JSpencer Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 First DJM & Kernow announce a 1361 and then Heljan annouces the same... Second DJM & Hattons announce a King and then Hornby announces the same.... I now predict that DJM & Rails will announce a Saint and then Bachmann will announce the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Hi Dave, Do you have a way of preventing light showing too much over the front wheels? A bit of an issue with a lot of 00 GW 4-cylinder models with inside cylinders and motion over the front of the bogie, and still having clearances for model curves. All the best, Rob The last two issues of MRJ have an article on building a King. This point is covered in the first of these. So simple when you know how. But you will have to read it as I am not giving the game away. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dickerson Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 DJM announced a new RTR steam industrial. No-one else has. Guess what I'd like to see prioritized. (Yes. It's obviously a separate bell for the King ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I now predict that DJM & Rails will announce a Saint and then Bachmann will announce the same. Please do that - straight and curved frame, capable of being converted to P4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Hornby did the definitive 'Castle' only to crap in it's own nest by producing a less than definitive 'Star' and GW 2-8-0T. This makes it difficult for purchasers to guess what standard Hornby will be working to with their next loco, and in this particular instance, a GW King. My bets therefore go with the Hattons commision. Seeing as competition is involved, the company commissioned to produce the Hattons model is doing right by keeping its cards close to its chest. There is already enough info in this thread to cause Hornby to upgrade its stall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted September 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 9, 2014 There is a lot of writing about who will produce the first model. The Bachmann 10000 came a while after the Dapol model and was still well received and sold well. The same with the Hornby standard 4 and B1 vs the Bachmann models, the reviews tended to favour tha latter introductions by Hornby in those cases. Given the history then it does not necessarily mean that a later introduction of DJM/ Hattons King would harm its prospects. Of course that is assuming it will be introduced later than the Hornby model. As long as it is not cancelled and there appears to be no sign of that, Dave's model will be worth waiting for..All we as punters need is reassurance that Dave's model will be made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 All we as punters need is reassurance that Dave's model will be made. The latter will doubtless happen if the orders come flooding in. Its a chicken or the egg senario. Of course all the news at this time seems be "we are still going ahead", but that could be reviewed if final demand is not high enough. Afterall I doubt that no one will produce 3000 models for an order book of only 300 locos in the hopes of selling to people who said "they might be interested our after comparison between them". If you want it, place orders for it. Waiting to see which is better could result in one not happening at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 If you want it, place orders for it. Waiting to see which is better could result in one not happening at all. If I'm not mistaken, Hornby was not noted for backing down when duplication raised it's head in the past, and so the redbox 'King' must surely be a go-er regardless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 First DJM & Kernow announce a 1361 and then Heljan annouces the same... Second DJM & Hattons announce a King and then Hornby announces the same.... I now predict that DJM & Rails will announce a Saint and then Bachmann will announce the same. No - I think it will be a Fell. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 As I mentioned at the time of DJM's original announcement, I'm impressed by the number of liveries available. Hornby have only got 3 listed and I think that this will really play into DJM's hands. The correct identity of loco is worth the extra £10 alone to me! As Coachmann has just said, Hornby's recent tract record on GWR locomotives hasn't been too great, but I think they must realise that this King needs to be top-notch as it has a direct competitor. I look forward to being able to compare them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 9, 2014 If I'm not mistaken, Hornby was not noted for backing down when duplication raised it's head in the past, and so the redbox 'King' must surely be a go-er regardless. I reckon both will be go-ers. The Hornby association with Steam, especially if the latter have invested any time (or even more so money - from, in effect, a public purse) is hardly likely to fall by the wayside - after all Steam were telling us the best part of a year ago that a 'King' was coming and it was intended to be something special (I am assuming that Steam's 'King' is coming from Hornby and that a third manufacturer isn't also in one the act). On the other side of the coin Hattons have got plenty of cash in hand and have a big market base which has, presumably, been told what to expect, so i can't see them backing down either although their model is inevitably more complex as it involves far more detail options. So the market will get two 'Kings' (not the first time that has happened of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 If I'm not mistaken, Hornby was not noted for backing down when duplication raised it's head in the past, and so the redbox 'King' must surely be a go-er regardless. Hornby have been known to postpone things if model shops are slow ordering items. That said - if they can sell them - then I don't see many model shops purposely cutting back their orders with Hornby to give the Hattons one a chance! (Topic edited as some did not realise which party it referred to). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 They have been known to postpone things if model shops are slow ordering items. That said - if they can sell them - then I don't see many model shops purposely cutting back their orders with Hornby to give the Hattons one a chance! Did I miss something, I thought that Hatton's only sold through their shop and not to retailers. Saying that Hatton's look to sell a lot of Hornby. Would Hornby cut or improve the discount given to shift the Hornby King at Hatton's, at the loss of Hatton's sales of there own loco? