F1 Focus

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

We already have a perfectly acceptable F1 thread relating to the season as a whole...

 

So far the season has been nicely balanced, and none of the drivers in serious contention has a decisive advantage over other competitors, including their team mate where applicable. If it stays this close, the deciding factor on who gets the championship could well be whichever team first has an attack of managerial efficiency and issues orders. A driver with a team mate primarily there to run interference on other competitors is going to have a significant advantage. That was part of Schumi's success story at Ferrari: there was never any doubt who was there to be champion, and who was operating the mobile chicane...

Ooh, what a surprise.

 

And as we all know, one team is more equal than others when it comes to freedom of action. A 100K$ fee for the 'right' result will be covered by the petty cash department.

 

 

[Invicta]

Why not just have them race with Scalectric and then let some lawyers argue for a bit then announce who won a few days later? F1 is going the way of professional wrestling.

 

I've recently been digging through some old motor racing magazines for research purposes, and tripped over a piece someone wrote about 20 years ago in 'Autosport', in which they described a fictional season in the future where a new team joins F1 with obselete cast-off cars from a defunct back-of-the-grid team, third-rate paying drivers and a pit crew recruited from the local Kwik-Fit- but wins the championship because they've hired better lawyers than all the other teams and are able to protest their way to getting their rivals disqualified at every race....

 

IIRC, the story ends by reaching the logical conclusion- the abolition of all those time-consuming unneccesary races, and the establishment of an F1 lawyers' championship where McLaren, Ferrari etc enter teams from their legal departments to argue about the regulations in front of packed crowds of fans....

 

I've followed the sport for over 25 years now, and I swear, sometimes I really wonder why....

Fortunately I watched Top Gear last night- they did a short piece about Senna, which included Lewis Hamilton driving some laps in Senna's 1988-season McLaren at Silverstone- Seeing Hamilton's reactions to driving Senna's car was one of my F1 highlights of the year...

[Horsetan]

....IIRC, the story ends by reaching the logical conclusion- the abolition of all those time-consuming unneccesary races, and the establishment of an F1 lawyers' championship where McLaren, Ferrari etc enter teams from their legal departments to argue about the regulations in front of packed crowds of fans....

 

 

..... Lewis Hamilton driving some laps in Senna's 1988-season McLaren at Silverstone- Seeing Hamilton's reactions to driving Senna's car was one of my F1 highlights of the year...

 

Having not watched it yet, I'm guessing that he found the car a bit of a culture shock?

[Mucky Duck]

Having not watched it yet, I'm guessing that he found the car a bit of a culture shock?

 

Neither have I but I reckon it's more the sheer emotion of driving his hero's old motor!

 

Going back to the German Grand Prix fiasco. There's little enough overtaking in F1 as it is, and for Ferrari to blatantly deprive the

fans of a potential titanic battle – for the lead, no less – was criminal. Massa's engineer, Rob Smedley was clearly miffed at obviously

being told to give the 'order' and Ferrari clearly has not learnt from Austria 2002 when Jean Todt openly admitted that "This is not a

sport, it is a business". The arrogance is just limitless! It will cease to be even a business if the fans keep getting p***ed off.

 

Ironically, as head of the FIA, he will be one of those deciding what to do with Ferrari's faux pas.

[Mucky Duck]

Ironically, as head of the FIA, he will be one of those deciding what to do with Ferrari's faux pas.

 

Oops! I've just read that from the outset of Todt's appointment he removed himself from an official role in any sporting enquiries.

It will be interesting to see if and how Ferrari is punished further.

[298]

I can't see what the fuss is about (and a good result for Mclaren as it means Red Bull pick up less points than if the red team were disqualified). It was obvious what was going to happen, the surprise was the blatant manner in which it occured. I'm sure we'd all feel less cheated if the drivers had staged a few laps of having a bit of a scrap (like Hamilton & Button in China(?), before Masa accidently runs wide, and manages some kind of celebration for his best result in quite a few races. Either way, the result would still have been the same.

[Leicester Thumper]

Yes im with 298.

