Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Thanks Clive.

 

Alycidon" looked (and sounded) superb. The train even stopped in the station, which I wasn't expecting. Got a good throat-full of Napier exhaust.

Photos on the "Dorset Deltic" thread.....

[danstercivicman]

Really looking forward to seeing this develop! 

[5BarVT]

Charlie the signalman is now moaning that the lever for the trap point is right down the other end of the frame.

And so he should.

Are your numbers notional, or actual allocation? From the depuction of the signals I am assuming a miniature lever frame and only one signalman (rather than one for each side)?

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

And so he should.

Are your numbers notional, or actual allocation? From the depuction of the signals I am assuming a miniature lever frame and only one signalman (rather than one for each side)?

Paul.

Hi Paul

 

I don't know if Charlie has any mates with him in the box, he may do as one for each side sounds about right.

 

The signalling, hopefully, will be based on LMS/Westinghouse style signals as installed at Manchester Exchange and Victoria in 1929. The numbering is made up by me, as it is a fictitious location, what I have tired to do is number the points and signals as close to how a real railway would arrange things but mainly to find out how many leavers and the the size of the signal box to house them. I did think that the levers could possibly be arranged so that the L&YR signals be at one end and the GNR the other with the points in the middle shared between the signalmen, rather than how I have numbered them departure signals, points then arrival signals, with the trap point as an after thought stuck on the end.  There should be additional levers for the outer homes and possibly the distant signals.

 

I have just had a little thought as to the staffing of the box. There would be Charlie and his mate, the book boy, Mr Walpole the senior signalman supervising them, Mike and Eric to make sure what they have installed works, Dave on an official visit, Natalie being trained.......crikey there will be more people in the box than on the station :no:

Edited October 21, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[5BarVT]

I think one man per side is probably right and my gut feel is that the levers would be arranged for each. Lime St, a bit later but still Westinghouse, had a very clever way of saving levers. I think I have details and I’m sure that others on here will have even if I don’t. Would you be interested in further info?

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

I think one man per side is probably right and my gut feel is that the levers would be arranged for each. Lime St, a bit later but still Westinghouse, had a very clever way of saving levers. I think I have details and I’m sure that others on here will have even if I don’t. Would you be interested in further info?

Paul.

Hi Paul

 

Thank you for the offer, it sounds interesting even if it doesn't materialise on the layout. As I say I want Westinghouse/LMS style colour light signalling mainly to be slightly visually different but to show that there was earlier colour light signalling than what most "modern image" layouts show, and put a bit of history into me train set. The lever count is so I build the right size signal box with the right size frame in it. I hate seeing layouts with the wrong size ready to plonk box that either has zillions of spare levers or levers that work more than one signal. It is a nice touch especially on mechanical boxes if the lever colours match the signals they operate. Too many modellers paint them, in my mind, willy-nilly. 

 

I still have to experiment with making the small shunt signals. I will not be making the route indicators working, the Westinghouse type were fitted with projectors and could display up to 13 routes, as these are facing the road bridge (and the wall) so would be very difficult to see, I am going to have just dummies.

[MarshLane]

I think one man per side is probably right and my gut feel is that the levers would be arranged for each. Lime St, a bit later but still Westinghouse, had a very clever way of saving levers. I think I have details and I’m sure that others on here will have even if I don’t. Would you be interested in further info?

Paul.

 

Hi Paul/Clive,

Yes Lime Street is an interesting Westinghouse box - the levers are signal levers, rather than route ones.  Traditionally, each signal would have a lever for each route.  So taking an example of a colour light that indicates the straight ahead route into Platform 2, but also has a feather at position 1 for the left hand route into Platform 1, and another feather at position 4 for the right hand route into Platform 3, that would be three levers, in addition to the individual levers for points.

 

At Lime Street, the points set up the route as normal, but then the route proving electrics, advise the signaller which destination point is set up, there is then one single lever to clear the signal, which shows the appropriate aspect and feather or theatre indication as normal.

