Newcastle Emlyn - Early goods rolling stock

[Anotheran]

In thinking about how I should go about building the station building I spent some time sizing some existing buildings on Google Earth and then mapping that to the OS 1:2500 maps in order to compare to the station building. I also went back to the pictures in GWR Journal 37 to see if I could count bricks. Indeed I can for a number of dimensions that should make my life a lot easier. More of that at a later date once I've done my maths.

 

However, in looking at the journal and browsing away from the building I was actually trying to research (like one does) I noticed a couple of things that make me quote some posts from 18 months ago! Two are my own and another two are from helpful individuals...

 

I could not see the point of the cross over in the bay platform, surely any engine would not go through the goods shed. 

The crossover in the bay platform is a puzzle as it doesn't appear on the OS maps (of any year between 1906 and 1974) but does appear on the signalling diagram of the station. Unfortunately I can't find any photos to corroborate its existence.
However, I do have a photo of the eastern end of the goods shed. The points at that end are so close to the shed that without the crossover in the bay to the west of the shed the engine would have had to enter the shed in order to get to the spur siding that goes east from the shed. I too saw this as unlikely to have been desired, so I saw this as circumstantial evidence pointing to the existence of the crossover...

Don't rely on OS maps for track layout: it was quite often the case that cross-overs etc were omitted. The signalling diagram is almost certainly correct.

Hi Mark, thanks for the comment. Yes, I fully agree. I have assumed that the signalling diagram was correct for two reasons. Firstly, I also see them as more reliable as an OS surveyor and secondly, because it makes my movements around my model far more interesting 

 

What I saw on one photo, from 1952, was a view showing the full length of the siding past the goods shed and cattle dock and into the bay. It matched the plan from the OS maps of 1906 and 1974, not that of the signalling diagram. This somewhat surprised me! In addition, on the same photo, and which I checked on other photos as well, was a clear stain from steam loco exhaust above the door at both ends of the goods shed, indicating that locomotives were run through there. This also surprised me. But, as I said 18 months ago, it would be required without the crossover.

 

I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be working in the shed when a loco passes through under steam. I expect drivers were under very clear instructions about how they should proceed, though the smoke stains indicate that they definitely cause some thickening of the atmosphere.

 

So having settled on putting the crossover in, I'm now going to take it out. While this may make some movements less interesting it won't detract much and will mean I run locos through the shed which is a bit different. As I'm looking to make as much as possible prototypical I don't want to leave in a phantom crossover just because I think that it should have been there! So in the near future there will be an update of the plan, again! It's a good job I'm so slow at actually building any permanent way!

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited June 6, 2016 by Anotheran

[Anotheran]

Oh dear, another month without an update. Well with the kids here and back at work there's not been much time. But today I made a start on the design for my station building. At the moment, it's only design work that I can easily get on with.

 

I've started counting bricks and decided to look at the easiest bits of the pictures to count first, the chimney stacks. I have a number of photographs that, between them, have allowed me to get an accurate picture of all of the stacks. Below is a diagram, done simply in MS Paint, of the various different stacks on the main chimney building. There are five stacks, of three different sizes. Arbitrarily I've numbered the western most one Stack 1 as having been born in Llanelli I know that West is Best. It also means that looking at the front of the station building, the non-platform side, or a map with North at the top, that they are numbered from the left... so it must be correct 😉

 

The colours are not meant to be representative, they're simply for diagrammatic purposes. My initial thinking is that I'll use an embossed plastic card for this model. I've never used any textures before. All of my previous models have been made from card with printed paper cover sheets. While they do look fairly effective nowadays I feel that I should give something different a try!

 

As I get a few minutes here and there I'll continue to post more of the output from my brick counting and gradually build up a picture of the whole of the station building!

 

If anyone is still actually looking at this thread I hope that this post hasn't put you off for good. I'd welcome any comments on my idea of setting off on the textured plastic card approach.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[BG John]

Being a standard GWR building, would it have been made with bricks from a local source, or from someone the GWR had a contract with? I've got a number of bricks here branded "Emlyn", but have no idea how old they are.

