The future for 7mm

[81A Oldoak]

I don't particularly care for the coarse scale stuff, but I take the view that any model railway is better than no model railway. I think we're a broad church and so in accord with the 7th verse of the fifteenth chapter of the Gospel According to Saint Luke, I welcome all people upgrading from Masterpiece, Lee Marsh, Golden Age etc to Ixion. 

[steve fay]

Why? When I go to an exhibition I like to see all the exhibits not just the ones in the scale I model in or if it's Continental of American or British, standard gauge or narrow gauge the variations are endless. I also appreciate the plastic modellers, military modellers etc. The Gazette caters for all tastes in 0 gauge like the RTR,and Kit manufacturers do, after all some of us choose to build everything whilst others get someone else to build it for them. 0 gauge modelling is a very diverse pastime and I'm sure that it will continue to grow. After all we are grown men/women just playing with our toys and that hasn't changed in a very long time.

That's fine I also appreciate good modelling in any scale especially model aircraft, as for all gauges there are plenty of magazines that fulfil that requirement. I'm talking about a dedicated fine scale mag including any form of O gauge be it narrow gauge US, British or continental outline.

I don't tend to do multi gauge exhibitions any more I prefer the dedicated 7mm ones

 

I'm just musing but a good quality quarterly mag like the GW journal but for quality 7mm modelling. I think

Would be great.

[cromptonnut]

I don't think you need worry - I can't see coarse-scale usurping fine-scale, it's very much a niche market. All of us kit builders and scratchbuilders will carry on with FS and S7 and the RTR buyers will buy what they want. z

 

You do realise I guess that not all rtr is 'coarse scale'?

 

Certainly none of Heljan's or Ixion's releases - and many would argue neither the Dapol wagons - are "coarse scale" in the same respect as the old tinplate models.

 

It was the "unless its kit or scratchbuilt it's not proper modelling" attitude that caused me to resign my Guild membership - and contrary to what some may believe, that is the biggest threat to the future of 7mm modelling.

[2ManySpams]

.....although I do sometimes cringe when looking at some of the articles in the Gazette (no names, no packdrill) one can quickly turn the page. Each to their own....

I agree there Chaz, in the year I was a member of the G0G I was somewhat disappointed by the quality of the headline acts in the Gazette. Each to his own but there was too much of the overall G0G package that wasn't my personal cup of tea that I didn't renew. I much prefer the down to earth advice and great modelling I find on here.

[JeffP]

Me too.

[chaz]

I see what your saying and like you I just turn the page, ok then if not the guild

Do you think it would be good to have a finescale dedicated group ? Or a dedicated 7mm finescale magazine. I mean there's plenty of superb o gauge models and layouts out there they certainly wouldn't be short of content.

 

I agree with the sentiments expressed by both Mike and Chris above. At the risk of repeating myself there is room for both approaches. As I might quickly turn the page of a magazine I might also walk passed a layout at a show - but always acknowledging that one man's meat.....

[chaz]

You do realise I guess that not all rtr is 'coarse scale'?

 

Certainly none of Heljan's or Ixion's releases - and many would argue neither the Dapol wagons - are "coarse scale" in the same respect as the old tinplate models.

 

It was the "unless its kit or scratchbuilt it's not proper modelling" attitude that caused me to resign my Guild membership - and contrary to what some may believe, that is the biggest threat to the future of 7mm modelling.

 

"You do realise I guess that not all rtr is 'coarse scale'?"   Yes I do realise that. As I will be running a Heljan EE type one and an Ixion Hudswell Clarke on Dock Green at Telford amongst my kit built steam tanks you will see that my tastes are broad. I have heard people propose that "unless its kit or scratchbuilt it's not proper modelling" and they are, of course, entitled to their opinion. We don't need to be so insecure as to worry about that! Whether there are threats to our hobby will depend to a large extent on how many people are interested. While there's a market someone will provide for it. If it dies out it will be because not enough people care, in which case - so what? No, my feeling is it will continue as a minority interest (compared with 4mm) for a while yet.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

That's fine I also appreciate good modelling in any scale especially model aircraft, as for all gauges there are plenty of magazines that fulfil that requirement. I'm talking about a dedicated fine scale mag including any form of O gauge be it narrow gauge US, British or continental outline.

