrough.

 

 

We may have had this conversation before; but in 1967 1E79 was the 1200 departure from Newcastle to Lincoln.

 

Between June 19th and September 1st this service was extended to Colchester.

 

It does seem rather unusual for a Deltic to be working a train to Lincoln, and there is no provision for a loco change at Doncaster in the WTT, but I suspect that would be the case, and the service continue in a more leisurely fashion behind a Brush Type 2 from Doncaster to Lincoln.

 

Although Deltics were no strangers working through Lincoln on weekend diversions, I have no recollections of them arriving on terminating services; and the northbound train left Lincoln many hours earlier, so it would not be returning on that.

 

Maybe Gateshead found it a useful service for sending south any Deltic which was booked for attention at Doncaster works? That is my best guess at the moment.

[DaveF]

We may have had this conversation before; but in 1967 1E79 was the 1200 departure from Newcastle to Lincoln.

 

Between June 19th and September 1st this service was extended to Colchester.

 

It does seem rather unusual for a Deltic to be working a train to Lincoln, and there is no provision for a loco change at Doncaster in the WTT, but I suspect that would be the case, and the service continue in a more leisurely fashion behind a Brush Type 2 from Doncaster to Lincoln.

 

Although Deltics were no strangers working through Lincoln on weekend diversions, I have no recollections of them arriving on terminating services; and the northbound train left Lincoln many hours earlier, so it would not be returning on that.

 

Maybe Gateshead found it a useful service for sending south any Deltic which was booked for attention at Doncaster works? That is my best guess at the moment.

 

Many thanks for the information,  I think your explanation is the most likely one, I'll put a note in the catalogue for future reference.

 

Please do continue to provide the extra information when you can, it is much appreciated.

 

David

[JeffP]

Just look at those Peaks on cross country services......ten, twelve and thirteen coaches!

 

Now we have diesel units with FOUR!

 

Where, oh where did we go wrong?

[trisonic]

Is that a “Why Oh, Why” moment coming on?

 

Thanks for the continuing high quality photos, David.

 

Best, Pete.

[The Stationmaster]

In 1967 the 'E' alpha still described an inter-Reional train to the Eastern Region.  Thus it would  (should) have been used on a Newcastle starter which terminated somewhere in the ER (e.g. Lincoln, or London) and equally the 'E' alpha would (should) have been used on a Leeds starter which terminated in London or - more obviously - an Edinburgh starter which terminated in London.   A train from London, or Lincoln, to Newcastle would (correctly) have carried an 'N' alpha as it would be an inter-Regional train terminating in the North Eastern Region.

[Chris Turnbull]

Just look at those Peaks on cross country services......ten, twelve and thirteen coaches!

 

Now we have diesel units with FOUR!

 

Where, oh where did we go wrong?

 

I'm not sure we have gone wrong.  Although the trains had thirteen coaches there may well have been only one or two a day.  You are correct to point out that similar trains today consist of, perhaps, four coaches but the service is likely to be far more regular. 

 

I realise I will probably bring down an avalanche of opprobrium on my head for saying this, but I prefer the regular service we have today to that which we had in days gone by.  That's not to say that it's perfect, far from it, but not everything was better in the "good old days".

 

Chris Turnbull 

[jonny777]

In 1967 the 'E' alpha still described an inter-Reional train to the Eastern Region.  Thus it would  (should) have been used on a Newcastle starter which terminated somewhere in the ER (e.g. Lincoln, or London) and equally the 'E' alpha would (should) have been used on a Leeds starter which terminated in London or - more obviously - an Edinburgh starter which terminated in London.   A train from London, or Lincoln, to Newcastle would (correctly) have carried an 'N' alpha as it would be an inter-Regional train terminating in the North Eastern Region.

 

I'm afraid that is not strictly correct for most of the 1960s, which is the point I was trying to get across earlier in the thread.

 

While most inter-regional trains did conform with the standard letter codes, all *class 1 long distance passenger trains whose journey was confined entirely to the ECML* were exceptions.

 

The text between the (my) asterisks is the important consideration here. 

 

The ECML in this instance refers to the main line from Kings Cross through Newcastle and Edinburgh, and even up to Aberdeen.  While strictly speaking these long distance trains were inter-regional in that they may have passed through the Eastern, NorthEastern and/or Scottish Regions, if their journey was wholly confined to the ECML they were not treated as such, and all carried an 'A' headcode irrespective of direction.

 

 

The only difference between up and down services was that up had odd numbers, and down had even.