[Anotheran]

Being a standard GWR building, would it have been made with bricks from a local source, or from someone the GWR had a contract with? I've got a number of bricks here branded "Emlyn", but have no idea how old they are.

 

Hi John,

 

I was reading on that subject only a couple of days ago. The conclusions I have come to on the subject are that the GWR used lots of standard components for their buildings with elements that were shipped out to various far flung places. Hence the wooden elements of signal boxes, platform canopies and small line-side huts etc are all pretty much the same. However, while the layout/design of the main buildings were fairly consistent they did tend to utilise local materials. Hence you find station buildings that otherwise look the same in yellowish brick near London, Redder brick in mid Wales and stone in many places in Cornwall. So I'll be looking at the colour of suitable aged bricks in extant Newcastle Emlyn buildings in addition to the small number of colour photos of the station, in order to establish the correct brick colour.

 

As for your brick stamped Emlyn... the bricks section of Dave Sallery's http://www.penmorfa.com/ site lists bricks stamped Emlyn as originating from the Emlyn brick works of Pen-y-groes which was associated with the Emlyn colliery. The brickworks closed a long time after the colliery (in the 1990s). Your bricks could be from there, or they could indeed be from an otherwise unknown (to me) brickworks of the same name. But, if they are from that brickworks then I think it possible that the GWR would have used a more local source than Pen-y-groes for bricks to build the Newcastle Emlyn station, but it isn't that far away along the line to Carmarthen then up the branch to NE. I guess my question would be... where did you get them from? If you got them from the NE area then I'd be very interested in their colour!

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited June 8, 2016 by Anotheran

[BG John]

That's interesting. I'd assumed they were made locally, as they say Emlyn, and I'm two miles from Newcastle Emlyn! They were all found in my garden, or removed from dodgy alterations made to the house in the late 1960s. There's clay around here, in fact I squelch through it several times most days! I hadn't really looked at the bricks before, but the one I've just picked up is a rough old thing, with lots of black bits inside, so maybe it does come from a mining area.

[Anotheran]

That's interesting. I'd assumed they were made locally, as they say Emlyn, and I'm two miles from Newcastle Emlyn! 

 

I guess the question would be how local is locally? It's only 30 miles by road from Pen-y-Groes to Newcastle Emlyn so something built in the 60s or shortly before may well have used bricks from there. The fact that the brickworks closed so long after the colliery would mean they must have found a reasonable market for their product elsewhere. But equally there could possibly have been a more local brickworks that was named for the town of Newcastle Emlyn.

 

As for the black bits. I would have no idea if that would be as a result of the original clay having black bits from a mining area or artefacts of firing. I'm no expert... I just repeat what I read on-line  But at least now you have some interesting possibilities on the history of your bricks!

[BG John]

I doubt if they were new in the 60s. I can't imagine the owner who did the work would have bought anything new! The house is mid 19th century, so they could be any age.

[Fat Controller]

I guess the question would be how local is locally? It's only 30 miles by road from Pen-y-Groes to Newcastle Emlyn so something built in the 60s or shortly before may well have used bricks from there. The fact that the brickworks closed so long after the colliery would mean they must have found a reasonable market for their product elsewhere. But equally there could possibly have been a more local brickworks that was named for the town of Newcastle Emlyn.

 

As for the black bits. I would have no idea if that would be as a result of the original clay having black bits from a mining area or artefacts of firing. I'm no expert... I just repeat what I read on-line  But at least now you have some interesting possibilities on the history of your bricks!

The black flecks in the bricks are coal; for general bricks, clay would be mixed with coal, which would burn during the firing process. Brick-works are often found in association with collieries, as layers of clay are often discovered near coal seams. 

