Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[Clive Mortimore]

Ok, this does not go into any specific arrangement, but is a simplified demonstration of the general principles.

 

Firstly, the outer (platform?) roads are both in use, and the centre road has the traps set “wide to gauge”:C1DA456F-9F98-4538-BB82-DC9FA8267E2D.jpeg

Now the upper point has been reversed, and the lower blade of of the trap has also been reversed:

BF26316A-6B1C-461D-B7DB-80FE882BA8AF.jpeg

And finally, the lower point has been reversed and the upper blade of the trap has been reversed:

E2C6513B-FD1D-4982-AF4D-8828A019AA74.jpeg

Ignoring all other situational circumstances, including facing point locks, there are two levers in use to throw the points, and the requirement of the interlocking is to prevent both being reversed.

All very helpful, but it does not match the track layout as planned.

[5BarVT]

Thanks to Regularity for the drawings as that is exactly how Newcastle Central looked and worked (saved me a lot of effort). However, as Clive says, his tracks are arranged differently and don’t lend themselves to that approach.

I like the idea of the swivel drive described by Clive, but the problem will be getting both blades to make up at the same time: some form of individual springing in the drive to each blade will be required. Have you seen St Enodoc’s approach to his double slips? But the opposite direction motion still needs to be overcome.

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks to Regularity for the drawings as that is exactly how Newcastle Central looked and worked (saved me a lot of effort). However, as Clive says, his tracks are arranged differently and don’t lend themselves to that approach.

I like the idea of the swivel drive described by Clive, but the problem will be getting both blades to make up at the same time: some form of individual springing in the drive to each blade will be required. Have you seen St Enodoc’s approach to his double slips? But the opposite direction motion still needs to be overcome.

Paul.

Hi Paul

 

Using surplus Peco points with their springs still in place the blades should open OK. I think a stop of some sort is required when the blades are set to derail to limit the action of the point motor. A simple bit of wire in the hole in the tie bar where opposite blade has been removed should do it.

[Clive Mortimore]

I was thinking that if you put it in the middle of the frame you could give it the number of the lever to its left with an A after it, so you wouldn't have to renumber anything.

Hi Jane,

 

The reason for numbering the points and signals was not to build a frame but just see how many levers it would be and from there how big the model signal box would be. Now even if the trap point number had become 56A or what ever the imagined frame would still be 105 levers long. As I have said my mistake for trying to make light of Peter's reminder I forgot the trap point.

 

The trap point is not a priority, tiling the kitchen is so I can earn some brownie points towards buying the timber for the base boards.  

Edited October 29, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Regularity]

All very helpful, but it does not match the track layout as planned.

 

Yes, I see. But you still do not need an extra lever, as the trap can be operated as if it were a crossover connected to the double slip.

 

The trap point is not a priority, tiling the kitchen is so I can earn some brownie points towards buying the timer for the base boards.

 

You build your baseboards against the clock?

[Regularity]

Here you go:

[The Stationmaster]

Ok, this does not go into any specific arrangement, but is a simplified demonstration of the general principles.

 

Firstly, the outer (platform?) roads are both in use, and the centre road has the traps set “wide to gauge”:C1DA456F-9F98-4538-BB82-DC9FA8267E2D.jpeg

Now the upper point has been reversed, and the lower blade of of the trap has also been reversed:

BF26316A-6B1C-461D-B7DB-80FE882BA8AF.jpeg

And finally, the lower point has been reversed and the upper blade of the trap has been reversed:

E2C6513B-FD1D-4982-AF4D-8828A019AA74.jpeg

Ignoring all other situational circumstances, including facing point locks, there are two levers in use to throw the points, and the requirement of the interlocking is to prevent both being reversed.

 

That works if the w-t-g trap gives access to two different routes (I have a pic  of a prototype of exactly such an arrangement if required - separate point machine for each switch rail) but in Clive's situation there is only one route in advance of the w-t-g trap so in the real world a system of cranks had to be used to drive the switch rails in opposite directions (e.g as at Perth - as can be seen on the right, middle siding in the image hopefully linked below -

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/19890711b_Perth_Station.jpg/1200px-19890711b_Perth_Station.jpg

[The Stationmaster]

Here you go:E30A9C61-C13A-4E55-A56D-8241BB5F2172.jpeg

 

Regrettably that won't work as there are two separate routes through the slip - one with the left end switches standing normal and the other with them standing reverse.  Thus if the w-t-g trap moves in concert with the left hand switches, whichever way, it will leave a passenger route unprotected.

[Regularity]

Ah, I see. I also see that I should have seen that before!

Bit of a , isn’t it?

 

Edit: Can anyone explain why a word that is enshrined in English law is profane?