 

Thing is, the maclarens are in the lead on the leaderboard so with Hamilton and Button gaining points, they would be in such a significant position that it would mean that they would have an unfair advantage over ALL the other competitors, i think the FIA would have considered this.

 

Even if the disqualified Alonso, or even given him a 30 second time penalty the result would be the same as i just outlined.

 

If i was a decision maker i would fine them $100,000 and would demote them five places on the grid for the next race.

[Dave777]

Yup, can't really get worked up about it, it's always been a team sport.

 

On the football pitch, if a defender goes forward with the ball, goes round a couple of opposition players, runs into the penalty area and then passes to the star centre forward to score the goal no one goes into meltdown about the defender not getting a chance to score. It's a team game and you pass to the best person to get the goal and thus win the match. In F1 there's a team of 900-odd people all working towards winning the title. If you 'pass the ball' to the driver who has most chance of winning that title, so what?

 

The rule itself is the ridiculous thing, it's just unenforceable. Ferrari have to put on this charade of denying it when we all know they did it (and despite not being Ferrari's biggest fan I can't believe they like doing it or feel comfortable having to answer questions about it) and there's a big fuss over what is a very common occurance.

 

I didn't agree with Schumacher's comments that when it does occur it shouldn't be blatant - 'You have to do it in a way that's nice and maybe not too obvious, make it a nice fight'. Actually, I'd much prefer that it was transparent and observable and we didn't get some false 'race' or fight on the track.

 

Yes they broke the rules, but the rule itself is the 'wrong' thing in my view.

 

 

[Calnefoxile]

I've been thinking about this over the last couple of days, after initially screaming "You cheating B"£$%^&s" at the radio, (couldn't watch the race, was on call and got called out just before race started), my initial thoughts were give Alonso a drive through penalty, but after I'd calmed down a bit and though about it, I thought the only 'penalty' would be to strip them of their Constructor points.

 

But there's a problem, Ferrari were going to win the race full stop, no quibbles, either Massa or Alonso were going to win the race. Vettel was charging, but I don't think he could have got past either of the Ferraris, neither would Hamilton, Webber or Button.

 

So what do the FIA/MSC do???? I think the fine is potentially the only option available to them, why penalise the drivers for something that is not their fault??? It would have been better if Massa had said "Sod off" or something along those lines, like Webber did at Silverstone, when Red Bull made the 'Team' decision over the front wing by going on to blow the whole pack away and win.

 

Now I'm no Ferrari fan, but I cannot see how any sanctions can be bought against the Team without penalising the Drivers, who were the innocent parties in this, as well. Now I know Alonso was moaning about being stuck behind Massa, but in all reality the Team should have said, "tough mate, you're a great racing Driver, pass him" Senna/Prost even Mansell would have!!!!!!!!!

 

Anyway enough of my ramblings.

 

Regards

 

Neal.

[Steve K]

Now I'm no Ferrari fan, but I cannot see how any sanctions can be bought against the Team without penalising the Drivers, who were the innocent parties in this...

They could possibly decide to dock the team's points from the Constructors' competition (Ferrari are 3rd in that, and the loss of 43 points would hurt them more than $100,000), but let Alonso and Massa keep their points in the Drivers' championship.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Nah, if a rule applying to racing is to be observed, it is ultimately the driver who has to obey it. Stripping Massa and Ferrari of first place points is the correct response. He should have simply ignored the illegal instruction and carried on going just as fast as he could; then if Alonso won the place, it's legitimate.

 

This may seem very harsh on Massa, but that's the point. He won the lead fair and square on the track, and should have been allowed to defend it. If the drivers know that conforming to illegal requests from their team costs them all the points they were in line to win, this practise will stop immediately. The teams still have a mechanism to legally put the man they want ahead, in front of a teammate. Just fumble a wheelnut or whatever during a tyre change or bring the man in for a pit stop to fix a 'problem' to create enough delay for the preferred guy to go ahead. No infraction of the rule. Demoralised pit crew, but hey, that happens the other way too...

