Hattons announce OO Gauge King

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Well,we don't know what form this will take ,do we ? We have become so conditioned by the offerings from both Hornby and Bachmann that a little thinking outside the box is necessary.

Our continental HO colleagues such as Roco and Trix can show us the way here. A measure of inventiveness is required.It isn't beyond the bounds of possibility to improve on what we're used to...from one who finds some of Bachmann's loco to tender connections both crude and a damned nuisance.

Understand I am not 'agin progress'. But we have enjoyed progress, and have now achieved as near perfection as necessary! The loco to tender linkages in OO were once very crude, sloppy, gave overscale separation and intruded into what should have been clear air. Bachmann kicked off with a better solid metal drawbar in the right location, Hornby eventually followed suit, although they have somewhat fallen back from this standard. Lately Bach have refined the thing further, with the adjustable slide on the tender. This works very well and looks right, all the 'works' are concealed because a slim drawbar is correctly positioned between the drag boxes, and the tender frame conceals the rest.

 

Now, I cannot claim to have seen every recent HO product, but they are not as good in this respect as the best of what we now get in OO. There's slop from CCM where there shouldn't be any, and it can be visually intrusive. The best solution we now enjoy in OO is superior.

 

We have already seen the loss of what were previously well represented coal spaces in tenders sacrificed to making space for the DCC sound fad. I don't want more backward steps. Unfortunately there tends to a be a fashion in these sort of things...

[Rugd1022]

With the driver on the right how did he see the signals???

 

Quite a large number of signals on the Western were on the right hand side of the track, in fact some still are (Worcester still has some). Driver's route knowledge made sure they knew where they all were!

 

Regarding my previous post about the colour photos in David Jenkinson's 'Big Four In Colour' book - towards the back of the book there are three more shots of BR blue Kings, 6025 (with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender), 6009 and 6000 (both with the early crest).

[Ian Hargrave]

Understand I am not 'agin progress'. But we have enjoyed progress, and have now achieved as near perfection as necessary! The loco to tender linkages in OO were once very crude, sloppy, gave overscale separation and intruded into what should have been clear air. Bachmann kicked off with a better solid metal drawbar in the right location, Hornby eventually followed suit, although they have somewhat fallen back from this standard. Lately Bach have refined the thing further, with the adjustable slide on the tender. This works very well and looks right, all the 'works' are concealed because a slim drawbar is correctly positioned between the drag boxes, and the tender frame conceals the rest.

 

Now, I cannot claim to have seen every recent HO product, but they are not as good in this respect as the best of what we now get in OO. There's slop from CCM where there shouldn't be any, and it can be visually intrusive. The best solution we now enjoy in OO is superior.

 

We have already seen the loss of what were previously well represented coal spaces in tenders sacrificed to making space for the DCC sound fad. I don't want more backward steps. Unfortunately there tends to a be a fashion in these sort of things...

 

Having an extensive collection of HO r -t -r locos myself,mainly DB and DR ,I would contest your conclusion. There is in any case no such thing as perfection in the Model Railway world,otherwise,there would be no need for RMWeb !  As far as the Bachman slide bar is concerned,I repeat that I find it a nuisance and much prefer their more recent offerings which offer a permanently coupled model. There is also evidence to suggest that the slide bar arrangement sometimes contributes to loss of adhesion and traction in the loco when it fouls the fall plate...the A1 being a case in point.The plastic spigot can also be prone to breaking

 

I do not think we should close our minds to what may well be a significant step forward in close coupling. Let's just see what DJM design produces. You may well be pleasantly surprised

[Froxfield2012]

Yes Miss P, I have exactly the same print.  It is in a small collection of photographs I was given as a child by W G Chapman author of the GWR railway books.  Given that they carry various markups, I think they must have been used in one or other of the books:  very likely the "King of Railway Locomotives".  Clearly they are all official GWR photos.  Given the provenance, I will risk the copyright thing.  Mods, please remove if I offend.

 

The first is of KGV posed with the North Star replica some time before the trip to Baltimore and Ohio.  The second shows 6003 King George IV:  the back is dated 22 September 1931, although whether that is the date of the photograph or merely the particular print is not clear.  The third is a line up of five Kings in Swindon of which the first two (KGV and 6002 King William IV) have the garter crest:  this is dated on the reverse to 13 April 1928.

 

 

[jwd]

yep i'll have one of those please.......2016 seems soo far.....   

 

 

Just need some nice pre-war coaches to go with them....... you listening Dave?   

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 As far as the Bachman slide bar is concerned,I repeat that I find it a nuisance and much prefer their more recent offerings which offer a permanently coupled model...

We may be at cross purposes. The 'slide' I am talking about is as found on the more recent semi-permanently coupled models from the G2A onwards - that's the one I really like to the point of considering it 'good enough, already'. The first attempts at a simple drawbar in the dragboxes, as on the 5MT and A1 (designs of near 15 years ago) while an improvement over previous practise were indeed not a complete solution; although easy enough to modify to make good.

 

Admitted we have not seen the DJM 'solution', but slack is near inevitable. I see that European mainland prototype HO loco: watch the mighty tender inching into motion, before the loco turns a wheel. In some respects OO is actually drawing ahead of HO.