I don't tend to do multi gauge exhibitions any more I prefer the dedicated 7mm ones

 

I'm just musing but a good quality quarterly mag like the GW journal but for quality 7mm modelling. I think

Would be great.

 

An MRJ look-alike but devoted to "quality 7mm modelling" perhaps? Yes, that would be good and I would certainly subscribe. Are you going to start it up?

[Silverstreak]

Steve, I think your last sentence in your opening message has it spot on. Some of our premier kit producers are seeking retirement and can see that the golden years of producing quality kits for people to build is on a downward spiral. It has been those who can remember BR steam that have been their core customer base and they now have all of the kits they want, be they built or waiting in the cupboard.  Also ready to run has eroded sales of kits further, though we will never see in O gauge the vast array of classes that has seen a virtual wipe out of 4mm kit building. Thankfully Dave Sharp at MOK appears to be bucking the trend and his 9F is eagerly awaited.

 

For many years O Gauge was seen as an old mans hobby but that changed when JLTRT superb diesel kits came on the scene. Heljan has encouraged the younger generation even more with their RTR diesel range. I can only see this increasing though it wont take long to produce all of the relevant diesel classes compared to the multitude of steam classes built.

 

Micheal Brooks should be congratulated as he really pioneered the Rolls Royce of RTR locomotive models and Lee Marsh appears to be following in his footsteps. For me the remainder are a fair way behind.

 

Regards

Bob

[steve fay]

I've always held golden age in high regard, there Pullmans are superb and the A4 is stunning.

[L&Y]

Interesting topic. I have chosen O gauge from 2mm & previously several OO layouts. On grounds of cost. 4mm is going through the roof. £200 for a loco. £35 for a coach.  While it can be argued that it's worth it. At least in O I have room for less than a quarter of what I could fit in in OO. Don't even mention 2mm. I live in the third world. Yorkshire. And that money is out of my budget. The labour in an O gauge rtr loco is little different from a OO loco. There are more materials but they are not the big expense. Some O gauge prices I find completely crazy. I could commission a live steam loco for less than the price of some O gauge offerings. Buying stock at these prices is like buying an original picture. A work of art. Its a different hobby. As said one mans meat.....  But there are enough down to earth suppliers of kits & rtr that make it viable for me. I am too young to remember mainline steam. But that's what I model because the steam railway is far more diverse & interesting than modern image. And also I love steam engines. And its pregrouping that I wish to model. I like the detail that can be added in this scale & the mass of the stock. There is still a good range of kits in this scale & thats were I'm looking. Ian Kirk coaches are sensible money. Compared to Heljan they are a bargain. C&L track components seem cheap compared to Peco.  I can not be alone in my thinking. With the support of Dapol, Ixion, & still a good range of kit manufacturers. Parkside dundas & slaters to name but a few. There will always be a market for kits in a such a relatively low volume scale as this.There must be a bright future for O.

[81A Oldoak]

Interesting topic. I have chosen O gauge from 2mm & previously several OO layouts. On grounds of cost. 4mm is going through the roof. £200 for a loco. £35 for a coach.  While it can be argued that it's worth it. At least in O I have room for less than a quarter of what I could fit in in OO. Don't even mention 2mm. I live in the third world. Yorkshire. And that money is out of my budget. The labour in an O gauge rtr loco is little different from a OO loco. There are more materials but they are not the big expense. Some O gauge prices I find completely crazy. I could commission a live steam loco for less than the price of some O gauge offerings. Buying stock at these prices is like buying an original picture. A work of art. Its a different hobby. As said one mans meat.....  But there are enough down to earth suppliers of kits & rtr that make it viable for me. I am too young to remember mainline steam. But that's what I model because the steam railway is far more diverse & interesting than modern image. And also I love steam engines. And its pregrouping that I wish to model. I like the detail that can be added in this scale & the mass of the stock. There is still a good range of kits in this scale & thats were I'm looking. Ian Kirk coaches are sensible money. Compared to Heljan they are a bargain. C&L track components seem cheap compared to Peco.  I can not be alone in my thinking. With the support of Dapol, Ixion, & still a good range of kit manufacturers. Parkside dundas & slaters to name but a few. There will always be a market for kits in a such a relatively low volume scale as this.There must be a bright future for O.

