Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

There has been no running or model making for a couple of days, I think the cold I have has dampened my mojo. Never mind it will bounce back soon when I am not so snotty and grotty.

 

Well what about this, today I was thumbing through a book on Peaks and there was a photo of one at Leeds Wellington station with a Fairburn class 4 tank next to it and I homed in on the steam loco not the diesel (don't tell the rest of the DEMU committee). It had the early BR totem not the emblem, with OLE warning flashes applied to it and it was quite clean unlike how weathered many models seem to be. I think if I was to model one of mine like that I would be told it is wrong. Anyhow that isn't the purpose of this post. How far could a LMS class 4 tank travel before needing more coal? On the LTSR they went from London to Shoeburyness which is about 40 miles. I think they were used on the Bedford to London services before the 127s were introduced and that is 50 miles. So would it be correct for me to use them on trains to Leeds and Bradford from Sheffield Exchange?

 

1 hour ago, jazzer said:

 

Hi Clive ,

The range of your class 4 tank is limited not so much by coal capacity as by water.  An A4 Pacific working the Elizabethan could get to Edinburgh on 8 tons of coal , say just under 2 tons per 100 miles, so your class 4 tank should comfortably do Sheffield -Leeds on its 3.5 tons, and probably back again. Of course a lot would depend on load , quality of coal, number of stops etc.

As to water capacity, some 2-6-4 tanks would do Brighton-London, 50, miles as long as they started with a full boiler.

A Bluebell Railway driver told me that on that line they reckoned around 30 gallons of water  per mile depending on train load so that would also give a limit of around 50 miles for a class 4 tank with a capacity of 2000 gallons bearing in mind they would always need a few hundred gallons in reserve because if they ran short of water in the boiler the consequences Would be dire if the firebox fuses melted.

So, in short , run your class 4  and if anyone complains you can tell them there’s a water stop on the way!

I'm with Jazzer here. Water at Barnsley and Wakefield and away you go.

[jazzer]

5 hours ago, Engineer said:

I'm a bit behind with most things in life, and so too with this thread.  It's good inspiration and it's a persistent reminder that I need to get ahead far enough with sorting out my life so I can carry on with some cut-and-shut work for myself, not on coaches but with model trams - someday.

 

Real reason for this overdue note is first to say thanks for including the excellent picture of the Canning Town train in the posts on 9/10 October - that area has some family connections for me. 

 

The mention of Jazz trains in the posts after this, I know, is connected commonly to the colour of the class markings added to the coaches and to the coloured stopping boards carried, but I have a serious alternative reason to suggest.  A large part of my career has been working with railway operators and very close to schedulers.  Consider a railway that has a single terminus or main line which fans out to two or more branches.  If the timetable has the trains running out to one terminus, then out to the next branch and back, and so on, then repeating the cycle through alternate routes, the creators of timetables have a traditional technical term for the service pattern -  'Jazzing'.  In some circumstances, this can become a very efficient service as an alternative to self-contained services on each branch.  Having looked up contemporary information on the original intensive services out of Liverpool Street, I think there's a good match between the terminology and the GER service pattern at the time.  The scheduling jargon may have found its way out through operations and into the wider community of railway interest - or there could be other reasons, of course.

 

It’s always difficult to trace the origin of these unofficial terms and often the same expression can refer to different things .

According to O.S. Nock, and I think the most widely accepted explanation is that at some time around 1902 or later the GER started putting coloured boards above coach doors , yellow for 1st Class , Blue for Second class and plain for third class, the theory being that it helped passengers to find their compartments more quickly in the short turnaround times allowed at Liverpool St. Originally ,  these colours apparently led to them being called rainbow trains but at some point a local newspaper referred to them as Jazz trains and the name caught on .That kind of ties in with the fact that the first ever jazz record was released in 1917 and Gresleys  K1 2-6–0’s Of 1917 were nicknamed “Ragtimers” (allegedly because the rotating of the Walchaerts valve gear was a bit like the dancing of the era, but I am a bit doubtful about that !). 

