Simon Says

[Les1952]

I must confess I hadn't really thought much about the impact of GBL.  As an N-gauge modeller I'd bought an odd Del Prado model for bits, but since they are 1:160 I'd largely dimissed them as an irritation - even the couple I have (such as the Picasso railcar) are proving remarkably difficult to make much of.  As a result I'd just considered GBL as "another Del Prado but bigger".....

 

Les

[robmcg]

....

I do wonder as Hornby has outsourced manufacturing, and now logistics as well. What is left? Would they perhaps outsource management as well , and give it to Jason (don't fancy pre ordering, though) or Dave and do us all a favour. All that's left is the brand and it seems the current incumbents are bringing that into disrepute!

 

Just because you use contractors, manufacturing, advertising, warehousing, management, whatever, it's is still run by 'you'.  As in building a house. Or is a contractor's service being 'outsourced' somehow inferior? 

 

The current management at Hornby are doing alright.

[The Stationmaster]

Just because you use contractors, manufacturing, advertising, warehousing, management, whatever, it's is still run by 'you'.  As in building a house. Or is a contractor's service being 'outsourced' somehow inferior? 

 

The current management at Hornby are doing alright.

Any kind of outsourcing has to be managed to produce optimum results - if it sin't then it quite likely won't deliver, if it is properly managed by the purchaser of teh outsourced service then it is far more likely to deliver.  As you say the new Hornby management would seem to be working hard on managing their outsourcing.

[petethemole]

Good job they didn't outsource to Crapita then!

[finelines]

Are all the GBL prototypes Bachmann or Hornby? Could there be a financial accommodation that we will never know about?

 

Roger

[Andy Y]

2nd question - Not from my understanding Roger.

[stewartingram]

Perhaps OT, but has anyone seen the locos modelled in pressed coal.....complete with Hornby couplings?

 

Stewart

[Neil]

Perhaps OT, but has anyone seen the locos modelled in pressed coal.....complete with Hornby couplings?

 

Stewart

 

Yes. I think the first 'coal' locos were taken from Airfix kits, I remember the pug, 9F, prairie tank and City of Truro in this material before those taken from the Hornby range. Further digression; at an exhibition in Doncaster maybe fifteen years or so ago I overheard a manufacturer of resin loco bodies telling a customer about his forthcoming release, mastered by chopping up two Hornby loco bodies and joining them together to get one of the correct length. Always thought that a bit off.

 

Edited for punctuation, apologies if still wonky.

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps OT, but has anyone seen the locos modelled in pressed coal.....complete with Hornby couplings?

 

Stewart

Terrible things at ludicrous prices i always thought.  Does anyone know if their type of coal dust and resin briquette burnt very well (they can't have been much good for anything else)?

[Dunsignalling]

 Further digression; at an exhibition in Doncaster maybe fifteen years or so ago I overheard a manufacturer of resin loco bodies telling a customer about his forthcoming release, mastered by chopping up two Hornby loco bodies and joining them together to get one of the correct length. Always thought that a bit off.

 

Edited for punctuation, apologies if still wonky.

Sounds quite reasonable to me if Hornby couldn't be bothered to do it themselves.

[Neil]

.....Further digression; at an exhibition in Doncaster maybe fifteen years or so ago I overheard a manufacturer of resin loco bodies telling a customer about his forthcoming release, mastered by chopping up two Hornby loco bodies and joining them together to get one of the correct length. Always thought that a bit off.

 

Edited for punctuation, apologies if still wonky.

 

 

Sounds quite reasonable to me if Hornby couldn't be bothered to do it themselves.

 

The resin caster obviously couldn't be bothered to do the work himself, happy to piggyback his enterprise on the efforts of Hornby's designers and toolmakers.

[micklner]

The resin caster obviously couldn't be bothered to do the work himself, happy to piggyback his enterprise on the efforts of Hornby's designers and toolmakers.

If Hornby never designed it correctly whats the problem ? For how many he will sell ,good luck to him and his customers!!

[JSpencer]

Read the SK blogs with interest.

 

To sum up Simon, the 72XX when first announced was the most expensive RTR tank loco to date. The detail was then dumbed down, but the price remained with no com to the buyers waiting for them. End result, unhappy customers.

 

Brighton Belle advertised with sprung buffers and curtains. Released without either. Worse, Hornby picked models at end end of the service life spectrum where sales would be least. A 1950s Belle should have been in the first run. Ok a mid 1960s one is on the way, but the 1950s one is the one most wanted.

This model would have won model of the year except the Bachmann blue Pullman came out at the same time and was simply better.