 

For example, this is Lime Street box:

 

And this is an example of the route setting:

 

So in this example, the combination of point levers 35, 48, 49, 50, 51 and 54 are set and the route has been proven (through the point blade detection) into Platform 1.  So if the signaller clears the appropriate signal lever, it will display the proceed aspect and the theatre indicator for Platform 1 to the driver.

 

Thats how it will work on my reproduction miniature lever frame too when the layout is completed!

 

Somebody a bit more knowledgable may explain it better, but I think I'm right!  Both are my photos so no copyright issues with me using them!

 

Rich

Edited October 22, 2017 by MarshLane

[Clive Mortimore]

Nothing to do with my layout, well lack of progress but what I grew up trainspotting, Peaks, Bo-Bos and Derby bogs.

[John Tomlinson]

Coo, reminds us why we're in the hobby!

 

John.

[Andrew P]

Nothing to do with my layout, well lack of progress but what I grew up trainspotting, Peaks, Bo-Bos and Derby bogs.

Boeing Stratocruisers, Caravells, Dakotas, Viscount's, Vangauard's, Lockhead's,  from the likes of BEA, BOAC, Pan Am, Dan Air, Lufthansa, Air France, Swissair, KLM, Air Lingus, Air Canada, and many more were far more interesting to this 11 year old in 1961 Plane Spotting at Heathrows Queens, Buildings. My mate and I would go from Addlestone, on our own, by Train, (Electric I think) to Stains, and Free Bus to the Queens Buildings.

 

Great way to spend a Saturday.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Paul/Clive,

Yes Lime Street is an interesting Westinghouse box - the levers are signal levers, rather than route ones.  Traditionally, each signal would have a lever for each route.  So taking an example of a colour light that indicates the straight ahead route into Platform 2, but also has a feather at position 1 for the left hand route into Platform 1, and another feather at position 4 for the right hand route into Platform 3, that would be three levers, in addition to the individual levers for points.

 

At Lime Street, the points set up the route as normal, but then the route proving electrics, advise the signaller which destination point is set up, there is then one single lever to clear the signal, which shows the appropriate aspect and feather or theatre indication as normal.

 

For example, this is Lime Street box:

IU20170921-DSC_0474.jpg

 

And this is an example of the route setting:

IU20170921-DSC_0497.jpg

 

So in this example, the combination of point levers 35, 48, 49, 50, 51 and 54 are set and the route has been proven (through the point blade detection) into Platform 1.  So if the signaller clears the appropriate signal lever, it will display the proceed aspect and the theatre indicator for Platform 1 to the driver.

 

Thats how it will work on my reproduction miniature lever frame too when the layout is completed!

 

Somebody a bit more knowledgable may explain it better, but I think I'm right!  Both are my photos so no copyright issues with me using them!

 

Rich

Hi Rich

 

Thanks. I think I have it, where I have 8 or 9 levers for each route displayed by the (non-woring) route indicators, using the Lime Street set up I would only need one as the electrics associated with the points would automatically sort out which route would be displayed by the route indicator. Meaning in model terms a smaller signal box because the frame is shorter. And Charlie doesn't have so far to walk to pull the lever for the trap point that Peter reminded me I needed.     

 

If I am barking up the wrong tree it might be easier to explain it over a cuppa and cake on Sunday.

 

[MarshLane]

Hi Rich

 

Thanks. I think I have it, where I have 8 or 9 levers for each route displayed by the (non-woring) route indicators, using the Lime Street set up I would only need one as the electrics associated with the points would automatically sort out which route would be displayed by the route indicator. Meaning in model terms a smaller signal box because the frame is shorter. And Charlie doesn't have so far to walk to pull the lever for the trap point that Peter reminded me I needed.   

 

If I am barking up the wrong tree it might be easier to explain it over a cuppa and cake on Sunday.

 

 

Hi Clive,

Yes basically right!  Im sure Charlie, and the bank manager that funds his shoe leather would be very grateful  Either way, a cuppa and cake sounds good!  

 

Rich

[The Stationmaster]

It needs to be a wide-to-gauge trap point in that position Clive (and the shunt signals should of course be by the toe of the point).

