The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[stuclark]

If someone were to donate a couple of million quid, APT-E could run again.

 

From what I understood when talking to Kit at Warley, there's nothing fundamentally wrong that can't be cured with money. Yes, turbines are in short supply, but they can be re-built or re-engineered with enough cash.

 

...the Vulcan flew again and I've personally restored very large steam (pumping) engines which people said could never work again; so never say never for APT-E

 

Actually, I bet "P train" could run again as well with enough cash...

[Mr_Tilt]

The never ending question..............

 

As many have said money, or lack of it, is half of the biggest problem, the other half being the lack of expertise on the various bits and pieces. It's a tad galling when we see the NRM spending £4m or so on 4472 and they begrudge us a few quid for the entry balconies for the Trailer Cars....

 

While I'm pretty certain I could get at least TC2 and PC2 tilting again, given enough cash for new and refurbished bits, but that's just a tiny part of the expertise we'd need. There's no-one available who could sort out the turbines, alternators, and other traction equipment, and E-Train's not like '558 where they had a large pool of ex-Vulcan ground crew to draw from. The RAF had over 130 Vulcans in service, but there's only one E-Train, we had seven people in Tilt Development at maximum, and the other sections were similarly lowly manned, so there just isn't a pool of knowledge to draw on in our case.

 

The issue of the cables is another major problem, the contractors literally hacksawed through the cable bundles on the ends of the steering beams, and that was six different bundles, each of around 20 cables, each with up to 24 cores. That's a LOT of wires to identify and re-connect, not to mention the fact that they'd need extending now.

 

I could go on but I think you get the gist of it by now. 

[Wolf27]

Your just not committed to this are you Kit!

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[JSpencer]

A jet engine and an old steam pump are two very different things. A jet engine is made to very tight tolerances, using finely made parts that will be pushed to their material limits when in use. They use very expensive heat resistant materials that have to undergo a lot of QC checks. Sure it can be done but the money, specialised skills and technology for it are great.

On the other hand a 19th century steam pump, is really rustic in comparison, heavily over engineered and will almost last forever. It uses quite common materials. Perhaps you might to scratch around to find someone still making cast iron but it should still be easier to find, and in the worst case there are cast steel of brass substitutes. The problem with building or restoring anything these days that dates from the steam age is simulating the original construction process and materials.

Steels in the 1930s were manufactured to strengths of + or - 2%. In the Second World War it became + or - 10% because basically we needed lots of steel now that was not going to last long! These days we are finer than that.

Recently a replica working canon from that used in a Elizabethan warship was found to be much much stronger than as they were historically stated. While the material itself is the same on paper, modern manufacturing processes optimised the design. We have much finer control in making the material itself, while no one these days is going to cut a canon bore by hand and we can make the bore dead centre. All of which removed any potential weaknesses in the material itself or caused by part of the bore being off centre along a part of its length.

They got a Vulcan flying for a short time. But this shows the economics. For the price of restoring an APT-E to working order, we could probably bring back several diesel or steam locomotives.

If we take turbomotive as a comparison, while she was a tad cheaper in day to day running, she cost three times as much to build compared with an ordinary Princess primarily because of the costs in making steam turbines vs ordinary pistons.

 

Sure I would love to see APT-E run again, but I would also like to see HMS Hermes saved or a Type 12 frigate. Unfortunately finding big donators for these things is very problematical. It would probably be easier to bring APT-P back but even that looks far off.

[Salmotrutta]

The never ending question..............

 

As many have said money, or lack of it, is half of the biggest problem, the other half being the lack of expertise on the various bits and pieces. It's a tad galling when we see the NRM spending £4m or so on 4472 and they begrudge us a few quid for the entry balconies for the Trailer Cars....

 

While I'm pretty certain I could get at least TC2 and PC2 tilting again, given enough cash for new and refurbished bits, but that's just a tiny part of the expertise we'd need. There's no-one available who could sort out the turbines, alternators, and other traction equipment, and E-Train's not like '558 where they had a large pool of ex-Vulcan ground crew to draw from. The RAF had over 130 Vulcans in service, but there's only one E-Train, we had seven people in Tilt Development at maximum, and the other sections were similarly lowly manned, so there just isn't a pool of knowledge to draw on in our case.

 

The issue of the cables is another major problem, the contractors literally hacksawed through the cable bundles on the ends of the steering beams, and that was six different bundles, each of around 20 cables, each with up to 24 cores. That's a LOT of wires to identify and re-connect, not to mention the fact that they'd need extending now.

 

I could go on but I think you get the gist of it by now. 

Perhaps we could connect up a Loksound V4 to a stack of amplifiers and run that next to it so we get the full-on turbine experience!

[Mr_Tilt]

Your just not committed to this are you Kit!