The one thing we can be certain of is that by 1922 Bradshaws was referring to it as the Jazz Service.

I am not sure about your timetabling point. It has been said that that guards van nearest the ticket barrier had a brightly coloured board detailing the station stops. I don’t know whether that’s true or an urban myth but it could have something to do with it if true. On the other hand it always seems to have been the case that the same  trains kept to the same routes , the Enfield Town trains, I think, always from Platforms 1&2 and Chingford from Platforms 3&4. , with most of the Enfield trains being worked by Enfield crews and Chingford trains by Wood Street crews, with only a handful, as far as I know worked by Stratford crews, strangely enough. 

[Clive Mortimore]

6 hours ago, jazzer said:

 

Hi Clive ,

The range of your class 4 tank is limited not so much by coal capacity as by water.  An A4 Pacific working the Elizabethan could get to Edinburgh on 8 tons of coal , say just under 2 tons per 100 miles, so your class 4 tank should comfortably do Sheffield -Leeds on its 3.5 tons, and probably back again. Of course a lot would depend on load , quality of coal, number of stops etc.

As to water capacity, some 2-6-4 tanks would do Brighton-London, 50, miles as long as they started with a full boiler.

A Bluebell Railway driver told me that on that line they reckoned around 30 gallons of water  per mile depending on train load so that would also give a limit of around 50 miles for a class 4 tank with a capacity of 2000 gallons bearing in mind they would always need a few hundred gallons in reserve because if they ran short of water in the boiler the consequences Would be dire if the firebox fuses melted.

So, in short , run your class 4  and if anyone complains you can tell them there’s a water stop on the way!

Hi Jazzer,

 

Thanks for those figures, it looks like a class 4 tank could be used on a Leeds train from Sheffield. I did think of water capacity. With a stopping service the locos would have the ability to take on water using station water cranes. It would be a limiting factor but  not one that would present too big a problem, where as running low on coal would be as there was no intermediate coaling facilities.

[MJI]

I think now that the NEXT Lima chassis I get will have to be sliced apart to make moulds of the engines and stuff and cast copies in resin to put on basic plastic card floor pans.

 

My most recent purchase is destined to go under my 119 DMSL.

 

I will also have to make more moulds from my modified Lima side frame for bogies.

[APOLLO]

LMS class 4 2-6-4 tank locos were regularly used on the Bradford - Huddersfield - Stalybridge - Stockport service back in the 60's. The very last train was so hauled.

 

Brit15

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

On 15/10/2019 at 20:28, Clive Mortimore said:

I have realised that I am posting all my modelling on here not Rough Engineering Made Easy or DMU Conversions for Sheffield Exchange. As I have basically stopped using those two threads I will concentrate my butchering of RTR stock and deforming plastic card efforts on here. 

I don't know quite how this works on RMweb, but a plea not to have these threads deleted, even if they are mothballed.

 

I've found them both informative and inspiring, and do pop back for a look from time to time.

 

John.

[Clive Mortimore]

12 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

I don't know quite how this works on RMweb, but a plea not to have these threads deleted, even if they are mothballed.

 

I've found them both informative and inspiring, and do pop back for a look from time to time.

 

John.

Hi John

 

Thank you. I am keeping them open, I will not be posting on them at the present time as I seem to share my muddling on here.

[Gibbo675]

11 hours ago, jazzer said:

 

Hi Clive ,

The range of your class 4 tank is limited not so much by coal capacity as by water.  An A4 Pacific working the Elizabethan could get to Edinburgh on 8 tons of coal , say just under 2 tons per 100 miles, so your class 4 tank should comfortably do Sheffield -Leeds on its 3.5 tons, and probably back again. Of course a lot would depend on load , quality of coal, number of stops etc.

As to water capacity, some 2-6-4 tanks would do Brighton-London, 50, miles as long as they started with a full boiler.