And we have yet to to realise and exploit the opportunities that might arise from new technology such as 3D printing. Just think about about how fast laser-cut wooden kits are transforming the construction of buildings.

[Boatman]

"You ran behind the bus and saved 3d?"  "Good, good...so why didn't you run behind the taxi and save £5?"

Old joke, but it makes me think, "Why not make your own and save a bl**dy fortune?"

 

Boatman

[ZiderHead]

As far as metal kits go (and the structural use of metal gets more important the larger the scale) my crystal ball reveals an interesting near future. Etching will give way to laser cutting/engraving, and casting to 3D metal printing. Much higher resolution and no tooling to pay for or wear out. If you have accurate drawings/3D scans to work from and the drafting skills and nouse to design a buildable kit (some things never change…) creating kits will be quicker, cheaper and easier.

 

Will people want to build kits? I suspect the % of geeks* doesn't change over time, some people just like making stuff

 

 

 

* used in the pre-war sense - General Electrical and Engineering Knowledge. 

[chaz]

There was a time, not so long ago, when I used to go to shows and whatever 7mm was there the standard was pretty uniform - excellent locos and rolling-stock, scenery dire or even non-existant. I remember a common lament being "this bloke likes building locos but has no interest in a convincing setting for them". There was almost an acceptance that a high standard for the whole layout wasn't possible with O gauge. The fact that this is no longer true (although there is still a stubborn rearguard) is, I assert, one of the best reasons for optimism for 7mm.

[0_gauge_novice]

Hi Steve,

 

In continental Europe there is a dedicated 7mm magazine for finescale. The only problem is that it is in german. "Spur 0 Magazin" it is called. In continental europe there has been an explosion of 0 gauge modellers due to Lenz and I got also into that last year.Now many companies are going along like Brawa with their superb Wagons and MBW.

 

Cheers

Andreas

[81A Oldoak]

Hi Steve,

 

In continental Europe there is a dedicated 7mm magazine for finescale. The only problem is that it is in german. "Spur 0 Magazin" it is called. In continental europe there has been an explosion of 0 gauge modellers due to Lenz and I got also into that last year.Now many companies are going along like Brawa with their superb Wagons and MBW.

 

Cheers

Andreas

I visit Germany and Switzerland quite often on business and will buy a copy of "Spur 0 Magazin'. It's a first class publication und Ich spreche Deutsche so reading it is kein Problem . I've also looked at the Lenz 0 gauge products over there. The diesels are a nice reminder of my army postings to Germany. In Fallingbostel, which is on the branch from Hannover to Soltau, there were sidings and loading platforms for armoured vehicles moving to and from the Bergen-Hohne firing ranges. It would make an interesting model. All very tempting. 

[steve fay]

Well if the Germans can do it then surely we can

[2ManySpams]

There was a time, not so long ago, when I used to go to shows and whatever 7mm was there the standard was pretty uniform - excellent locos and rolling-stock, scenery dire or even non-existant. I remember a common lament being "this bloke likes building locos but has no interest in a convincing setting for them". There was almost an acceptance that a high standard for the whole layout wasn't possible with O gauge. The fact that this is no longer true (although there is still a stubborn rearguard) is, I assert, one of the best reasons for optimism for 7mm.

Totally agree Chaz. Having attended three gauge specific shows in the last 18 months I got the distinct impression that your rear guard are in fact the core of the G0G. I'm full of hope for the future of 7mm though because there are now a growing band moving the scale on both within and without the G0G.

 

I must admit that at one point I considered that it was the old attitudes within the Guild itself that were holding back the popularity of the scale. Newbies like me do get the impression that unless you have a fully kitted out workshop, and build highly polished exhibition quality locos from hunks of metal, you are not really G0G material.*

 

But, if you look beyond this rear guard you'll find plenty of modellers now making great use of RTR and kits and setting trains in highly believable settings. This latter, non-workshop owing, approach really does it for me and, as I've said before, the down to earth help I get on here is invaluable.

 

I see the scale moving on in leaps and bounds, supported by progressive manufacturers like Ixion. The only issue I see is that the G0G is in danger of becoming less and less relevant to new entrants.

 

As to improvements in the future, surely it's about time that Slaters produced wheels that don't start rusting as soon as they are removed from the pack!