Edited October 29, 2017 by Regularity

[Regularity]

That works if the w-t-g trap gives access to two different routes (I have a pic  of a prototype of exactly such an arrangement if required - separate point machine for each switch rail) but in Clive's situation there is only one route in advance of the w-t-g trap so in the real world a system of cranks had to be used to drive the switch rails in opposite directions (e.g as at Perth - as can be seen on the right, middle siding in the image hopefully linked below -

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/19890711b_Perth_Station.jpg/1200px-19890711b_Perth_Station.jpg

Terrific picture: I love the way that historic arrangements can still be seen, even if they have been completely removed. Adds weight to one of my theories, that in many cases to design a diesel only layout, you start with a steam age layout, and reduce and simplify. (Thinking particularly of the reverse curve the 47 will traverse on departure.)

[Clive Mortimore]

Yes, I see. But you still do not need an extra lever, as the trap can be operated as if it were a crossover connected to the double slip.

 

You build your baseboards against the clock?

Now edited

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, I see. I also see that I should have seen that before!

Bit of a ######, isn’t it?

 

Edit: Can anyone explain why a word that is enshrined in English law is profane?

 

Do you mean this one - bugger ?  Depends how you post it dunnit

Edited October 29, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Clive Mortimore]

With difficulty I guess, just like it is on the big railway because they move in opposite directions to each other.

 

Going back to the L frames, both Deal St (Exchange) and Lime St as well as using one lever per signal for junction signals also used one lever per group of signals with a common destination. The examples I can see on the L frame web site for Deal St are all nice and simple as only one common destination exists. Lime St is more complicated (like your plan) as some platforms read to two destinations. I haven't yet got enough detail of the pull plates to sort out what is going on.

 

Paul.

 

Hi Paul

 

Tanks for your input. The Manchester resignalling was done using K frames. K frames were mechanically locked, not electrically locked like L frames. It was possible to use the electrical circuitry of a L frame to do route setting but not so with the older K frame. As I am hoping to be able to make the signals look like those  used in the 1929 resignalling then I feel I should also be modelling a K frame in the signal box so it will have a large number of levers. Luckily today at the Caistor show I was able to discus this with Rich (MarshLane) and I think we both agreed that a k frame would not be able to do route setting.

 

Last night's bedtime reading was the Warburton article in LMS journal No 23 and route setting was not mentioned. It is not mentioned on the web pages about the resignalling or on the Westinghouse web site regarding K frames. The Westinghouse website does go into some detail about the route setting at Lime Street that took place in 1948.  On thing that does keep cropping up that I am having problems getting my head around is the push-pull system for shunting signals, so before I add some more as suggested by Mike I would like to get that clear in my head.

Hi Paul, Rich and Mike

 

I have had a second, third and fourth look at the signalling at Manchester and other locations were K frames were used, mainly on the SR. Looking at the signalling diagram for Manchester there is only one lever number next to the indicator. On the SR signal diagrams there is a lever for each route. I am now going to eat humble pie, Manchester seems to have had a its signals set up by the route and only one lever was required.

 

From the Resignalling of Manchester site does this state that the route indicator for the signal will indicate the route when the lever is pulled once the points have been set and to save levers it is one lever for all routes. The circuitry associated with  the points will show the correct route on the indicator.

 

Lever Arrangements.

      

In this installation there are 192 signals (exclusive of distant signals) reading over 299 different routes, which are controlled from 135 levers. The economy in signal levers has been accomplished by means of signal selection and the use of " push-pull " levers for many shunt signals, this being in accordance with the usual practice of the L. M. & S. Railway for power installations. The normal position of the "push-pull" lever is in the centre of the lever quadrant, the two reverse positions being " push " and " pull."

 

Looking at the photos on the Westinghouse site of Deal Street frame, fourth photo, levers numbers 19 and 24 have the four lights for the respective aspects on the signal, are the other lights indicator of which route the signal is set for, as at Liverpool Lime St?

 

I have sused out push-pull for the shut signals, if there is a cross over with a shunt signal for the two facing directions when the crossover is set, both signals will have the same lever and depending on which way the train is going that signal lever is either pulled or pushed, the other one cannot display a conflicting movement. I think I need help with shut and calling on signal positions.

 

Charlie and his mate say thank you as they now have a smaller frame to work.

 

Edited to add link to Westinghouse site

Edited October 30, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Tim Dubya]

Handbuilt OO-SF double slips with P4 gaps mate

 

(no charge)

[danstercivicman]

I may be completely wrong here but in a book called Manchester Termini it looks like some of the Manchester stations had pneumatic signalling.   Your prob already aware and know about it but it seems a handy way of avoiding point rods and such  

[Clive Mortimore]

I may be completely wrong here but in a book called Manchester Termini it looks like some of the Manchester stations had pneumatic signalling.   Your prob already aware and know about it but it seems a handy way of avoiding point rods and such

Wasn't it London Road? I am going for colour lights as I can get them working I am just being a little odd as normal and what something a bit different, historic colour lights and early design point machines. No rodding but trunking for the wires.