A Bluebell Railway driver told me that on that line they reckoned around 30 gallons of water  per mile depending on train load so that would also give a limit of around 50 miles for a class 4 tank with a capacity of 2000 gallons bearing in mind they would always need a few hundred gallons in reserve because if they ran short of water in the boiler the consequences Would be dire if the firebox fuses melted.

So, in short , run your class 4  and if anyone complains you can tell them there’s a water stop on the way!

Hi Jazzer,

 

The crew could always drop the scoop at appropriate locations in either direction on any LMS 2-6-4 or 2-6-2 tank locomotive with the exception of the three cylinder Stanier tanks of the LTSR, the only ones that were not fitted with pick up apparatus.

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

12 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

Well Clive, your case for the 107 is well made! Crinan is Highland based of course, but it does not prevent my 126 turning up occasionally on a railtour or "6 Lochs Landcruise"...... so a 107 on a Dumbarton shuttle perhaps? Having not looked in any detail other than the window layout similarity, I hadn't noticed or even considered that the 107 bodyside window spacing might be different to the 110, thanks for pointing it out. I'm currently torn between whether to do the 107, a 100 or a 103. Or pick up some more cheap 110s and try for all 3. Might take a while!

Hi Martyn,

 

If you don't finish your DMU's we could pool resources and build a model of Vic Berry's of Leicester with the stack of part finished (pretend to be scrapped) body shells !

I do hope it doesn't come to that and that I also pull my finger out.

 

Gibbo.

[jazzer]

4 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Jazzer,

 

The crew could always drop the scoop at appropriate locations in either direction on any LMS 2-6-4 or 2-6-2 tank locomotive with the exception of the three cylinder Stanier tanks of the LTSR, the only ones that were not fitted with pick up apparatus.

 

Gibbo.

Hi Gibbo,

Yes, I thought of that but were there any water troughs between Leeds and Sheffield ? Not as far as I know, but I am not very familiar with the area, so I stand to be corrected if anyone knows better. 

[Gibbo675]

32 minutes ago, jazzer said:

Hi Gibbo,

Yes, I thought of that but were there any water troughs between Leeds and Sheffield ? Not as far as I know, but I am not very familiar with the area, so I stand to be corrected if anyone knows better. 

Hi Jazzer,

 

A fair point to which I don't have the answer !

Someone that has a copy of the British Railways Atlas and Gazteer may help us out. I know my dad's copy shews crosses where troughs are located but he lives over 90 miles away and is a little inconvenient.

 

Gibbo.

[john new]

14 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Jazzer,

 

A fair point to which I don't have the answer !

Someone that has a copy of the British Railways Atlas and Gazteer may help us out. I know my dad's copy shews crosses where troughs are located but he lives over 90 miles away and is a little inconvenient.

 

Gibbo.

None marked I can spot.

 

I've forgotten how your missing links to Exchange fit with the “as built” network but I think Wakefield would be likely to be a long enough stop to top up the tanks if going to Leeds with Huddersfield the same if going to Bradford. Perhaps time to post a link again to your route maps.

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by john new

[Clive Mortimore]

4 hours ago, john new said:

None marked I can spot.

 

I've forgotten how your missing links to Exchange fit with the “as built” network but I think Wakefield would be likely to be a long enough stop to top up the tanks if going to Leeds with Huddersfield the same if going to Bradford. Perhaps time to post a link again to your route maps.

 

Ah !

 

You see John there is a slight problem with my original escape route proposed lines exiting the city would have been an engineering nightmare according to present and past residents of Sheffield as there are some huge hills in the way. In discussion with Enterprising Mike the tracks would have been laid on the same routes as taken by the MR and MS&LR heading north-eastwards before going around them hills northwards.  So I either have to accept what Mike and I discussed or pretend those hills are merely slight mounds.  Looking at pre-grouping railway maps some junctions would have to be added or face another direction to enable the services I suggest ran from Sheffield Exchange, that is one of the problems with a make believe location.  For my model it doesn't really matter, it is the idea that the L&YR and GNR were able to provide an alternative set of services to other Yorkshire cities and those the other side of the Pennines.