 

As far as the rest of it is concerned I rather like it however I would expect to see a few more ground shunt signals - particularly at the toes of 48 and 55 paying homage to the old idea that you should go no further than you need to when making a shunting move.  Long distance shunts to signals half a mile away is quite a modern idea and the old fellahs would be aghast at having to trail off that far to drop an engine or van onto a train.

 

I'm not so sure about a route indicator on the shunt (were there any at Manchester Exchange/Victoria? (I can't recall seeing any there but didn't see all the shunt signals anyway).  Overall it was always going to be a complex one to signal and I like the way you have done it with a sort of halfway house between modern signal spacing and the type of signals you're using, great stuff. 

 

Incifdentally the Westinghouse L frame at Lime Street follows typical practice of the period as used on the LMS and SR - one lever per signal irrespective of how many routes it reads to and the same arrangement applied on the Manchester Victoria and Exchange scheme.  To follow that sort of lever arrangement - which would obviously shorten your lever frame - would require some sort of selection system where you use two signal heads but I wonder if the added complexity of incorporating it would be worth the reduced number of levers?  The choice on that is down to you

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Clive Mortimore]

It needs to be a wide-to-gauge trap point in that position Clive (and the shunt signals should of course be by the toe of the point).

 

As far as the rest of it is concerned I rather like it however I would expect to see a few more ground shunt signals - particularly at the toes of 48 and 55 paying homage to the old idea that you should go no further than you need to when making a shunting move.  Long distance shunts to signals half a mile away is quite a modern idea and the old fellahs would be aghast at having to trail off that far to drop an engine or van onto a train.

 

I'm not so sure about a route indicator on the shunt (were there any at Manchester Exchange/Victoria? (I can't recall seeing any there but didn't see all the shunt signals anyway).  Overall it was always going to be a complex one to signal and I like the way you have done it with a sort of halfway house between modern signal spacing and the type of signals you're using, great stuff. 

 

Incifdentally the Westinghouse L frame at Lime Street follows typical practice of the period as used on the LMS and SR - one lever per signal irrespective of how many routes it reads to and the same arrangement applied on the Manchester Victoria and Exchange scheme.  To follow that sort of lever arrangement - which would obviously shorten your lever frame - would require some sort of selection system where you use two signal heads but I wonder if the added complexity of incorporating it would be worth the reduced number of levers?  The choice on that is down to you

Hi Mike

 

Thank you for taking the time to look at my signal plan. The drawing shows the arrangement I was thinking for the signals as a train enters the station.

 

The photos in the Warburton article in LMS Journal no 23 shows a few post with both shunt and main signals with a route indicator, I took it the route indicator applied to both when looking at the signal plans for  Manchester Victoria and Exchange. And my logic said why not for a shunt signal on its own. Again referring to the Warburton article, he states that the Westinghouse route indicator projectors could show up to 13 routes because I was thinking on the lines of two signal heads until I read that. They were not a great success owning to them having difficulty being read in low sun light.

 

The other night I was reading about Liverpool Lime Street lever frame and the way the web page was worded indicated up it being installed in 1948 other Westinghouse frames used a lever for each signaled route. I will re-read it to make sure. The important thing to me is getting the box size right and the only way to do that is by knowing the number of levers. 

 

I will have a bash at redrawing the plan with additional shunt signals.

 

Charile is not impressed, not only does he have to go down the far end of the frame but he has to do the splits as well to operate the trap point. I did think that was the type of trap so that any independently minded van or coach wouldn't be able to go sideways into the platform road but find itself in the ballast should it want to go for a wander. I have given some thought how to make an operating one.

 

Thanks again.

[5BarVT]

I have given some thought how to make an operating one.

With difficulty I guess, just like it is on the big railway because they move in opposite directions to each other.

 

Going back to the L frames, both Deal St (Exchange) and Lime St as well as using one lever per signal for junction signals also used one lever per group of signals with a common destination. The examples I can see on the L frame web site for Deal St are all nice and simple as only one common destination exists. Lime St is more complicated (like your plan) as some platforms read to two destinations. I haven't yet got enough detail of the pull plates to sort out what is going on.

 

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

Clive I suppose the next thing I'll have to do is delve out and scan my photo of an illuminated projector type route indicator at Manchester Exchange.  The light level was fairly low but the indication was clear enough even on Kodak Tri-X.