 

Cheers

 

Shane

 

Not as much as the NRM are to preserving kettles, no................ 

[LaGrange]

 

 

and E-Train's not like '558 where they had a large pool of ex-Vulcan ground crew to draw from. The RAF had over 130 Vulcans in service, but there's only one E-Train, we had seven people in Tilt Development at maximum, and the other sections were similarly lowly manned, so there just isn't a pool of knowledge to draw on in our case.

 

 

There were also 4 unused engines that were fitted when it was returned to flight along with some spares - which were also used up. If those engines had not been available the Vulcan would not have flown again

 

Its the perennial dream really

Edited April 20, 2016 by LaGrange

[Andy Y]

Even if it could run again what would be the benefit? It's not like you can fit a few hundred fare-paying passengers in and head off somewhere. Or run it at 25mph max on a preserved line?

 

However the Support & Conservation group do merit backing for their achievable aims.

[LaGrange]

Even it could run again what would be the benefit? It's not like you can fit a few hundred fare-paying passengers in and head off somewhere. Or run it at 25mph max on a preserved line?

 

However the Support & Conservation group do merit backing for their achievable aims.

Indeed - it served its purpose well.

 

Having worked in railway preservation there is a large degree of realism required

[Jitmen]

When was the last time apt-e had it's engines running?

[modelpara]

When was the last time apt-e had it's engines running?

I believe the day it arrived at NRM

[Colin_McLeod]

Even if it could run again what would be the benefit? It's not like you can fit a few hundred fare-paying passengers in and head off somewhere.

Andy the solution is to also preserve some of those additional trailer coaches.

[jjb1970]

The problem with the gas turbines is probably spares availability. Gas turbines are really a pretty basic technology, in many ways built to far less demanding tolerances than diesel engines and very tolerant of fuel. The materials tend to be quite high end, but these GTs pre-date the development of the sort of super alloys that modern high performance aero jet engines rely on to work. If the rotors are still good then I think getting the engines running would be doable as there is not the same certification and dependability issues as for an aero engine. I suspect a much bigger problem would be the electrical and control systems. If the money is there you can do most things, it is more a question of whether it would be sensible to spend that much on a project like this.

[Mr_Tilt]

I believe the day it arrived at NRM

 

Correct, the 11th June 1976.

 

If I could find the final log book I could tell you the exact time they shut down too. 

 

As I've mentioned previously, we do have two zero hour turbines, currently mounted on test stands, that were the last two turbines that Leyland refurbished, so those two should be in almost perfect condition but the train couldn't run on only two, and we don't have enough documentation to install them really. 

[Jitmen]

I suppose we should be grateful it's preserved and looks great at locomotion.

[modelpara]

I suppose we should be grateful it's preserved and looks great at locomotion.

And in model form !

[Mr_Tilt]

I suppose we should be grateful it's preserved and looks great at locomotion.

 

It's down to Paul Leadley really, if he hadn't kept on at the NRM during the late 90s they'd have scrapped E-Train then. And that's not a joke, they really WERE intending to scrap it. 

 

The Conservation & Support Group managed to do some urgent external work on the train out in the South Yard at York for five years before the move to Shildon in 2005, but much of the stuff that you can see now didn't happen until 2010 when we could start real work on the interior under cover at Shildon. Compared with many restoration groups the E-Train Group is pretty small in number, IIRC Paul said on the 3D scan event video that 45 was about the  maximum number of people we'd ever had working on the job, and that was in the York years. Nowadays it's a lot smaller group, I'm 250 miles away from it and it's not easy for me to get up there at all, more's the pity. 

[Pete the Elaner]

It's down to Paul Leadley really, if he hadn't kept on at the NRM during the late 90s they'd have scrapped E-Train then. And that's not a joke, they really WERE intending to scrap it. 

That's quite a shocking thought..to preserve something for 20+ years then scrap it.

This is a significant part of our railway history but in a different way to many of the steam locos which are kept cosmetically in good condition but are never likely to run again.

Thinking back to its days outside the NRM it did look badly neglected. It looks much better at Shildon now it has had some attention.

[stuclark]

A jet engine and an old steam pump are two very different things. A jet engine is made to very tight tolerances, using finely made parts that will be pushed to their material limits when in use. They use very expensive heat resistant materials that have to undergo a lot of QC checks. Sure it can be done but the money, specialised skills and technology for it are great.

On the other hand a 19th century steam pump, is really rustic in comparison, heavily over engineered and will almost last forever. It uses quite common materials. Perhaps you might to scratch around to find someone still making cast iron but it should still be easier to find, and in the worst case there are cast steel of brass substitutes. The problem with building or restoring anything these days that dates from the steam age is simulating the original construction process and materials.