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 9, 2014 Did I miss something, I thought that Hatton's only sold through their shop and not to retailers. Saying that Hatton's look to sell a lot of Hornby. Would Hornby cut or improve the discount given to shift the Hornby King at Hatton's, at the loss of Hatton's sales of there own loco? This is going to be the fascinating bit of course - Hattons probably usually order Hornby locos in very large quantities but would they not order the 'King' (and lose its potential sales to thoroughly convinced red box buyers who won't look at anything and 'trust' Hornby). that one is going to be very much in Hattons court I think. Hattons have supplied trade customers but, as far as I'm aware, only at a very small discount and in tiny quantities. Whether they would vary that with the 'King' could mark a big shift in the commissioned models market but I would imagine their margins might be a bit tight to allow decent trade discounts. And if they're selling enough on own retail account why bother to seek other outlets? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted September 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 9, 2014 I suspect Hattons would not discount the Hornby King,. Hattons kept the Bachmann 10000 at the same price as the Dapol one, I imagine if they do sell it they will keep it top price or only sell the version (sound) that is more expensive than their own. When all is said and done they are a retailer and have to make money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 If I'm not mistaken, Hornby was not noted for backing down when duplication raised it's head in the past, and so the redbox 'King' must surely be a go-er regardless. They did back down on the Hall and built the Grange instead. EDIT: I was mistaken here - sorry Larry. My grey matter got fused incorrectly. Bachmann changed their plans to build a Grange and built the Hall instead. Hornby have announced their upgraded Hall in 2013, but this is after years of Bachmann enjoying sole provenance of the Hall. If I recall correctly Hornby announced the Hall first and Bachmann second. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 This is going to be the fascinating bit of course - Hattons probably usually order Hornby locos in very large quantities but would they not order the 'King' (and lose its potential sales to thoroughly convinced red box buyers who won't look at anything and 'trust' Hornby). that one is going to be very much in Hattons court I think. I suspect Hattons would not discount the Hornby King,. Hattons kept the Bachmann 10000 at the same price as the Dapol one, I imagine if they do sell it they will keep it top price or only sell the version (sound) that is more expensive than their own. When all is said and done they are a retailer and have to make money. It will be interesting to see how Hattons manages this moving forward. They will be the primary (if not sole) provider of the Hattons/DJM King. As noted they have sold duplicate items that compete with one of their commissions before. I agree that they are not likely to discount the Hornby King very much. Hornby's financial situation is such that they need items sold and it's hard to imagine that they would refuse to provide Kings to what might be their largest customer; or that Hattons would not want to offer them to people who like the Hornby brand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I have been following this most interesting topic (and have contributed as well) and as it is now to 11 pages and I've been busy on others things, I may have missed this: Will the models have working rocking bars in front of the outside cylinders? That would be fantastic! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Now that would be nice,we shall see no doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 9, 2014 It will be interesting to see how Hattons manages this moving forward. They will be the primary (if not sole) provider of the Hattons/DJM King. As noted they have sold duplicate items that compete with one of their commissions before. I agree that they are not likely to discount the Hornby King very much. Hornby's financial situation is such that they need items sold and it's hard to imagine that they would refuse to provide Kings to what might be their largest customer; or that Hattons would not want to offer them to people who like the Hornby brand. At Hornby's standard trade discount it isn't really feasible to offer much discount on retail prices - the only thing retailers can do, if they have the cash, is get the advantage of further discount with prompt payment. But if that means borrowing working capital (i.e. a bank loan) to finance the early payment I do wonder if the maths would be to their advantage. But if their business has plenty of cash behind it they can self-finance early payment and it then becomes, in strict business terms, a comparison between the bank interest and the extra sales they might generate by offering a greater (and it won't be much greater) retail discount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Hi All, Here is a little mood lightener... Did you know that: The king of Swindon, G. J. Churchward (the man, not No. 7017) was killed by Berkeley Castle (No. 4085, not the building) And that: The king of Didcot, King Edward II (the man, not No. 6023) was killed at Berkeley Castle (the building, not No. 4085). I'm not sure how relevant that is but I like it... It had a certain grim symmetry to it... I'll get my coat... All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffi_C Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I for one am very pleased that there'll be two manufacturers producing this, and wish both well. I'll be pre-ordering both. I doubt Hattons will get cold feet, regardless of the quality of the Hornby version. In recent years, the problem they have had with Hornby is chronic lack of supply. Providing Dave serves up a top-notch model, Hattons will have no difficulty selling them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taigatrommel Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 That's red hot information there Castle . I'd hate to be behind with such knowledge! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Hi All, Here is a little mood lightener... Did you know that: The king of Swindon, G. J. Churchward (the man, not No. 7017) was killed by Berkeley Castle (No. 4085, not the building) And that: The king of Didcot, King Edward II (the man, not No. 6023) was killed at Berkeley Castle (the building, not No. 4085). I'm not sure how relevant that is but I like it... It had a certain grim symmetry to it... I'll get my coat... better than getting that poker.............. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 That's red hot information there Castle . I'd hate to be behind with such knowledge! better than getting that poker.............. They don't like it up em! - Lance-Corporal Jones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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