[Mucky Duck]

This is yet another problem for F1. I agree that banning team orders is a silly rule because it is difficult to police and everyone does it anyway.

To a point, teams should be able to do as they wish, for their own advantage… but what's the best way of going about manipulating results?

If you see team-mates moving out of the way when one is faster merely by a tenth of a second and you are denied a good race, at this stage

in the championship you simply switch off.

 

I wasn't livid, but I certainly would have been had I forked out considerable sums of money to attend that race. As it was, I was just very

disappointed and doubly so at the way it was handled… the way Massa gave way, glumness on the podium and the lying. It's a complicated

problem too – highly unlikey I suppose but imagine if Alonso now has a shunt in Hungary and breaks a leg? Massa's championship chances,

therefore Ferrari's, have already been effectively stuffed. Eddie Irvine narrowly missed out when Schuey broke his leg.

 

It was Ferrari's attitude by being 100% behind Schumacher EVERY year, culminating in the Austrian farce, which just about squeezed all

enjoyment from the sport and it was due to the massive backlash from the fans that the rule was introduced in the first place.

 

The bottom line is that motor racing fans want at least to see 'racing' even if they can't get much overtaking – and if they're not even getting

any racing, they'll go and watch other formulae instead, as a number of my friends have done already. Clearly, enough followers have aired

their grievances, it will be interesting to see how the F1 teams and the FIA deal with it in the long run.

[Steve K]

Of course, being Devil's Advocate for a moment, all it needs to stop this nonsense is for another team to get their car between the 2 Ferraris, and team orders will be of no use whatsoever!

[Neil]

Yup, can't really get worked up about it, it's always been a team sport. ....

 

Well yes it is and no it isn't. Admittedly there's the constructors championship (team) but the drivers championship is awarded to one man, it's not like a relay race, rowing or sailing where the whole team gets the same medal or not.

 

Though I'm not a gambling man, I imagine there'll be some seriously peeved punters who staked cash on Massa winning. I wonder how the legality of team orders from Ferrari stands up in this context?

[Dave777]

But the point is that it's not like Alonso turns up with his own car and goes racing - there's a huge team behind him to enable him to win that title. He's 'just' the driver.

 

The engineers, the tyre technicians, the fuelling man - they all act as a team to get a driver to win the race. Some teams just take that a stage further and include the chap in the other car into that same role of supporting the No. 1. Thus, a team sport. Johnny Herbert used to get called into the pits throughout his races at Benetton so that they could check the tyre wear when Schmacher was out in the lead. Herbert was effectively supporting Schu's title bid, just like Massa did on Sunday.

 

If we accept that ultimately the goal for a team is to get a driver to win the title, then Ferrari did the right thing on Sunday. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like it, but I accept it as part of the sport… because it has been for decades.

 

 

 

[skipepsi]

If Alonso can't beat Massa on the track then he doesn't deserve the Championship. I would be interested to know what the bookies made of the switch as team orders are banned in the regulations is it then classed as match fixing?

[Mucky Duck]

If we accept that ultimately the goal for a team is to get a driver to win the title, then Ferrari did the right thing on Sunday. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like it, but I accept it as part of the sport… because it has been for decades.

 

Ferrari may have 'done the right thing' for its own unltimate goal and it was probably the better result for the World title but the only way it could have been handled

any worse was for the 'exchange' to have happened on the last lap. It may be a team sport but there are effectively two teams – one each side of the garage – each as

competitive as their drivers. After all Massa's crew's efforts, I'm sure they all felt a bit cheated too. Massa and his engineer were clearly unhappy so I suspect that

hitherto they were being mislead into believing they had parity with Alonso but that the scenario of Massa leading the race just had not occured to the team. End result,

ugly, embarrassing post-race scenes and a load of unhappy F1 fans.

 

… and does anyone think for one second that had Massa been ahead in the championship, Alonso would be thinking of the team and moving over for him?

Was he thinking of the team when he blackmailed Ron Dennis in 2007? Absolutely not. Alonso thinks not of the team, he thinks only of Alonso.