 

The reason I asked about the range of a class 4 tank on a bunker full of coal was to keep the pretense that I am trying to make this as realistic as possible when I caption a photo and say something like "A Fairburn tank is seen arriving with a stopper form Leeds" it would be within the capability should it be real. 

 

As for water troughs, what about the ones located between Barnsley and Dewsbury on the L&YR line to Sheffield........whoops I am looking at my alternative Yorkshire railway map again.

[jazzer]

27 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Ah !

 

The reason I asked about the range of a class 4 tank on a bunker full of coal was to keep the pretense that I am trying to make this as realistic as possible when I caption a photo and say something like "A Fairburn tank is seen arriving with a stopper form Leeds" it would be within the capability should it be real. 

 

As for water troughs, what about the ones located between Barnsley and Dewsbury on the L&YR line to Sheffield........whoops I am looking at my alternative Yorkshire railway map again.

 

Ah, “modellers licence “ covers a multitude of sins before you get to the station/ scenic area but have you ever thought how this question of water affects the position of your uncoupling magnets (if you use them).? 

Consider this : suburban tank engines will need a drink at the buffers before the train is removed. The tank filler on most 2-6-4 tanks ( and especially the LMS designs I think) is at the front of the tank, roughly one third of the way along the locomotive and the driver would stop with the filler cap adjacent to the water column. On a tender engine the filler is at th3 back of the tender , so the driver would pull much further forward because he has to get the entire length of the loco and tender past the water column. Not a problem on th3 real Railway but it affects the position of the uncouplers on the model .

A nit picking point I know, but I have lost count of the models that don’t hav3 any water facilities near the buffers of a big terminus or dont stop adjacent to them . I have just been looking at a superb layout on YouTube supposedly of a North Devon terminus with two Bulleid West Country’s side by side against the buffers with not a water column in sight , not even in the engine shed area !

The thing that reminded me of this was that the Thompson L1 ‘s had their tank fillers further back towards the cab than the LMS tanks so they could run into Liverpool St smoke first or bunker first and still line up with the water columns which were originally positioned for tint 2-4-2’s.

Having said all that Sheffield Exchange is a brilliant concept.

 

[Signaller69]

18 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Martyn,

 

If you don't finish your DMU's we could pool resources and build a model of Vic Berry's of Leicester with the stack of part finished (pretend to be scrapped) body shells !

I do hope it doesn't come to that and that I also pull my finger out.

 

Gibbo.

There's a thought! Or possibly an "alternative" style layout featuring a C&W works, with areas for models as bought, under conversion and finished? So one end with sidings full of Hornby 110's, Lima 117's and Triang coaches, a workshop with various chop jobs in progress (lots of OO figures on ladders etc), and nice fresh completed coaches and units at the other end?

 

With apologies to Clive for going slightly off thread.... 

[john new]

8 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Ah !

 

You see John there is a slight problem with my original escape route proposed lines exiting the city would have been an engineering nightmare according to present and past residents of Sheffield as there are some huge hills in the way. In discussion with Enterprising Mike the tracks would have been laid on the same routes as taken by the MR and MS&LR heading north-eastwards before going around them hills northwards.  So I either have to accept what Mike and I discussed or pretend those hills are merely slight mounds.  Looking at pre-grouping railway maps some junctions would have to be added or face another direction to enable the services I suggest ran from Sheffield Exchange, that is one of the problems with a make believe location.  For my model it doesn't really matter, it is the idea that the L&YR and GNR were able to provide an alternative set of services to other Yorkshire cities and those the other side of the Pennines.