 

For instance the 1000 KX to Edinburgh was 1A16 and the 1000 Edinburg to KX was 1A23 (both Flying Scotsman services)

 

Similarly the first train to Newcastle from Kings Cross, the 0005 departure was 1A00, the 0100 was 1A02, and the 0755 was 1A06.... and so on.

While the 0725 from Newcastle to Kings Cross was 1A03,  the 0755 was 1A05, and the 0740 from Sunderland was 1A09... etc.

 

Even the Edinburgh and Aberdeen sleepers were included in this category, with the 2215 to Aberdeen being 1A70, and the 2230 to Edinburgh 1A72.

In the up direction, the 2200 ex-Edinburgh was 1A69, and the 1915 from Aberdeen was 1A73.

 

The Anglo-Scottish Car Carrier (more precisely the 0749 Caledonian Rd to Perth in 1967) also obeyed the convention, being 1A10.

The corresponding up service you would expect to be an odd number, and indeed it was - 1A67 being the 2030 Perth to Caledonian Road.

 

In those days, the letter 'N' was correctly used for down trains to Yorkshire; either Leeds, Bradford, Harrogate and Hull, because these did not have their *entire* route on the ECML, and similarly the 'E' for the up trains.

 

I have never actually discovered the reason for this departure from the normal inter-regional coding, but I suspect it may have assisted the operators at important stations such as Doncaster and York, who were faced with far more cross country services which were also inter-regional, to easily identify the ones running to London in busy times, and it would also give an easier guide to Haymarket and Gateshead as to which services could be headed by Deltics. But that is mere conjecture on my part.

 

I'm sure the real reason for this policy is buried deep in a Modern Railways from some time in the mid-60s but I have never thought to search for it, so if anyone can give any extra info, I would be grateful.

 

One thing you can guarantee, is that if you saw a down service with a 'N' headcode on the ECML south of Doncaster, it would not be destined for Newcastle, whereas if you saw one north of Doncaster, it most likely would be.

 

It's as clear as mud? My advice would be to obtain a mid-60s WTT and take a look. It's fascinating stuff.

[brushman47544]

I'm not sure we have gone wrong.  Although the trains had thirteen coaches there may well have been only one or two a day.  You are correct to point out that similar trains today consist of, perhaps, four coaches but the service is likely to be far more regular. 

 

I realise I will probably bring down an avalanche of opprobrium on my head for saying this, but I prefer the regular service we have today to that which we had in days gone by.  That's not to say that it's perfect, far from it, but not everything was better in the "good old days".

 

Chris Turnbull

 

I agree that a regular and more frequent service is better than was offered in the past, but with one caveat namely that in the past a far wider range of destinations were served by direct (mostly longer distance) trains. If the time during the day you travelled was less important, having a through train option was always preferred. Now more than likely you will have to change.

[leopardml2341]

Having a more regular service only works if the capacity remains available on the 'peak' services.

 

All too often I gave to suffer a 4 car voyager, where at least 8 are required.

 

Providing more trains does not necessarily mean that passengers change their travel habits, especially if commuting / business travel.

[david.hill64]

Just look at those Peaks on cross country services......ten, twelve and thirteen coaches!

 

Now we have diesel units with FOUR!

 

Where, oh where did we go wrong?

Ah Jeff, you forget: it's perfectly feasible to crowd the inhabitants of 13 Mark 1s into a Voyager..........

 

In defence of the current regime, I think service frequencies are probably double or triple what they were when the peaks were in charge.

[keefer]

Re: 1E79, napier-chronicles doesn't have WTT for 67/68 but has one for summer '67

 

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt67summer.htm

 

1E79 is given as 12:00 Newcastle - Colchester (via coast) - KX portion goes onto 1A27 at York, 1A27 being the 13:00 Newcastle - KX.

 

The headcodes changed in late 1969 to the more normal 'regional' style:

 

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt69-70.htm

Edited February 4, 2015 by keefer

[The Stationmaster]

I agree that a regular and more frequent service is better than was offered in the past, but with one caveat namely that in the past a far wider range of destinations were served by direct (mostly longer distance) trains. If the time during the day you travelled was less important, having a through train option was always preferred. Now more than likely you will have to change.

It all depends  On part of the Cross Country network the train service nowadays (when the infrastructure is there) is out of this world compared with that of the 'good old days' of the 1960s.  For example compared with a  through train each day from Newcastle/York to Reading (to a small station 'round the corner' from the main one) back then there is now an hourly interval service between Newcastle and Reading although admittedly it no longer serves Leicester and Nottingham intermediately.  Similarly there is an hourly service from Bournemouth/Southampton via Reading to Birmingham and the north west  - instead of one or two trains each day.