The brick works was still going in the 1990s:-

http://southwalesbricks.weebly.com/emlyn.html

[Anotheran]

Thank you FC. That answers two questions. The first is confirmation that the black is coal. The second is from following the link. The Emlyn Brick Company was formed in 1920, so 25 years after Newcastle Emlyn station was built. So there's no chance of their bricks being used in the building, even if they would have gone that far afield for materials. It also has a bunch of pictures that John can compare with his bricks. Maybe he'll be able to make a solid identification.

[BG John]

 It also has a bunch of pictures that John can compare with his bricks. Maybe he'll be able to make a solid identification.

Bottom right.

[ChrisN]

Have you seen the thread by Highlandman? He goes through how he builds his GWR station. 

 

Now you can see why it is older people who play with trains.     The knack is to get them interested so you can at least do something involving them although usually it will not be exactly what you want or to the same standard.  Having said that my son when he was ten made a Metcalffe cottage, using a scalpel, and three card layers.  He still is very proud of it, especially as now he understands how much skill was needed.  (I am proud as well.)

 

The other thing to do is find projects, like the station which you can work on and build as and when you have time.  Counting bricks seems a good start though.

[Anotheran]

Have you seen the thread by Highlandman? He goes through how he builds his GWR station. 

 

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks for the pointer. I hadn't seen the thread. I've taken a very quick look but will need to wait until after work and kids bedtime to go back and look in greater depth!

 

I fully take your point about "older people". But that was one thing I wanted to avoid. I wanted to at least get things started before I begin to get all those aches and pains etc. Though I expect lots of those will come with the children!

 

I agree with the small projects point. Building kits is one thing, though at the moment my kits and solvent are stored away. Hence counting bricks... I can do that with a couple of journal articles, some web photographs, a magnifying glass and the PC that I'm meant to be working on

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited June 9, 2016 by Anotheran

[Anotheran]

During my brick counting I have come across a peculiarity in colour that I assume is down to photographic chemistry...

 

Colour photos of the 1960s clearly show the station building to be of predominantly a red brick with blue brick highlights. Photographs of the East and West end walls of 1906 and 1910 respectively show the blue bricks rendering significantly lighter than the red in the monochrome print. Photographs from the 1940s and 1950s show them indistinguishable in the black and white. Finally a monochrome shot from the mid 60s shows the blue significantly darker than the red. My assumption is that chemical changes in the processing of negatives and prints accounts for the difference, or am I missing something here? I can't find any reference to pre-1922 GWR painting highlight bricks in light colours and I really can't imagine why it would be done.

 

Any comment supporting or contradicting my assumptions would be welcome. But either way I have my main colours... Red and blue. I just need to get the right shades now.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Edited to change darker to lighter in the sentence about the early photos... sort of gives a meaning to my question when I get it right!

Edited June 11, 2016 by Anotheran

[corneliuslundie]

I am not sure of the date of NE station (and too far from home and too lazy to find out!) but there are two "standard "GWR designs of the late 19th and early 20th century. One I looked at carefully before I decided that the station was too big was Nelson & Llancaiach. That had red and blue bricks. One significant difference between the two designs is the way the roof and canopy are constructed. While the two designs were usually in brick I seem to remember that Lambourn was similar but in timber, presumably because of ground conditions. so if there are bits of NE you can't sort out you may well be able to find the same details on other stations.

Where the GWR got its bricks at this time I a am not sure. Some certainly came from Ruabon (a darkish red and hard) but I am sure there must have been other sources.

And of course there were always a few which were nonstandard.

Jonathan

[Anotheran]

Thanks for that Jonathan. That's a useful pointer to the fact that there were two standards around that time.

 

NE was opened in 1895. It had the normal hipped roof, but the canopy looks out of proportion to the building. It's as wide as, if not wider than, the building in order to cover the full width of the platform. Almost flat (sloping imperceptibly in most photographs towards the building) and with valancing that gets longer in a curve as you move along the ends away from the track towards the wall. There are no pillars, so the whole massive structure had to have been supported by cantilever and brackets. I can't make any of that out from photos as the areas under the canopy are all too dark, so I'll follow your lead and look elsewhere for that.