[Dave777]

Fair points, and we could argue each side until the cows come home. I'd query the 'two teams, one each side of the garage' bit though as when it comes to deciding on strategy and tactics they're all in the room together. When one driver is doing pre-season testing the data is shared with the other. On Fridays one driver may be doing a run on full tanks and that data will be shared. When one driver pitstops and they check the tyre wear, that data will be shared. Yes the two drivers are competitive, but the whole setup is still operating as a team. If it really was teams within teams, they wouldn't share anything! (and when this has happened (eg, Senna/Prost, Piquet/Mansell or even Webber/Vettel) it makes the news because it's unusual. Teams working in harmony together are the norm).

 

Didn't Mansell ask for (and get) undisputed No. 1 status at Williams when he went back there in 1992 and won the title? And when Prost was arriving in 1993 as equal No. 1 he went off to the US in a huff about it. Long time ago now, I could be mistaken I admit, but... team orders again I'm afraid! Poor old Patrese in the supporting role.

 

It was certainly a disappointing end to the race however as up to that point it had been a half decent watch. Some very interesting comments here about Alonso's chances for the rest of the season:

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8856231.stm

 

We may not have heard the last of the fuss about this race yet if he goes on to win the title...

[trisonic]

I think that it is the hypocrisy that gets up people's noses (with regard to F1) . I moved over to Proto- Sports Car Racing (endurance) events in the early eighties - which really is a team event and everyone knows it and it is interesting.

 

Best, Pete.

[Guest D.J.K.]

Fortunately I watched Top Gear last night- they did a short piece about Senna, which included Lewis Hamilton driving some laps in Senna's 1988-season McLaren at Silverstone- Seeing Hamilton's reactions to driving Senna's car was one of my F1 highlights of the year...

 

Fully agree, The piece they did on Senna was excellent television in my view. Well worth a look if you see a repeat... Thoughtfully done, with some amazing footage of Sennas uncanny ability to control a car, and his total single mindedness when it came to winning......

 

Cheers Dave

[skipepsi]

From the look on Lewis Hamilton's face as he sat in Senna's car the BBC could have asked him for a million or two for the privelege and he would have paid up happily.

[Chameleon]

To use a sporting simile, I reckon Senna was a bit like Maradonna in a way. Absolutely sublime ability to drive a car in any conditions and to win a race or a championship through sheer skill.

On the other hand he had the willingness to punt his championship rival off the track and win by default only to say "###### happens" or words to that effect.

In the same way that Maradonna wouldn't think twice about blatantly cheating to win, but then following it up with one of the greatest goals of all time.

Schumacher is very similar, superb ability, tho he was helped by being made No1 in the team. A great driver, just not a sporting one.

 

Oh and as for the Ferrari carry on, I am not too bothered by the team orders thing as it goes on in every team to some degree. It was the blatant lying and treating all the fans as idiots by saying "we didn't do anything wrong. No team orders here, no siree, not us!" That really got my goat. You'd think they would have learned to be a wee bit more subtle about it after all these years. Alonso is spoilt and expects everything to be handed to him on a plate.

[Andy L]

Schumacher should be banned for that blatantly dangerous move on Barrichello. There was no excuse for that sort of move.

 

Well done to Mark Webber on the win, shame that Vettel couldn't get past Alonso.

[298]

Schumacher should be banned for that blatantly dangerous move on Barrichello. There was no excuse for that sort of move.

 

 

He got a 10 place grid penalty for Spa. Maybe he thought they were both still driving for Ferrari...?

[Rumblestripe]

Time for Schumacher to retire I think. That manoeuvre was downright dangerous as well as pointless (it was for 10th place for goodness sake!) plus Barrichello was in a much faster car. Unforgivable. A one race ban would have been more appropriate. As for the "apology", he'd have been better saying nothing!

 

"I didn't want to endanger him with my manoeuvre. If he had this feeling I am sorry, this was not my intention."

 

I don't know if that's a bad translation or Schumacher's grasp of the niceties of the english language but that reads like him saying "don't know what all the fuss is about, I left him several millimetres!"