 

Train operators can't do everything but the cross-country routes in the west of London part of the country generally have massively better services than the did in even the 1980s let alone the 1960s.  True some through journey opportunities have gone, but equally a lot more have been created. and punctuality is generally in a very different league from the way it was back in the '80s and earlier.  Equally time wise many of the Cross Country journeys are now competitive, or nearly so, with those via London and offer passengers greater convenience as a result.  Back in the late 1960s, and earlier, a through journey from York to Reading was something I regarded as a 'railway journey experience' - almost an adventure, nowadays I look upon it - as did back in December - as a perfectly valid alternative to having to traipse between two London termini and with almost no need to look at a timetable.

[jonny777]

Re: 1E79, napier-chronicles doesn't have WTT for 67/68 but has one for summer '67

 

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt67summer.htm

 

1E79 is given as 12:00 Newcastle - Colchester (via coast) - KX portion goes onto 1A27 at York, 1A27 being the 13:00 Newcastle - KX.

 

The headcodes changed in late 1969 to the more normal 'regional' style:

 

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt69-70.htm

 

 

Thanks for that info.

 

The WTT I have is valid 6th March 1967 to 5th May 1968.  I'm assuming that the photo was not taken during the summer period (mainly because as that ended on the 1st, I have a 30 to 1 chance of being right ).

 

However the swapping of portions may have occurred at Doncaster during the non-summer period, although there is nothing in my WTT to suggest it; but 1E79 spends 19 minutes in the station from 1504 to 1523 while 1A27 arrives at 1512 and leaves at 1518.

 

I have the April 66 to March 67 WTT as well and that is the same, with an out of season 1200 Newcastle to Lincoln, extended to Colchester 20 June to 2 Sep. The timings of this and the 1300 from Newcastle are the same at Doncaster, but the headcodes are 1E46 and 1A39 respectively.

[Porcy Mane]

Dave,

 Up till then I had no idea these vans could be seen in NE England, but since then I've seen a grey van with a Q6 at Blyth in a DVD  - Marsden Rail No. 34.

"Hijack Apology"

 

Relatively common in the N.E. Here's one behind 63395 just about to cross the Victoria Viaduct:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69149-Bachmann-announcements-20134/page-28&do=findComment&comment=987925

 

P

[DaveF]

A look at the Highland line to Thurso tonight - two of the photos actually have trains in them, which are a bit few and far between unless you know the timetable very well.

 

In 1969 I went to stay at a croft north of Loch Ness with some student friends.  While we were at Lairg we found a phone box and all decided to phone home, the phone in the box had no dial, so we had to jiggle the receiver to get an answer from the operator. She was very surprised when in answer to her question about why we didn't just dial the number we wanted we explained about the phone not having a dial.  On being told to put the money and press Button A we had to say that there were no buttons.  It must have been one of the last of that type of phone in service.

The photos on this holiday were the first I took in colour.

 

Those taken in 1973 and 1974 are Dad's photos.

 

Lairg view north 25th June 69 C014

 

 

Lairg from level crossing Aug 73 J3295

 

 

Helmsdale down pass from Inverness Aug 74 J3881

 

 

Thurso 21st June 69 C012

 

 

Thurso Class 24 21st June 1969 C003

 

 

David

Edited April 6, 2022 by DaveF

[Swindon 123]

Many thanks, I've amended the caption.

 

Sorry, I made a mess of the quotes so it looks a bit odd.

 

David

Sorry Dave your caption is still wrong. The leading vehicle in blue is a BRCW 104 DMBS. The other two vehicles in Blue/Grey are either 108's or 107's. I can't see the position of the passenger door handles in relation to the side windows which would give me definite identification but my punt at identities is the middle trailer is a 107 and the rear DMS is a 108, but it is very difficult to tell at the photos resolution.

 

Paul J.

 

PS. Photos are brilliant. Look forward to your updates.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Swindon 123

[DaveF]

Sorry Dave your caption is still wrong. The leading vehicle in blue is a BRCW 104 DMBS. The other two vehicles in Blue/Grey are either 108's or 107's. I can't see the position of the passenger door handles in relation to the side windows which would give me definite identification but my punt at identities is the middle trailer is a 107 and the rear DMS is a 108, but it is very difficult to tell at the photos resolution.

 

Paul J.

 

PS. Photos are brilliant. Look forward to your updates.

 

Many thanks for pointing out that the caption was still wrong,I've now had another go at it.

I was sure I'd altered it!  I can only think that I did the quote and then forgot to alter the original.

 

Senior moment?

 

David

[great central]

Ah Jeff, you forget: it's perfectly feasible to crowd the inhabitants of 13 Mark 1s into a Voyager..........

