The future for 7mm

[t-b-g]

There is a distinct split in the O gauge modelling world. There are still a good number of people who are a bit in the dark ages with regard to not just the layouts themselves but with the locos and stock too. I had a good look at some O gauge stuff for sale on a stall at the recent show at Loughborough. Most of it was dreadful! Ill proportioned, badly built, dodgy liveries. Layouts seem to have mix of areas/eras/standards and the scenic work has what I call the "dolls house" look.

 

And then there are a growing band of people who have probably changed from modelling in 4mm scale and are trying to build 4mm style layouts but bigger.

 

These seem to actually have some sort of clue as to how to build a layout that is a cohesive and realistic model of a scene, with locos and stock appropriate to the area and period of the setting, plus scenic work that looks believable and realistic.

 

Having a go at the GOG is all well and good and most gauge related societies have their good and bad points but I think it is fair to say that without it, O gauge would have died some time ago. There are some pretty off putting characters in most of the similar societies and a lot depends on which individuals you are dealing with rather than the society as a whole.

 

Tony

[bbishop]

Interesting discussion.  I have a split personality, modelling German Spur Null which is mainly RTR, yet also involved with two friends' layouts.  One is pre grouping so is a mix of scratch and kit building.  The other is 1960, so there is an option to buy RTR.  Yet I have only purchased one item, unobtainable in kit form, and even feel a tad guilty about it.

 

Anyway must go, packing up Höchstädt for Telford, and transport has just arrived.

 

Bill

[HSB]

Hi Steve,

 

In continental Europe there is a dedicated 7mm magazine for finescale. The only problem is that it is in german. "Spur 0 Magazin" it is called. In continental europe there has been an explosion of 0 gauge modellers due to Lenz and I got also into that last year.Now many companies are going along like Brawa with their superb Wagons and MBW.

 

Cheers

Andreas

Spur Null Magazin have a website which can be translated into English (more or less!)

 

http://www.spurnull-magazin.de/

[alant]

I agree that many O gauge layouts of old were pretty much devoid of scenery and if any was present, it was usually to a poor standard.

 

I believe it was the likes of Martyn Welch with Hursley and the MRJ team with Inkerman Steet that convinced me that an O gauge layout could look good scenically. Both of those layouts were constructed a good few years ago now so things have moved on considerably.

 

Alan.

[81A Oldoak]

Just submitted my tax return :-(. Reckon I'll be able to run to a new, but expensive bottle of Mek-Pak at Telford tomorrow. Meanwhile, off to the garage to cheer myself up with some track ballasting on Cwm Bach; yes, it's that bad.  

[0_gauge_novice]

Thinking about the future of 7mm, I have the opinion that Steve should get his @ss down and finish the S160 kit.... I want 2 of them No Telford this weekend for him........

[steve fay]

I've recently rejoined the guild after a few years absence, I'm yet to decide on it's merits but I thought I would give it another go.

The main benefits, the discount going in to shows. I'm still not convinced on the gazette but then I'm not a subscriber or regular purchaser of any magazine.

Now some really like and defend the guild some don't, but no discussion on all things 7mm can leave it out.

I think it's fair on an open forum for any one to voice there opinions.

I my self have had snooty remarks when I told some one I model in 7mm and that, that was my engine on display. Only for their face to change like the wind blew when Pete Waterman started talking to me about it.

Judgeing a book and all that.

That said I have made friends who are guild demonstraters but not directly through the guild it's self.

It definetly serves a purpose but not for all.

Do you need to be a member to model 7mm? No

Does it help? Well that's for each individual to decide

[steve fay]

Thinking about the future of 7mm, I have the opinion that Steve should get his @ss down and finish the S160 kit.... I want 2 of them No Telford this weekend for him........

I'm taking the tender bogies up to Telford for Pete Harvey so it's moving along but slowly

[Mike]

... and arguably, in many ways, held it back by certain attitudes of which I am not the only one to experience.