 

The roof, which I'm not looking forward to as a this will be my first scratch model, was a hipped structure with skylights at each end. The plan of the building overall is the same as I've seen elsewhere, though maybe not the precise lengths. I also have an article that describes what was in the building from one end to the other, which matches the number of doors that I can dimly see in one photo. So again, as I know what was there, I can look at other examples to see exactly how they should be detailed.

 

I know that I'll need the darkish red, hard bricks as well as the blue. So I'll be looking out for examples from which I can copy the colours.

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited June 16, 2016 by Anotheran

[corneliuslundie]

I have a good set of photos of N&C station taken by Bob Marrows, but they are at home and I cannot get at them until early July. However, the following link may be useful:

http://www.treharrisdistrict.co.uk/the-railways/railways-trelewis/

There is one photo of the station building on the south side of the line from the end from which you may be able to see the design. It was opened in 1912 so your station may well be the other design. N&C actually has a flat roof to the building under the canopy.

I thought I would look for photos of NE station. One I found was on this site:http://www.iteifi.co.uk/do/carmarthenshire/58-hanes-emlyn-history/

I am sure you must know the site but it seems to confirm my thinking that NE is the other standard style, unless I am very confused. So it may well be worth looking at stations on the other lines the GWR was building around 1895 such as the lines from Wootton Bassett to the Severn Tunnel though this did not open until 1903 and the stations on the line between Stert and Westbury.

Jonathan

[Quarryscapes]

During my brick counting I have come across a peculiarity in colour that I assume is down to photographic chemistry...

 

Colour photos of the 1960s clearly show the station building to be of predominantly a red brick with blue brick highlights. Photographs of the East and West end walls of 1906 and 1910 respectively show the blue bricks rendering significantly lighter than the red in the monochrome print. Photographs from the 1940s and 1950s show them indistinguishable in the black and white. Finally a monochrome shot from the mid 60s shows the blue significantly darker than the red. My assumption is that chemical changes in the processing of negatives and prints accounts for the difference, or am I missing something here? I can't find any reference to pre-1922 GWR painting highlight bricks in light colours and I really can't imagine why it would be done.

 

Any comment supporting or contradicting my assumptions would be welcome. But either way I have my main colours... Red and blue. I just need to get the right shades now.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Edited to change darker to lighter in the sentence about the early photos... sort of gives a meaning to my question when I get it right!

 

Orthochromatic vs Panchromatic emulsions, truly panchromatic emulsions are a recent thing, Most B&W film that is available even today is not truly panchromatic, which is what gives individual films their individual style. Ortho emulsions were the norm in the Victorian/Edwardian era. 

 

Look through any railway history book and you'll generally find the quality of photography decreases the closer to the present you get as you move from the hardy Victorian professional with a large format view camera and hand coated ortho glass plate negatives to the box brownies and point and shoot running cheapo B&W 35mm film in the hands of the masses. 

[Anotheran]

So almost another month since my last update. I've not really progressed, but I thought there were two small things worthy of a post (well almost anyway).

 

The first is that I have updated my diagram of the main station building stacks to a much closer colour to the originals, of which I have also included small photographic elements for reference. I can't believe I'm getting so excited about five stacks that will only be about 30 mm long! I'm not going to weather the image though... that can wait for the physical build!

The second point is more one of amusement. Whilst browsing for somewhere to spend a week with the family I clicked on a property that I liked the look of and there it was... closest town Newcastle Emlyn. Not sure I'll get away with it as I know they really want to be close (as in a short walk or very short drive) to the beach. But I may end up on a research trip with the kids.

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Anotheran]

I thought I would look for photos of NE station. One I found was on this site:http://www.iteifi.co.uk/do/carmarthenshire/58-hanes-emlyn-history/ I am sure you must know the site but it seems to confirm my thinking that NE is the other standard style, unless I am very confused.