 

The reason I asked about the range of a class 4 tank on a bunker full of coal was to keep the pretense that I am trying to make this as realistic as possible when I caption a photo and say something like "A Fairburn tank is seen arriving with a stopper form Leeds" it would be within the capability should it be real. 

 

As for water troughs, what about the ones located between Barnsley and Dewsbury on the L&YR line to Sheffield........whoops I am looking at my alternative Yorkshire railway map again.

Agree, real world geography and railway politics would put the mockers one many of our might have been ideas. Some of my on hold ideas (no space to store if built)

 

Bridport North (LSWR) - real schemes beaten by GWR blocking moves.

York Fossgate - commercially it would never have been built, hence the real York - Hull line further to the north joining the Scarborough line and running powers into the main station for other (non-NER) contenders.

Silsden Moorside (ex-GN & NER) geography would need some bending for the links.

 

However, despite that mere trifle, your layout works and is convincing.

Edited October 18, 2019 by john new

[MJI]

Reading these threads points to the fact that most BR Diesel modellers when heavily modifying stuff do multiple units. Clive, Me, Sig69, Brian Kirby, all of us have knocked up unavailable DMUs.

 

I find it fascinating.

[Ray H]

Reading this thread highlights how easy it is for people with or without similar interests in part or as a whole to discuss ideas and scenarios with each other in what seems a very pleasant atmosphere. Even the contradictions don't cause offence.

 

Long may it continue.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Ray H said:

Reading this thread highlights how easy it is for people with or without similar interests in part or as a whole to discuss ideas and scenarios with each other in what seems a very pleasant atmosphere. Even the contradictions don't cause offence.

 

Long may it continue.

Just found Tremostyn from your sig Ray - following now!

[Clive Mortimore]

About to head off to Newark for the Lincoln and District Model Railway Club's "Modern Image Show" to help set up. Please do come and say "Hi" if you are coming to the show.

 

Check list before I go

Horse poo wheel barrow..... fixed

Medication to collected

Bread and other stuff to buy before going, Co-op is opposite the doctors

Post brother's birthday card, post box near Co-op

and may be sort out some stuff for the DEMU stand.

 

 

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

all of us have knocked up unavailable DMUs.

 

probably not to be bragged about in the current climate, #naughtyboys

[jazzer]

3 hours ago, Ray H said:

Reading this thread highlights how easy it is for people with or without similar interests in part or as a whole to discuss ideas and scenarios with each other in what seems a very pleasant atmosphere. Even the contradictions don't cause offence.

 

Long may it continue.

 

First rule of model railways : Don’t take yourself seriously !

[timbowilts]

1 hour ago, jazzer said:

 

First rule of model railways : Don’t take yourself seriously !

That is exactly how I will be playing it if we ever complete the move to Felinfoel.

My current thoughts are along the lines of Llantwit Vadre with a might-have-been of Passenger services having continued long enough for Class 116 and Class 122 to have taken over from autotrailers, alongside various colliery workings. Well that’s my dream.

Tim T

[MJI]

7 minutes ago, timbowilts said:

That is exactly how I will be playing it if we ever complete the move to Felinfoel.

My current thoughts are along the lines of Llantwit Vadre with a might-have-been of Passenger services having continued long enough for Class 116 and Class 122 to have taken over from autotrailers, alongside various colliery workings. Well that’s my dream.

Tim T

 

I have decided I now want some green ones and a 121 or 122 is on the cards, will use Lima 117s of course.

[Gibbo675]

7 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

There's a thought! Or possibly an "alternative" style layout featuring a C&W works, with areas for models as bought, under conversion and finished? So one end with sidings full of Hornby 110's, Lima 117's and Triang coaches, a workshop with various chop jobs in progress (lots of OO figures on ladders etc), and nice fresh completed coaches and units at the other end?

 

With apologies to Clive for going slightly off thread.... 

Hi Martyn,

 

Clive's cut and shuts could be in the livery research department of the C&W works !!!

 

Gibbo.