 

Unfortunately you can't talk about O gauge modelling without mentioning the Guild somewhere.

 

A few years ago when I started a thread on RMWeb asking whether joining the Guild was worth it, I got a mixed - as expected - bunch of comments. I decided the only way to find out was to try it for one year and joined up.  Once all my 'stuff' had arrived and I got access to their forums, I found a long thread on there referring to the thread over here encouraging people to come over and "defend the Guild" despite all people were doing here was sharing their experiences and reasons for joining or not joining. 

 

After putting up with about 6 months of abuse on the forums for modelling diesels, and not being a "proper modeller" because I used Peco track and a Heljan 33 (in blue, not even a green one) sadly proved to me that people "like me" (I believe the term was used several times) didn't belong, so I told them where they could stick their group.

 

I've happily carried on modelling in 7mm without any help from the Guild, and to be honest the only thing I really miss is the product directory because so many O gauge manufacturers of the "little bits" have no interest in having a web presence of any kind, or taking steps to make themselves known outside of advertising in the Gazette which leaves me only the Kettering show and the Reading show as an opportunity to pick up odds and ends I didn't know I wanted.

 

You "get something" from the Guild.  That's great.  Unfortunately that seems to be the experience of many members, a lot of whom just maintain their membership out of habit because they are too old to model any more and a lot just build things because they can and have no actual layout to run anything on.  I came along, young (comparatively) enthusiastic and willing to give by helping out with things but got absolutely nowhere.  So I gave up, a man can only take so much rejection and put-down.  I almost gave up modelling 7mm altogether and didn't even open the door to the modelling room for nearly 3 months.

I for one and there were several others, defended you on the forum. The RTR section is basically down to your efforts. However, you don't get change by a head on confrontation you need a balanced approach to win over others with sound reasoning and judgement. The Gazette content has been mentioned, it can only be as good as the input of the members contributions, so instead of bemoaning at its contents, write something and submit an article. OK, that's me done, I'll get back to grooming my grey hair and polishing the walking frame.

[cromptonnut]

I for one and there were several others, defended you on the forum. The RTR section is basically down to your efforts. However, you don't get change by a head on confrontation you need a balanced approach to win over others with sound reasoning and judgement. The Gazette content has been mentioned, it can only be as good as the input of the members contributions, so instead of bemoaning at its contents, write something and submit an article. OK, that's me done, I'll get back to grooming my grey hair and polishing the walking frame.

 

As I am no longer a member I'm not in a position to submit anything even if I could come up with something of interest.  I also don't have access to any of the "member only" sections so I don't know what changes may have been made after my departure - maybe some of the points I raised did start some discussions and made "the powers that be" realise the need for some changes.  If so, then my £24 was worth it.

 

But that goes back to points made earlier, in that out of 6,000 or so members (I think was the figure) you'd see the same names time and time again appearing with articles, letters, reviews and whatnot.  I know not everyone can write good enough or take decent pictures but I'm sure that if there had been a call for volunteers to help with that sort of thing you'd have had some offers meaning a wider range of articles on a wider range of subjects, rather than the all too common "I bought a kit and threw half of it away" approach.

[JeffP]

Sadly I had the opposite at shows. Having my questions blatantly ignored, being talked down to and downright rudeness from one official at Kettering. All things I've not experienced at any other gathering.

 

Perhaps it's the lack of grey hair ;-p

I had that at Kettering......but from someone exhibiting! The name will be known to quite a few......NOT one of the manufacturers.

 

Must be something in the water.

[2ManySpams]

Despite my misgivings about the G0G itself I should say that I will be visiting the Telford show on Sunday. I have a long list of items to seek out and RMweb members to catch up with.

 

I'll be attending with an open mind and look forward to enjoying the show. I hope that, unlike Kettering, I won't be told that if locos costing many £1000s seemed too much then I should go back to playing with my Hornby trainset!

[cromptonnut]

I'll be attending with an open mind and look forward to enjoying the show. I hope that, unlike Kettering, I won't be told that if locos costing many £1000s seemed too much then I should go back to playing with my Hornby trainset!