[The Stationmaster]

Difficult to assess. August 1945 and thereafter was a time when the country was drawing breath, and whilst lining was back on the painting agenda, it would have been applied only to locos having a significant works visit (intermediate or heavy). I very much doubt these much needed locos were dragged off revenue service purely for the sake of a re-instated painting policy. I take your point about Kings being pride of the fleet, but this probably manifested itself more in terms of cleanliness rather than contemporary painting specification. You'll be lucky to find sufficient 1945-8 pics good enough to prove the point one way or another in respect of the generality of the whole class.

Is there any firm evidence that 'King's were painted in unlined green?  Up until at least 1942 they were still being lined out  (or to be more pedantic examples were outshopped in lined livery in 1942) so is there definite information that some came out unlined or is it supposition based on what was happening with some classes?

[Ian Hargrave]

OK..then we're on the same wavelength.Still think we can learn much about close coupling from our HO counterparts. Motor in tender in some but Roco have for years used also a cardan shaft drive through to the loco drivers which compensates.I haven't seen anything yet in OO which compares.

Let's just agree to disagree and keep a mind open for progress which keeps us all happy.

[Ian Hargrave]

Is there any firm evidence that 'King's were painted in unlined green?  Up until at least 1942 they were still being lined out  (or to be more pedantic examples were outshopped in lined livery in 1942) so is there definite information that some came out unlined or is it supposition based on what was happening with some classes?

We have a 'black hole' of any kind of definitive evidence here,unless someone has some old negatives in a tin box at the back of the wardrobe

If any GWR archives still survive,that might be the place to look.

[Miss Prism]

Is there any firm evidence that 'King's were painted in unlined green?  Up until at least 1942 they were still being lined out  (or to be more pedantic examples were outshopped in lined livery in 1942) so is there definite information that some came out unlined or is it supposition based on what was happening with some classes?

 

There is a WWII pic of 6029 devoid of lining in the O S Nock. The safety valve cover is painted, and the top of the chimney is black.

 

How many other Kings appeared that way in the comparatively small window of 1942-5 is conjecture.

[MikeParkin65]

Please can we have proper connecting rods like Bachmann and not the skinny things like Hornby.

[DJM Dave]

Please can we have proper connecting rods like Bachmann and not the skinny things like Hornby.

:-) yes you may :-)

[steve fay]

Is there any firm evidence that 'King's were painted in unlined green?  Up until at least 1942 they were still being lined out  (or to be more pedantic examples were outshopped in lined livery in 1942) so is there definite information that some came out unlined or is it supposition based on what was happening with some classes?

I've got a picture of one unlined, il see if I can dig it out

[Focalplane]

I don't know what other modellers feelings are but I would like the front end to be minus a tension lock coupling so more detail can be incorporated especially on the front of the bogie.I wouldn't be using my King tender first so just a thought.Bachmann's City is spoilt by a hideous coupling.

 

Of course I might be in the minority here.

 

I totally agree as the first thing I will do is fit screw link couplers front and rear.  My travails with various wagons bring me close to cursing at times.  I should add that I am pre-ordering one. just which one I have yet to decide.  Choices, choices!

[Focalplane]

A personal comment from the 1950s. I grew up just south of Birmingham and my father, who was a WWI veteran (I think I was a celebration of VE in 1944) and who saw WWII through the eyes of the Home Guard picking up incendiary bombs from the roofs of what is now the post code B1, always took the GW line to London. Platform 7 at Snow Hill has a special place in my heart because he used to take me to see the engines after a trip from Oswestry, Shrewsbury, etc. This iconic location has long since gone but has at least been captured in photos and paintings. My father died in early 1956, but this memory is one of the strongest to a lad who was only ten at the time.

 

Later I vividly remember leaning out of a carriage window near Bicester and listening to the four cylinder beat of a King on a up train. Probably had twelve on and may well have exceeded 80 mph around Denham. Kings were plough horses when Castles were racehorses. Heavy trains and stiff gradients on both the Plymouth and Wolverhampton runs needed those 40,000+ lbs of tractive effort.

 

Favorite name board for a Midlander? The Inter city! Favorite King? Any from 84A. But I will probably go for a GWR livery, yet to decide.

[gwrrob]

I know it was only announced on Monday but I'm wondering which of the 14 different variations on the Hattons website has had the most pre- orders so far.

 

Place your bets gentlemen.

[steve fay]

Here we go

[Rugd1022]

Lovely find that Steve

 

A hand me down print of KGV heading north through Southam Road & Harbury with (I think) the down Cambrian Coast Express in the '50s - first coach is a Hawksworth but those behind it look like Mk1s...

 

 

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

.... I see that European mainland prototype HO loco: watch the mighty tender inching into motion, before the loco turns a wheel. ....

I can top that.

 

The HR DB Br.10 Pacific I acquired last year doesn't even need the engine in front; the tender will quite happily haul a train all by itself. Quite a bizarre sight.

[Ozexpatriate]

I know it was only announced on Monday but I'm wondering which of the 14 different variations on the Hattons website has had the most pre- orders so far.