[Budgie]

Charile is not impressed, not only does he have to go down the far end of the frame but he has to do the splits as well to operate the trap point. I did think that was the type of trap so that any independently minded van or coach wouldn't be able to go sideways into the platform road but find itself in the ballast should it want to go for a wander. I have given some thought how to make an operating one.

Why does the lever for the trap points have to be at the far end of the frame? Why not put it in the middle?

[Regularity]

Why does the lever for the trap points have to be at the far end of the frame? Why not put it in the middle?

Actually, why not simply operate the appropriate trap blade from the lever giving access to the road? No extra levers required.

[Clive Mortimore]

Why does the lever for the trap points have to be at the far end of the frame? Why not put it in the middle?

Hi Budgie

 

It would be but as I added it to the frame after Peter suggested it. I did it and it took the highest number instead of me renumbering half the points and signals so I jokingly said Charlie the signalman was not happy having to keep walking all the way down to the far end to change it. My mistake.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

With difficulty I guess, just like it is on the big railway because they move in opposite directions to each other.

 

Going back to the L frames, both Deal St (Exchange) and Lime St as well as using one lever per signal for junction signals also used one lever per group of signals with a common destination. The examples I can see on the L frame web site for Deal St are all nice and simple as only one common destination exists. Lime St is more complicated (like your plan) as some platforms read to two destinations. I haven't yet got enough detail of the pull plates to sort out what is going on.

 

Paul.

Hi Paul

 

Tanks for your input. The Manchester resignalling was done using K frames. K frames were mechanically locked, not electrically locked like L frames. It was possible to use the electrical circuitry of a L frame to do route setting but not so with the older K frame. As I am hoping to be able to make the signals look like those  used in the 1929 resignalling then I feel I should also be modelling a K frame in the signal box so it will have a large number of levers. Luckily today at the Caistor show I was able to discus this with Rich (MarshLane) and I think we both agreed that a k frame would not be able to do route setting.

 

Last night's bedtime reading was the Warburton article in LMS journal No 23 and route setting was not mentioned. It is not mentioned on the web pages about the resignalling or on the Westinghouse web site regarding K frames. The Westinghouse website does go into some detail about the route setting at Lime Street that took place in 1948.  On thing that does keep cropping up that I am having problems getting my head around is the push-pull system for shunting signals, so before I add some more as suggested by Mike I would like to get that clear in my head.

[Clive Mortimore]

Thoughts on a wide to gauge trap point using bits off two Peco points. The points would need quite some drastic cutting about so they leave the tie bars, one blade and a shortened stock rail left. Jig them about so they look like the last stage. Once in situ drill a second hole in the tie bar, add a wire between the two tie bars and pivot that in the middle. Using one point motor when that is reversed the other tie bar will go the opposite direction.

[Clive Mortimore]

Actually, why not simply operate the appropriate trap blade from the lever giving access to the road? No extra levers required.

Hi Reg

 

The slip giving access when set normal, gives access. The two would always work opposite to each other which would never allow anything to enter or leave the siding, so the trap needs its own lever.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Regularity]

I think I need to produce a diagram to show what I mean!

[Budgie]

Hi Budgie

 

It would be but as I added it to the frame after Peter suggested it. I did it and it took the highest number instead of me renumbering half the points and signals so I jokingly said Charlie the signalman was not happy having to keep walking all the way down to the far end to change it. My mistake.

I was thinking that if you put it in the middle of the frame you could give it the number of the lever to its left with an A after it, so you wouldn't have to renumber anything.

[Regularity]

Ok, this does not go into any specific arrangement, but is a simplified demonstration of the general principles.

 

Firstly, the outer (platform?) roads are both in use, and the centre road has the traps set “wide to gauge”:

Now the upper point has been reversed, and the lower blade of of the trap has also been reversed:

And finally, the lower point has been reversed and the upper blade of the trap has been reversed:

Ignoring all other situational circumstances, including facing point locks, there are two levers in use to throw the points, and the requirement of the interlocking is to prevent both being reversed.