 

Did Duke of Gloucester head in the right direction. In the main yes, but was an overkill in the right direction. Tender handrails should have been separate fittings. Nothing wrong with a 3 pole motor per se, except this 3 pole motor is very poor even by 3 pole standards. Nothing wrong with reducing pickups just to the driving wheels, except the centre axle should then be sprung, the conrods should still be split. The pickup design is equally poor quality, all pickups on my DoG have ceased functioning.

The lack of cab fittings, the mould cab handrail (which is flush with the cab) and no sliding vents etc etc is fine.

 

The 4 VEP had plenty of silly mistakes but the delayed blue grey version may be so expensive that few will sell anyway now, that I would have doubts about tooling out the errors. You would certainly want a healthy order book before placing it into production.

 

The problem is Hornby must be over staffed, if it makes a loss on a 45% margin with £21 million in sales.

 

Sure Bachmann and Heljan have practically stole the desiel market! the 2008 recession arrived, prices have gone up

 

But your biggest bug bear is that Hornby either fails to fulfil its orders or it's left with stock that it cannot sell. This is what happens if you set production plans before the orders are in based on guesswork. Hornby should allow a year for orders to build, then produce models just fulfil the order.

(Railroad models can be an exception as we expect to sell the same models year in and year out).

 

Design clever worked well for the 2 bil though...

[robmcg]

Not sure if it would be practical to take orders for models and then set about producing them.

 

Otherwise, interesting comments. I'll be interested to hear if DoGs are still running in three years with hours of use, I suspect most will.

[Ozexpatriate]

Not sure if it would be practical to take orders for models and then set about producing them.

Why not?

 

Barring the customary objection of wanting to see it 'in the flesh' first, if a manufacturer is able to build a reputation for consistent product quality (which by the way, Hornby *had* before 2008) then I don't see why not.

 

There doesn't have to be a hard requirement for up-front money. 

 

RapidoTrains is doing this. US manufacturers like BLI/Paragon are doing this. It works.

[robmcg]

Why not?

 

Barring the customary objection of wanting to see it 'in the flesh' first, if a manufacturer is able to build a reputation for consistent product quality (which by the way, Hornby *had* before 2008) then I don't see why not.

 

There doesn't have to be a hard requirement for up-front money. 

 

RapidoTrains is doing this. US manufacturers like BLI/Paragon are doing this. It works.

 

I personally would not order a model three years before earliest expected receipt, others may. I certainly wouldn't commit to buy that far ahead, so orders would surely be more akin to a wish-list, and we already have those...

 

What kind of specification would be implied by a pre-order, if the item hadn't even been designed?  Too messy in my humble opinion.

[Dunsignalling]

Why not?

 

Barring the customary objection of wanting to see it 'in the flesh' first, if a manufacturer is able to build a reputation for consistent product quality (which by the way, Hornby *had* before 2008) then I don't see why not.

 

There doesn't have to be a hard requirement for up-front money. 

 

RapidoTrains is doing this. US manufacturers like BLI/Paragon are doing this. It works.

It would be unlikely to work with a large range of items such as Hornby produce. Nor do I see it as compatible with a position/aspiration as the volume market leader. Rapido deal only directly with end purchasers and, whilst Hornby appear to be cultivating that kind of selling to some degree, I doubt they would want to go the whole hog for the foreseeable future.  

 

Doing it for one-offs like the DoG and CotN would result in better but more expensive products, made in smaller numbers but that would rule out Railroad versions which would detract from the credibility of the 'special' models.

 

I could see Hornby doing it occasionally to produce items that wouldn't normally be considered viable for r-t-r but recent history suggests they aren't scared to do that within their existing business model.

 

John

[S.A.C Martin]

I personally would not order a model three years before earliest expected receipt

Yet if you ordered a Hornby B17 after its original announcement, you'd wait two and a half years before a prototype appeared.

 

I preordered Book Law and the expectation now is that is not going to arrive this year, personally speaking...

 

So in essence, are modellers not already preordering models unseen years in advance now anyway? It's the only way to get some of the new toolings it seems.

[Dunsignalling]

I personally would not order a model three years before earliest expected receipt, others may. I certainly wouldn't commit to buy that far ahead, so orders would surely be more akin to a wish-list, and we already have those...

 

What kind of specification would be implied by a pre-order, if the item hadn't even been designed?  Too messy in my humble opinion.

By the time they finally arrive, I'll probably have been waiting that long for Hornby's 'Okehampton' and Bachmann's upgraded Ivatt tank!