 

Sorry Jonathan, very rude of me not to reply sooner. Thank you for this. I have indeed seen the site, and also have a copy of the photo from other sources, but it's good to be reminded of the site as the photo of the GWR bus is one that I need to remember for detail of the scene later. I actually have a reasonable number of the station that will mean that I can get a fairly good representation. The only bits I will struggle with are the exact details under the canopy as that area is often too dark for details, or blocked from view by an inconsiderate driver who has parked his train right in the way! The other element was the colour of the bricks, but I think I'm on that one now!

 

Kind regards, Neil

[BG John]

The second point is more one of amusement. Whilst browsing for somewhere to spend a week with the family I clicked on a property that I liked the look of and there it was... closest town Newcastle Emlyn. Not sure I'll get away with it as I know they really want to be close (as in a short walk or very short drive) to the beach. But I may end up on a research trip with the kids.

There are some parts of the River Teifi near Emlyn that look a little bit like a beach. When the water is at the right level, and if your eyesight isn't too good! Otherwise it's not that far to some real beaches, or from some real beaches if you're forced to stay near one!

[Fat Controller]

There are some parts of the River Teifi near Emlyn that look a little bit like a beach. When the water is at the right level, and if your eyesight isn't too good! Otherwise it's not that far to some real beaches, or from some real beaches if you're forced to stay near one!

As kids, we used to love Cenarth Falls, a spit outside Newcastle Emlyn. Depending on their age, they might also enjoy the Dolau Cothi gold mines, which are a bit further away. As for the coast; it's not that far to Gwbert, on the mouth of the Teifi.

Tell them to watch out for the enormous black beetles..The traditional way of carrying a coracle (still used for fishing around there) is to put it on your back, almost covering your head. My great-uncle, who was from Tasmania via West Brom, famously walked into the police station in Newcastle Emlyn, claiming he'd almost run over an enormous black beetle. 

[Anotheran]

Well we didn't make it over to the NE environs. Made it into Wales on a couple of occasions though, a couple of days in mid Wales around Builth and then Hay, and a day trip to Conwy Castle followed by the evening on Llandudno West beach. So no chance to take any appropriate pictures for the project. Nothing really in the way of modelling either unless you count sorting out the various boxes that contain my modelling stuff in a vain attempt to make it easier to do something of an evening. That will come in time. For now though it's just onward with the counting of bricks.

[Anotheran]

I've now got further with the design of the main station building. From photos I've been able to get a good idea of the layout of the two ends (East and West) and a slightly less good (as in slightly more guesswork) idea of the Northern, platform facing, side. So counting bricks again has given me the following:

 

 

You really need to click on it to see the detail as it's a pretty long building! I've labelled all of the doors as per the prototype building. Most of the windows I am confident with, but I can't see any indication of windows on the platform side of the general waiting room, which seems odd to me. I'm going to have to seek more images to be sure, but for now there's none in there.

 

I've not done the South, road facing, side yet. That's got more in the way of architectural interest rather than just a long straight wall. I've got less detail in the pictures of this, but at least I know how long it is and the sort of ratios of dimensions from other station buildings as well as the location of doors on the North side to match the rooms up. I'll get on to that one soon, but thought after so long that it was about time that I posted something.

 

My current thinking is that I'll end up building two of these. One in GWR colours and one in BR WR colours to allow me to swap them out when changing era. I can also then make the station building generally look a bit more tired with the second one as well.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Anotheran]

Just realised that even when you click on the image that the labels aren't legible. So for anyone that's interested the ones directly under the North facade read from left to right: Gentleman's lavatory (the door for this is on the East face), Ladies waiting room and lavatory, General waiting room, Station master's office, Parcels office, Booking office, Booking hall, Passenger guard's room, Store room (the door for this is on the West face). The rulers/scales are labelled as 6' (24 mm).

[ChrisN]

It is good to see you doing something again.  Do not let the lack of progress frustrate you.  We often say about people who get really upset about some form of modelling, "It is only a hobby."  It will as time goes on be a nice break from the important things of life and you will get there in the end.

 

Hope all is going well