G-BOAF Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I just get the "feeling" that Hornby are either telling or preparing the punters to hear that Dumbing Down is the new good thing from them. I dont think thats a bad thing in itself, as its not too hard to stick extra bits on owt, but the price should match the new product.....However I have another feeling that in the mind of Hornby the new prices actually do match the intended product .ie pay more for less, as it were. fine, IF they provide the extra parts for the user to fit. The problem is that they are not, they are providing moulded detail which is IMPOSSIBLE to remove without major refinishing (e.g Star handrail). If the cost is labour, then provide the parts in a bag similar to ViTrains, and the purchaser can fit or not as they desire. I'd be happy even to pay the same providing I can achieve the same standards of finish with a little effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 How many subjects in that poll received at least 378 votes I wonder? None, but minimum sample size (the 378 voters) and the tally of votes are different things numerically The 2012 00 poll had 685 items to vote for. 253 (top vote tally) out of 1812 voters is 14% of the total. Everything in the top 50 had at least 160 votes. The 2013 poll had vote tallies from 179 to 353 in the top 50 items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted July 14, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 14, 2014 Those taking part in the poll were self selecting, unlike opinion polls. We have no idea how the people who visit rmweb and mremag represent the buyers of model railway equipment. I can't believe that the big manufacturers would rely on these polls to choose their products. I am reminded of a piece of Hornby market research, possibly apocryphal, many years ago. What's your favourite colour? Red. What's your favourite loco? The Hall. Result, Lord Westwood, red Hall, with Hornby's phone number. Many unsold for years! Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Those taking part in the poll were self selecting, unlike opinion polls. Yes, hence the selection bias. I can't believe that the big manufacturers would rely on these polls to choose their products. I don't think they do "rely" on them. They are one source of market information out of several and I think a reasonable one. I am reminded of a piece of Hornby market research, possibly apocryphal, many years ago. What's your favourite colour? Red. What's your favourite loco? The Hall. Result, Lord Westwood, red Hall, with Hornby's phone number. I believe that is entirely apocryphal, I believe it was a 'tribute'. I wonder how a design clever, GWR heavy tank in a reversed colour, orange livery with green lining and the nameplate "Frank Martin" would be received by the market? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 14, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 14, 2014 I wonder how a design clever, GWR heavy tank in a reversed colour, orange livery with green lining and the nameplate "Frank Martin" would be received by the market? Only as a very pricey air rifle target. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Only as a very pricey air rifle target.Air rifles? Perhaps I've lived in the US too long? They have many much more destructive options here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger5591 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 The mathematics of statistics would disagree. The sample is not too small, but there is a strong suggestion of selection bias in the MREmag and RMweb Wishlist poll. This is a fun calculator of such things. There are less than 24,000 members of RMweb. For a population of 24,000 with a 5% confidence interval, (margin of error) at a 95% confidence level, only 378 people need to vote. 1,812 people voted in 2012. (I couldn't find total voters in Brian's posting for the 2013 results.) Given that only the people motivated to come here to RMweb to vote, do so, you could accurately argue this as a form of selection bias. Hi Michael I have to disagree with your use of the calculator - it's not meant for this kind of data collection method, which, as you say, returns a skewed sample. It is for use in normally distributed samples. And even if you could use it, its not that 378 people "need to vote", the calculator tells us 378 people need to be selected for interview by random sampling of 24,000 RMWebbers. But even 378 is not accurate - RMWebbers model different scales, so to be strictly accurate, we would need a separate sample sizes calculated for the number of RMWebbers who model each scale. But I agree with your conclusions. Self selecting internet surveys have no statistical value, but the results do help to guide the need for, and planning of, proper surveys. cheers Rodger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted July 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2014 I have always regarded the polls as a bit of fun. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I just get the "feeling" that Hornby are either telling or preparing the punters to hear that Dumbing Down is the new good thing from them....... ............I have another feeling that in the mind of Hornby the new prices actually do match the intended product .ie pay more for less, as it were. Having read the latest Simon Says blog entry and previous issuings from the Margate PR machine, I'm very much inclined to agree. The blog reads as pure company PR. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I have to disagree with your use of the calculator - it's not meant for this kind of data collection method, which, as you say, returns a skewed sample. It is for use in normally distributed samples. Understood. I used it to illustrate the point that the sample size in the survey (which was 1,812 in 2012) was not too small, statistically speaking, to produce useful results, while stipulating that the results have selection bias issues. It remains my hypothesis that a rigorously conducted study on a random sample group with the same aims (limiting choices to currently 'unmanufactured' items) wouldn't necessarily come up with markedly different results, but we can't prove that either way. One of the problems with the survey as it stands is that you have to be rather well informed to participate in it, essentially limiting the people who can effectively participate in the survey to a very similar set that proactively do. I think the survey team are doing a great job in mitigating this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted July 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2014 Having read the latest Simon Says blog entry and previous issuings from the Margate PR machine, I'm very much inclined to agree. The blog reads as pure company PR. . And that they haven't learned from past mistakes! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Yes, hence the selection bias. I don't think they do "rely" on them. They are one source of market information out of several and I think a reasonable one. I believe that is entirely apocryphal, I believe it was a 'tribute'. I wonder how a design clever, GWR heavy tank in a reversed colour, orange livery with green lining and the nameplate "Frank Martin" would be received by the market? I would welcome it. I would just play the waiting game until all the unsold are severely discounted, buy a couple for superdetailing and a full repaint.....just as I did with Lord Westwood as a teenager! Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I would welcome it. I would just play the waiting game until all the unsold are severely discounted, buy a couple for superdetailing and a full repaint.....just as I did with Lord Westwood as a teenager! Making lemonade from lemons then? And you'd be adding brass bushings too? Actually the heavy tanks do look good and I wouldn't categorize them as lemons. They were so close to being superb, but for a couple of short cuts they might have been. Where's Mike's ha'penny for some tar? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Actually the heavy tanks do look good and I wouldn't categorize them as lemons. They were so close to being superb, but for a couple of short cuts they might have been.Not my area, but have a read of the current MRJ for an in depth look at just what is wrong with them. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Read the last Simon Says blog (holiday in Greece, History one). I certainly agree that there needs to be a "thrill" in getting a new loco. These days I get apprehension for the following reasons: 1) will it arrive? (not Hornby's fault) 2) if it does, will it be in one piece ? (can be Hornby's fault, the packaging used on the Star is very flimsy and weak compared with Bachmann, my Star's two horizontal moulded handrails had snapped off in transit) 3) if there is a problem, can it be replaced? (something again Hornby should be able to control, but don't always. I recently has an 08 missing the air cylinders, they were sold out, Hornby said they do not do spare parts goto a spares shop, went to a spares shop, and they said they cannot get these because they are "body" parts. In the end I brought and fitted a Bachmann one.... but the point is, I should not have to!). Before getting that far, there is additional apprehension: 1) will my order survive the 2-3 years and not be cancelled by Hornby at the last minute because they under produced? Once we get past those four apprehensions, I can then start to enjoy the model. Now if it was a question of watching trains go round, well I am sure an A4 body on a smokey joe chassis would be perfect. But I personally like to recreate a scene, so it is paramount the model looks like the real thing of course allowing for the fact that it functions. I will admit the odd rivet going a amiss won't bother me much, but wheel spacing, number of spokes, correct size and shape are important. If I place Hornby's Star next to a 1980s Hornby Saint, the two have the same boiler type in real life, but clearly the 1980's saint has all the proportions wrong. I think that it probably costs the same to get it right as it does to get it wrong. Where I will ceed the point, is for the level of fitted vs moulded detail. If moulding can get away with it, then its fine, for example the cab handrail on Duke of Gloucester or the Vertical Cab Handrails on the Star do not shock me as they are flush with the body. On the other hand, the moulded handrails on the Duke's tender and the cab wings, oops I mean the horizontal cab handrails on the Star do not look the part. I think - as a cost measure - we do not need lots of working parts like sprung buffers, opening doors and vents etc. (though the ability to fit lights and smoke would be nice on a stream engine!). In general 1970s models, although capture the cartoon character of a model, don't really look a like the loco in question when compared with a photo. Today's models do in general. As a kid I loved Battlestar Galatica, but watching the original series as an adult just makes me cringe. The same effect happens if I run a Triang princess with modern day stock.... One thrill for me is not just running the models, it is also comparing the models, it is nice to see how various classes compare when shedded togethor. Likewise recreating those nostalgic moments, from childhood is wonderful too. With the digital age, I can now make films, do photos and even have models making sound.... This adds to the thrill. Some here take even take photos of their models, dress them up and because the model is so good, you cannot tell if the loco is model or the real thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faulcon1 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Of the entries that I've read on this thread not one mentions the Chinese workers who make these models. A worker on 3 pounds per hour and it rising to 6 pound per hour. How many people on this thread are on 3 or 6 pounds per hour. You all seem to be whingeing about the detail and quality of Hornby's models of late. But what will Hornby do if the Chinese workers decide that 6 pounds per hour is not enough and they want 15-20 pounds per hour in order to afford increasing prices in China. If the Chinese workforce wants more money then they should get it. Then the price of models will shoot up but the quality and detail may stay the same but if it goes up the prices will rise even more. I don't particularly care how expensive models become as long as they look right and run well. Details such as sprung buffers is only of use to people who use three link couplings and the latest r-t-r coaches. For the rest