 

Rapido and others have proved it works in the North American market and there is no reason it won't here. The manufacturer lays down the spec at the outset and the customer trusts him to deliver it. The proof will be in the APT-shaped pudding.

 

However, it's a practice that produces individual models or small groups of associated models for enthusiasts and collectors, not the wider market that Hornby currently services. It rules out purchases through conventional outlets; you either order upfront or take your chances on eBay but we know what that looks like already!

 

Also, given current production volatility and the variable specifications of recent models, could Hornby command the amount of faith required?

 

John

[Legend]

Completely agree with JSpencer. A very good post I thought. As SAC Martin says it takes so long to receive new models there surely is enough time to assess orders before producing. This is not new . Even in mid 70s locos took 18 months to appear. The only issue might be that because they've outsourced everything that Hornby may have to secure manufacturing time a way in advance, which might mean they cannot be flexible in numbers. I know the arguments about cost, but there really is a lot to be said for keeping your supply chain in house as it gives you more control and flexibility. Perhaps Hornby should consider investing in one of their new suppliers or even buying it out, but retaining local management. That would give it the flexibility required. However don't put all eggs in one basket like Frank Martin did, keep your other 5 suppliers on line .

 

I don't like idea of pre ordering new locos but a system where Hornby assess demand then make that number plus say 10 -25% for casual purchasers would be the way to go

[JSpencer]

I would set up a pre order system for super detailed models in the locos and coaches ranges ( but not railroad items).

 

Before you get to production, you have about 2 years worth of product development anyway, so after year 1 you fix the order size, and base production around that.

 

As a business, you do not want to be basing your plans on estimates of "people said they might buy if it meets lots of complex criteria". Because that will mean you end up sitting on lots of stock.

 

I feel We are moving into an age now whereby if we want models, we have to order up front or we loose our manufacturers.

[The Stationmaster]

I feel the point is being missed in all this talk about manufacturing the number ordered because - if my information is correct - that is exactly what Hornby do (and have done for some time) for the likes of things such as the main range locos.  And let's not overlook the fact that in two recent years they have announced cancellation of the runs of certain models because of insufficient orders  (including one allegedly now appearing in the shops which I ordered 2 years and 7 months ago - so yes Rob, I might yet have a  3 year wait for it!).

 

So they're already doing it, and have been for some time.  Which leaves the seemingly simple question of why we are getting rationing and deliveries which don't match pre-orders?  There are numerous answers to this some which are seemingly quite genuine (e.g. new manufacturers building up expertise and thus with a high rejection rate) and some which are unspoken such as retailers' orders not carried over from year end to the next year, and cutting the allocation to some retailers in order to supply others who failed to get their own order in on time.  Add to that the financial pressures on retailers which means they're wary of ordering for stock plus - dare I say it - the attitude of some 'modellers' who not only must have it now but also at the cheapest price they can find and you have a somewhat distorted market situation coupled to what has been a poor supply situation.

 

The action which Hornby has taken, and which it says it is taking on the supply side, should address some of the problems but in my view they must get to a situation where they guarantee timely pre-orders and they put their supply to retailers where their words are.  If they were to simply offer that guarantee I would really begin to believe they are fully on the road to trying to re-establish their market reputation and position.  And provided it is accompanied by something which re-establishes and thus helps to guarantee their reputation for detail and quality they will be there.

 

All easy to say, not necessarily quite so easy to do - but that is why they recruit and pay for managerial talent.

[edcayton]

I thought that a fundamental of business was that you take a risk in the hope/expectation of gaining a reward. I f the punters are putting the money up front then it is they who are taking the risk.

 

But, hey, who could blame a manufacturer for taking the second approach if enough people are willing?

 

Ed

[finelines]

For me there is evidence that the companies don't understand what they are selling. They are pieces of engineering, toys, dressed up in different ways to represent different prototypes, but essentially fall into a small number of patterns. If you study the bible of first generation dmu drawings it rapidly becomes clear that once you have designed the first one you can run through the entire family, provided you took this into account when you started. But it seems that each time a new one is produced it is started from the rail up. Hornby might have cottoned on with their emus.

 

Who are the customers? We, the modellers, have always claimed that provided the detail on the "train set" is to a reasonable standard, we support them. For many years the rtr manufactures claimed the the "the train set" was their main market and we were lucky with what we get. Hornby proved this wrong with the Merchant Navy. I am told there was a similar event for Bachmann. So how did we end up here?

 

Roger

[finelines]

I thought that a fundamental of business was that you take a risk in the hope/expectation of gaining a reward. I f the punters are putting the money up front then it is they who are taking the risk.

 

Ed

Bang on!

 

Roger