Steels in the 1930s were manufactured to strengths of + or - 2%. In the Second World War it became + or - 10% because basically we needed lots of steel now that was not going to last long! These days we are finer than that.

Recently a replica working canon from that used in a Elizabethan warship was found to be much much stronger than as they were historically stated. While the material itself is the same on paper, modern manufacturing processes optimised the design. We have much finer control in making the material itself, while no one these days is going to cut a canon bore by hand and we can make the bore dead centre. All of which removed any potential weaknesses in the material itself or caused by part of the bore being off centre along a part of its length.

They got a Vulcan flying for a short time. But this shows the economics. For the price of restoring an APT-E to working order, we could probably bring back several diesel or steam locomotives.

If we take turbomotive as a comparison, while she was a tad cheaper in day to day running, she cost three times as much to build compared with an ordinary Princess primarily because of the costs in making steam turbines vs ordinary pistons.

 

Sure I would love to see APT-E run again, but I would also like to see HMS Hermes saved or a Type 12 frigate. Unfortunately finding big donators for these things is very problematical. It would probably be easier to bring APT-P back but even that looks far off.

I'm  not saying they are the same thing; but to think that a steam pump which has a 90 inch diameter piston; weighing a total of about 200 tons and able to move over 500 gallons of water in under 4 seconds is a "rustic" toy is very much mistaken. No, the engineering tollerances are not the same, but a lot of the theory is - it's about sourcing or re-making parts where they're not available, and finding expertise to acheive your goals.

 

Kit says there's no one around who worked on the traction systems - that's a great big issue; but ... there are people in the world with enough experience in turbine / alternator sets and associated technologies to be able to essentially re-engineer what exists. The biggest issue with this is money.

 

It would not be impossible (only expensive and complicated) to completely re-engineer PC1 with modern turbines and control equipment. No it wouldn't be authentic, but it would be operational. .... just an item for discussion ...

 

(oh, and as someone who actually drove 4472 when Tony Marchington owned her; I can't understand how the NRM managed to spend quite so much money on the restoration (Tony spent almost £2m restoring her in '99) - serious mis-management springs to mind)

[Colin_McLeod]

It would not be impossible (only expensive and complicated) to completely re-engineer PC1 with modern turbines and control equipment. No it wouldn't be authentic, but it would be operational. .... just an item for discussion ...

 

 

If re-engineering the APT-E were to be considered does it have to be turbine? 

[Mr_Tilt]

 

That's quite a shocking thought..to preserve something for 20+ years then scrap it.

This is a significant part of our railway history but in a different way to many of the steam locos which are kept cosmetically in good condition but are never likely to run again.

Thinking back to its days outside the NRM it did look badly neglected. It looks much better at Shildon now it has had some attention.

 

The NRM didn't 'preserve' E-Train, they just abandoned it to the elements, albeit giving it some space to rest in, as you noted in your last sentence. 

 

 

If re-engineering the APT-E were to be considered does it have to be turbine? 

 

Perish the thought of doing anything else!

 

The turbines were the essence of the APT project to start off with, producing the high power/weight ration that the train needed. Apart from a rocket engine (yeah, right..........) I can't think of anything else that could do the job, and it wouldn't be E-Train without that 'whine-whistle-roar', would it?

[Phil Parker]

If re-engineering the APT-E were to be considered does it have to be turbine? 

 

Pointy loco. Needs new motive power. Hold on, I've got an idea!

 

[Mr_Tilt]

Pointy loco. Needs new motive power. Hold on, I've got an idea!

 

turbocar.jpg

 

Didn't the DB try that a few years, er, decades ago? Hm, it seems it was the DR, Deutsche Reichsbahn, not DB in those days.

 

 

 

Then there was the Bennie Railplane too, in Scotland.

 

 

 

Even the Russians had a go, with TWO engines even!

 

 

But none of them were turbine powered........... 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Mr_Tilt

[dibber25]

That's quite a shocking thought..to preserve something for 20+ years then scrap it.

This is a significant part of our railway history but in a different way to many of the steam locos which are kept cosmetically in good condition but are never likely to run again.

Thinking back to its days outside the NRM it did look badly neglected. It looks much better at Shildon now it has had some attention.

The NRM has not been shy of scrapping or disposing of exhibits over the years. I believe the prototype Mk2 coach was scrapped for no other reason than it had a moth infestation in the upholstery which was going to cost money to cure. The NRM has far more exhibits than it can afford to display or maintain and the Shildon outstation only really came about as a way of storing some of those exhibits. One could question the policy of filling York with sales stalls in place of exhibits but its a case of finding a balance between conserving the collection and making enough income to do so. (CJL)

[Guest spet0114]

13252 has been scrapped?