of us that use the supplied tension lock couplings they're a useless decoration. Highly detailed cab interiors on steam and diesel are IMO a waste, if you want to see painted detail paint it on yourself. As long as the loco looks right and runs and has some detail, well I'm happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2014 I see there is a new Simon Says. Good background stuff there. Apparently the APT was going to be brought back for the 2012 range but Health and Safety said tools couldn't be moved! Such a shame, as Simon says, I'm sure this would have proved a popular model . I've always regretted not buying one in the 80s, can't remember why not as I saw the real thing almost daily at Shields Road. I think it was maybe that I thought the production series would be different. Instead it got cancelled! Oh well maybe Rapido will take it on after the APT -E , after all they'll have worked out the tilting mechanism. Great blog from Simon, giving a behind the schemes look into Hornby. Just the sort of stuff I love. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Vistisen Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2014 Simon talks about the lack of a return of the APT being because health and safety would not allow the molds to be moved. AS an ex pat living abroad, I don't understand the power of the 'health and safety' men in the UK.. Just tell them to sod off, what are they going to do about it, report you to whom? who is their boss? There is not a policeman in the world who will respond to a call out about a man lifting a cardboard box that weighs a kilo more than is should. You can even use their own logic on them and tell them that they can't restrain you physically as they might come to harm if they do! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Simon talks about the lack of a return of the APT being because health and safety would not allow the molds to be moved. AS an ex pat living abroad, I don't understand the power of the 'health and safety' men in the UK.. Just tell them to sod off, what are they going to do about it, report you to whom? who is their boss? There is not a policeman in the world who will respond to a call out about a man lifting a cardboard box that weighs a kilo more than is should. You can even use their own logic on them and tell them that they can't restrain you physically as they might come to harm if they do! There is a tendency to shout "Health and safety gone mad!" way too readily in the UK. Thing is, if the safety case for a movement of say, several hundred kilos of injection moulding tools states that suitably qualified/certified staff must be available, and the required number are not then the company liability insurance would be null and void for that movement. Warehousing (which is what Margate became) is very different from manufacturing, and when manufacturing moved to China, I'd wager that most of those staff went on to other jobs outwith Hornby after the majority of tooling was shipped out to China as they were no longer required in Margate. So whilst a potentially hazardous movement of stock was technically possible, non-qualified staff would rightly refuse to do the move if ordered, and the safety officer would rightly point out it wasn't permissible in the first place. We live in an increasing litigious society (just take a look at those "Injured at work?" adverts from the various ambulance chasing law firms...) and any company has a duty to protect itself and its staff from potential litigation as well as take adequate provisions against accidents. Sometimes that means that the bleeding obvious isn't possible. One thing I have learnt in industry, is that any question that starts "Couldn't we just..?" invariably means you're pushing for a bad solution that will be against the best interests of the work at hand, no matter how well intentioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I wonder how many people have been maimed or killed because someone just ignored an inconvenient safety regulation? I've seen it, even been injured by an idiot who thought they new better than 'health and safety'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2014 A bit puzzling though. You would have thought you could get a specialist team in, assuming they couldn't do it themselves. Properly risk assessed I'm sure they could have done something! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Surely the 'easy' option is to laser-scan the tools near enough 'as they lie' in margate, and manufacture replicas in China? Assuming the tools are in store somewhere. Still, if the ATP-E is now being made by Rapido, I'd be surprised if the APT-P doesn't appear in the next 10 years from someone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I'm sure there was a reason, and I'm sure it was nothing to do with (real) Health and Safety. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Health & Safety is used as an excuse for everything, these days. Often, no H&S person has been anywhere near or made any assessment. If you don't fancy doing something and you can't think of a reason, just blame health & safety. It's not H&S that's gone mad it's the usual British approach of finding a way NOT to do something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 A bit puzzling though. You would have thought you could get a specialist team in, assuming they couldn't do it themselves. Properly risk assessed I'm sure they could have done something! Wasn't there mention before that certain areas of the Margate premises are not in the best of repair recently? That could possibly be another wrinkle in this. Surely the 'easy' option is to laser-scan the tools near enough 'as they lie' in margate, and manufacture replicas in China? Assuming the tools are in store somewhere. The same H&S issue that prevents moving the tooling would probably prevent it being moved out of storage to be accessible for scanning. Why not keep the tools where they are but switch them on and make the body shells in the UK? Source the running gear from China. There's nothing to switch on. The tools are used in conjunction with injection moulding machines which Margate no longer has. Ultimately, it's a cost issue. All H&S issues are pretty much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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