[Clive Mortimore]

Handbuilt OO-SF double slips with P4 gaps mate

 

(no charge)

Hi Tim

 

Thanks for the offer but as a nurse who worked on a hand injury ward which at times took the over flow from the burns unit it would be unprofessional to ask you to burn your little pinkies for me.

[danstercivicman]

Yes I think so, definitely worth a look.  The pictures seem really sparse track side as there is no rodding but there were big pressure things (technical term) next to the signal box.   Any layouts I build will now adopt this method (where relevant)...  I think just trunking but yeah colour sounds good!  

 

Wasn't it London Road? I am going for colour lights as I can get them working I am just being a little odd as normal and what something a bit different, historic colour lights and early design point machines. No rodding but trunking for the wires.

.   

[5BarVT]

levers numbers 19 and 24 have the four lights for the respective aspects on the signal, are the other lights indicator of which route the signal is set for, as at Liverpool Lime St?

Evening Clive,

Only just got to looking in detail at your supplementary questions, but you have found the website that I was using to make my assertions.

You are right, the top four lamps look like the signal aspect indications (though quite how they worked for the multi headed beast I'm not sure) and below that the three indicators for the route set. Note that the 'route' is illuminated even though the signal is red (inside, not to the driver) so that the signalman knows he has pulled the right points before clearing the signal. From the signalling plan, there are DF and DS for North and South lines: the indicators show DF DS and (annoyingly) 'D?'. I would love to know what the third indication was to know whether they were fitted left to right or right to left.

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

Evening Clive,

Only just got to looking in detail at your supplementary questions, but you have found the website that I was using to make my assertions.

You are right, the top four lamps look like the signal aspect indications (though quite how they worked for the multi headed beast I'm not sure) and below that the three indicators for the route set. Note that the 'route' is illuminated even though the signal is red (inside, not to the driver) so that the signalman knows he has pulled the right points before clearing the signal. From the signalling plan, there are DF and DS for North and South lines: the indicators show DF DS and (annoyingly) 'D?'. I would love to know what the third indication was to know whether they were fitted left to right or right to left.

Paul.

Hi Paul

 

Thanks again. The model signal box is getting smaller now I have that part sorted.

 

It is now the shunt signals. For the model I need enough that it looks right, or workable. I am trying not to make too complicated control panel with too many switches (I can hear the ex Hanging Hill crew laughing at the back), and I have got to build them. The model box has to reflect what is on the layout. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

I have come over all excited. I have been after a B16/3 for a while. DJH have discontinued their model, the Nu-cast one has not been available for years and I cannot get a response from PDK (I understand the guy who runs PDK is unwell at the moment, hope he is well soon). Well that has put my search for a model into touch. Yesterday I was looking at the Peterborough North thread and there was a photo of a D49, thump in the face as the image hit me. The front end of a D49 looks a lot like a B16/3. Out with my 1943 loco diagram book, photo copier set to enlarge to 4mm scale. Well blow me down the front end is very similar. B16 boiler is longer but the same diameter, the firebox in front of the cab is the same length, and the smoke box is a wee bit longer. The cab sides are different but basically they both have a LNER standard cab so a bit of bish, bosh, bash and hey ho sorted. The tender is the main problem.

 

I can scratch build a chassis, using the D49s valve gear, cylinders and bogie bunged on the front I am part the way there. Body, cut about two D49 bodies, a bit plastic card and some filler getting closer. I will need a NER chimney and a NER tender and it will be Cuff Cuff Cuff.....

[richard i]

A b16 was shown how to be built in the book loco building on the cheap. I can scan the relevant pages if you like .

Richard

[Clive Mortimore]

A b16 was shown how to be built in the book loco building on the cheap. I can scan the relevant pages if you like .

Richard

Yes please.

[Clive Mortimore]

I have been looking at my recovered track from old layouts, I have knocked £400 off the estimated cost of track if I was to buy new.

 

I had planned to use insulfrog points on the roundy roundy lines and in the sidings. I have a few electrofrog medium points I checked out last night and they seem to be working by passing the electrickery trough the blades. I am going to give them a good clean up so hopefully they won't need an additional switch for the frog. I am not too sure what to do with the few other surplus code 100 points.

 

I also have some surplus code 75, so in the loco depots I have replaced (on the plan) some of the medium points with curved ones and a long un. I have 3 Y points which tonight I cut some of the webs under the area where the closure rails are, a little twist and I have 3 straight points. These will be used in low traffic areas, two forming the loco release on platforms 8 and 7 and the other in the diesel yard.

[richard i]

Leaves more money to spend on plasticard.