 

(* I note though that there are plenty of builders on here who do build there own stuff in workshops who do have an inclusive attitude and are keen to advise and help Newbies. A big thank you to them from me - I wouldn't be succeeding with my first loco kit without them.)

[2ManySpams]

It was the rear guard attitude that made me give up the GOG after 13 years. I think the great locomotves /cr#p scenery was evident in the gazette. Far too many articles on loco building, especially those where the kit in question had serious faults. But that is another topic for discussion. Absolutely nothing on the scenic and operating side in the gazette. I find the non gauge specific MRJ and RMWeb far more inspirational.

I got the impression that your rank within the Guide depended on how little of a kit was used in the final model and how much you could bash the manufacturers product!

 

There is always scope to improve kits by adding your own touches but it was the air of one-upmanship and point scoring that got me. It's not what you do it's the way that you do it...and the attitude you have.

[Gilbert]

I'm going to say something in defence of the GOG here. Since I moved to O Gauge I've had very practical help in numerous ways - without naming names I've received fantastic practical support on couplings which included being given a very helpful jig, I've had support on kit construction from their loco clinic and I started soldering brass after a 3 hour tutored clinic at Telford which cost me less than the kit I built never mind the wheels etc also included in the package - every coin....as they say..

 

The impression I have is that they want people to succeed in 0 gauge and it has not felt exclusive to me - and compares well with some other organisations I've been or am part of..

 

Chris

[2ManySpams]

Sadly I had the opposite at shows. Having my questions blatantly ignored, being talked down to and downright rudeness from one official at Kettering. All things I've not experienced at any other gathering.

 

Perhaps it's the lack of grey hair ;-p

[81A Oldoak]

Well if the Germans can do it then surely we can

The prices of the Lenz kit are very keen and I want to find out more about where they are made. We have a specialist 0 retailer in Germany so I may ask him.

[Mike]

I wondered how long it would be before this thread got around to having a go at the Guild. I have found and to continue to find the Guild friendly and supportive.As an independent modeller ie not belonging to a club, I have made a number of friends through the Guild and its shows. I have never been talked down to or ignored, but encouraged and given practical help by Guild members.Unfortunately in life there are times when you can feel excluded by society , from school onwards. I have yet to find the perfect club, even on this forum there are those that can be unwelcoming, sometimes ridiculing the efforts of other users. So lets get back on track, stop knocking the Guild which over time has developed and progressed 0 gauge modelling,

[cromptonnut]

 the Guild which over time has developed and progressed 0 gauge modelling,

 

... and arguably, in many ways, held it back by certain attitudes of which I am not the only one to experience.

 

Unfortunately you can't talk about O gauge modelling without mentioning the Guild somewhere.

 

A few years ago when I started a thread on RMWeb asking whether joining the Guild was worth it, I got a mixed - as expected - bunch of comments. I decided the only way to find out was to try it for one year and joined up.  Once all my 'stuff' had arrived and I got access to their forums, I found a long thread on there referring to the thread over here encouraging people to come over and "defend the Guild" despite all people were doing here was sharing their experiences and reasons for joining or not joining. 

 

After putting up with about 6 months of abuse on the forums for modelling diesels, and not being a "proper modeller" because I used Peco track and a Heljan 33 (in blue, not even a green one) sadly proved to me that people "like me" (I believe the term was used several times) didn't belong, so I told them where they could stick their group.

 

I've happily carried on modelling in 7mm without any help from the Guild, and to be honest the only thing I really miss is the product directory because so many O gauge manufacturers of the "little bits" have no interest in having a web presence of any kind, or taking steps to make themselves known outside of advertising in the Gazette which leaves me only the Kettering show and the Reading show as an opportunity to pick up odds and ends I didn't know I wanted.

 

You "get something" from the Guild.  That's great.  Unfortunately that seems to be the experience of many members, a lot of whom just maintain their membership out of habit because they are too old to model any more and a lot just build things because they can and have no actual layout to run anything on.  I came along, young (comparatively) enthusiastic and willing to give by helping out with things but got absolutely nowhere.  So I gave up, a man can only take so much rejection and put-down.  I almost gave up modelling 7mm altogether and didn't even open the door to the modelling room for nearly 3 months.