 

Place your bets gentlemen.

I have to say that I am very impressed with the range of livery combinations offered. 

 

There really is something for everyone. I really doubt that any other manufacturer would offer such a range of liveries.

 

HK01 ... GWR ... Lined green ................... 6000 ... King George V .... Great (garter crest) Western

HK02 ... GWR ... Lined green ................... 6019 ... King Henry V ....... Great (arms) Western

HK03 ... GWR ... Lined green ................... 6021 ... King Richard II ..... Shirtbutton

HK04 ... GWR ... Unlined green ................ 6029 ... King Edward VIII .. G (arms) W

HK05 ... GWR ... Lined green ................... 6018 ... King Henry VI ...... G (arms) W

HK06 ... BR ....... Ultramarine blue ............ 6025 ... King Henry III ....... BRITISH RAILWAYS (BR style)

HK07 ... BR ....... Lined green ................... 6027 ... King Richard I ..... BRITISH RAILWAYS (GWR style)

HK08 ... BR ....... Lined blue ..................... 6028 ... King George VI ... BR early crest

HK09 ... BR ....... Lined blue ..................... 6023 ... King Edward II ..... BR early crest

HK10 ... BR ....... Lined green ................... 6009 ... King Charles II .... BR early crest

HK11 ... BR ....... Lined green ................... 6017 ... King Edward IV ... BR late crest

HK12 ... BR ....... Lined green ................... 6026 ... King John ........... BR late crest

HK13 ... BR ....... Lined green (weathered) 6005 ... King George II .... BR late crest

HK14 ... BR ....... Lined green ................... 6024 ... King Edward I ..... BR late crest

 

With such variety I think it might well be a somewhat even spread. It will be curious to see how many people go for N^o. 6025.

[Ian Hargrave]

A personal comment from the 1950s. I grew up just south of Birmingham and my father, who was a WWI veteran (I think I was a celebration of VE in 1944) and who saw WWII through the eyes of the Home Guard picking up incendiary bombs from the roofs of what is now the post code B1, always took the GW line to London. Platform 7 at Snow Hill has a special place in my heart because he used to take me to see the engines after a trip from Oswestry, Shrewsbury, etc. This iconic location has long since gone but has at least been captured in photos and paintings. My father died in early 1956, but this memory is one of the strongest to a lad who was only ten at the time.

Later I vividly remember leaning out of a carriage window near Bicester and listening to the four cylinder beat of a King on a up train. Probably had twelve on and may well have exceeded 80 mph around Denham. Kings were plough horses when Castles were racehorses. Heavy trains and stiff gradients on both the Plymouth and Wolverhampton runs needed those 40,000+ lbs of tractive effort.

Favorite name board for a Midlander? The Inter city! Favorite King? Any from 84A. But I will probably go for a GWR livery, yet to decide.

My first recollection of Kings was at Wolverhampton Low Level on Paddington-Birkehead expresses in the early 1950's. They were in blue then.King James the Second...6008...sticks in my mind.

Thus,I will definitely be ordering one in blue first of all.After that....spoiled for choice aren't we ?

[Ozexpatriate]

That is going to be one heck of a task Dave - especially in the BR period when the final state (double chimney, high temperature superheat, renewed front end and so on) started to almost make them look like different engines from certain angles.  

Who's going to ask for the different height cab etc for BR loading gauge nowadays? More to the point who's going to notice? Lol

Just sorting out whether the late crest liveries should have double chimneys is tricky enough. 

[Cor-onGRT4]

Just waiting for years hoping Hornby would make a supermodel, and still waiting, an great wonderfull news

was announced in supermodel version.

I have considered to buy the Golden age model but 1250 pounds for just one loco is a lot of money,

now I can buy two and maybe three for a maxium amount of 510 pounds , would'nt that be wonderfull?

So I just ordered King George V and King Henry V in GWR version and thinking about King Richard II

It will be worth the waiting for maybe two years, but seen the specs it will be a hitter.

[The Stationmaster]

Just sorting out whether the late crest liveries should have double chimneys is tricky enough. 

 

 

The simple answer is probably most if not all as various members of the class were running with double chimneys with the early emblem on the tender,  I have so far traced the following (all with the first pattern of double chimney) with the early BR crest on the tender

 

6002 (not confirmed but most likely), the rest are all confirmed from photos - 6013, 6015, 6021, 6022, and 6027.

 

What I think is almost certain is that none of the class ran with the early crest on the tender when they had the final pattern of double chimney.  What I can't answer is Ozxp's original question but I think it fairly likely that all engines with the late crest had a double chimney (of one sort or the other).

 

And of course coming from the home of standardisation (sic) the detail variations were many whether or not they had strengthened bogies, original or 'new' buffers and so on - the only real answer is dated picture of an indiividual engine.

[southernelectric]

You've done it again Mr Jones. I got two pre-ordered today. What other surprises are you lining up eh? First the '71, which I just had to get a couple ordered.

 

Now you empty my wallet again with the King! Staying on the Western theme, how about a Hymek next? The Heljan model leaves a lot to be desired. That's one diesel loco absolutely crying out for a decent, highly detailed model (IMHO).