 

In defence of the current regime, I think service frequencies are probably double or triple what they were when the peaks were in charge.

 

I agree that today's service frequency is far better.

As an example to visit  Barry Scrapyard in a day in 1969-70 required a late evening start from Nottingham then an overnight train from Derby-Gloucester, changing for a connection at about 04.20 to Cardiff arriving around 06.00. There was a direct service back in the afternoon.

More recently 2004-5 it was possible to get from Nottingham-Cardiff in time to get 37 hauled to Fishguard and back, then do a one way to Rhymney where the 37 was stabled, back on a unit for the last Cardiff-Nottingham. All that in one day, OK a long one but given that Cardiff-Fishguard is 130 or so miles alone....................  

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. Love the photo's of the Highland line to Thurso, especially the last one, which is one of those classic photo's of Thurso.

 

Regarding the Voyager units, I think the interior of the units leaves a lot to be desired - over bright lighting and 'seats made from slabs of concrete' - or so it seems to me. Also not forgetting the smells from the toilets! The experience of train travel is not what it was in a Mk1, with much better seating and lighting.

 

That photo' from page 86, C8927; I've had another look at it, and, as stated by Swindon 123, the first car is a class 104 DMBS in blue. Then, if you look at the leading end of the second car, you can just nicely see the end window of a class 104 TSL, which has also had it's roof vents removed. Finally, as I stated in post 2203, the last car is class 108 - the roof vents, 'lower positioned' side saloon windows, and tumblehome are all indicators of a class 108 car.

 

Please keep the photo's coming,

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[uax6]

Cracking shots of the Highland tonight. Couple of things of interest:

 

The second shot at Largs shows what looks like a fouling bar on the right-hand blade of the point. How does that work?

 

The shot of the 26 at Helmsdale shows a back lit banner repeater in the forground, but more interestingly the distant (towards the end of the train) is one of the ones that the LMS painted the posts with alternating 2 foot black and white bands. Also note the 3 BG's at the head of the train.

 

Cracking shots yet again, thanks.

 

Andy G

[corneliuslundie]

I assume it is a facing point lock, but I would expect that to extend beyond the turnout, not just be on it, and judging by the rodding and the connection this end we are seeing almost its full length.

 

And that level crossing gate with its lamp in the first shot is great.

 

Jonathan

[Phil Bullock]

Theres a thread here that might help

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54505-home-signal-position-relative-to-fpl-lock-bar/

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Swindon 123]

That photo' from page 86, C8927; I've had another look at it, and, as stated by Swindon 123, the first car is a class 104 DMBS in blue. Then, if you look at the leading end of the second car, you can just nicely see the end window of a class 104 TSL, which has also had it's roof vents removed. Finally, as I stated in post 2203, the last car is class 108 - the roof vents, 'lower positioned' side saloon windows, and tumblehome are all indicators of a class 108 car.

 

Please keep the photo's coming,

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

A good spot on the 104 trailer. The lack of roof vents was bugging me as to it's identity. With this new knowledge I have found that the Blue DMBS was part of Eastfield set 104456, (that looks to be the number in black on the front) in 1988. Part of this set was Cl104 TCL 59168. This vehicle was painted Blue/Grey livery, (along with two other TCL's). There is a good possibility that this is the identity of the trailer vehicle in the photo. I haven't been able to find out if the other two Blue/Grey TCL's, 59149 & 59206, ever got to Scotland. So it looks like the photo is of Eastfield set 104456, (53464+59168) plus an unidentified 108 DMS as a substitute power car, which will probably remain unidentified. Set 104456's normal formation had Cl104 DMC 53517 in place of the 108 and had been in that formation from 1984, first on the London Midland before moving to Scotland. 53517 is now preserved by the BRCW restoration group who have a great photo archive of these units and from whome some of the above information has been gleaned. There website can be found here. http://www.brcw.co.uk/#

 

 

Paul J.

[Oldddudders]

DaveF, on 02 Feb 2015 - 20:32, said:

Haresfield, on the Great Western this evening.

 

 

Would it be entirely churlish of me to suggest this might not be GWR, but Midland? ISTR MP 100 is about Standish Junction, presumably measured from Derby.

[The Stationmaster]

Would it be entirely churlish of me to suggest this might not be GWR, but Midland? ISTR MP 100 is about Standish Junction, presumably measured from Derby.

It is definitely Haresfield but you are sort of right about the MR origin as by the time of Dave's pics the line had been reduced to double track and the milepost mileages were MR not GWR.  However the line nearest the camera is on ex GWR formation being part of that Company's [original] South Wales Mainline