 

You were seriously told that by someone???

[2ManySpams]

You were seriously told that by someone???

Yes, with quite a lot of acidity too. There was no joke in the statement. It came in response to a comment I'd made regarding the Golden Age Bulleids and that I'd love to have one but couldn't justify the expense at the moment. BTW the person was not connected with Golden Age.

[steve fay]

Well I know what I would have said and it wouldn't have been pretty

[Silverstreak]

3D Metal printing------- well I'm sure many of us O Gaugers hope we last long enough to see it become a reality !!!!!

[The Nth Degree]

In defense of the Guild (in some part), it is an organisation that supports all gauge-related models. It's not dependent on the level of detail, ability or whether you run your railway with electricity from the mains or batteries or from steam. The only consistent feature is the gauge. In that respect, it supports many shows and even individual clubs with financial grants.

 

Personally, I find the forum topics slightly tedious – banal even – and for the most part it can't hold a candle to somewhere like here or Western Thunder, for two examples. Although, on the other hand, I was greeted with open arms when I first enquired on joining and was taken around that particular show personally by one of the Guild reps. That kind of service is unmatchable anywhere.

 

I witnessed the 'Cromptongate' affair and it was very disappointing to see, and I said so. Like everywhere in life there are personalities that are stronger than others and their voices always seem to be that little bit louder – but it certainly doesn't mean they speak for the group as a whole, or that they should be listened to.

 

Back to the subject at hand though, I don't expect there to be a huge growth in 7mm modelling – unless some dramatic marketing genius can build on the popularity of Hachette partworks, or something similar. In fact, choice of models, kits, etc will be dwindling in the next few years with a spate of recent retirements and announcements. What will be left are the Heljans and JLTRTs of the industry, with a growing percentage of modellers who produce their own niche products.

 

I think the next five years or so are going to be very telling of the future.

[cromptonnut]

3D Metal printing------- well I'm sure many of us O Gaugers hope we last long enough to see it become a reality !!!!!

 

It's already here - http://www.shapeways.com/materials/steel

 

The problem at the moment is that it's perfectly possible, just incredibly expensive due to the size even with the resin.

 

But to a degree I agree with you that 3D printing for those one-off and oddball things is the future - I've just found an O gauge tortoise, for example, quite reasonably priced if you happen to need one for a garden...

[cromptonnut]

I witnessed the 'Cromptongate' affair and it was very disappointing to see, and I said so.

 

I became a "gate"?  Fame or infamy... not sure

 

I hear a lot of modellers saying that they'd love to get into O gauge, but it's the cost that puts them off.  Items like the Dapol Terrier and 08 will be just enough to persuade people to "give it a go" with a short shunting plank type of layout especially if the prices can be maintained.

 

But people don't realise that things aren't actually that bad after all because you don't need the same amount of stuff as you do in the smaller scales - and I don't think that's promoted well enough anywhere.  Many of us don't just start modelling with O but investigate O after years of modelling in OO.

 

Think of your typical OO layout, a dozen locos, a couple of dozen coaches and maybe 50-100 wagons.  10-20 points. 

 

With typical OO locos costing around £100, coaches around the £30 mark and larger wagons heading the same way, you could look at perhaps £3000 of stock accumulated even on a modest layout.

 

Now (prices from Tower but other suppliers etc etc) take your Ixion Hudswell Clarke at £225, six Dapol wagons at £35 each that's around £450.  A couple of Peco points and some flexitrack, maybe another £130, and you have enough for a small layout.  £600 plus boards and some scenery.  You might then buy a couple of wagon kits to expand your fleet having enjoyed the "presence" of O gauge.

 

In smaller scales, we often go for the "long trains going round and round" but by the necessity of the size of O have to "downscale our ambitions" as unless you have a loft or garden you aren't going to be able to run any sort of decent size train in O gauge - so we turn our minds towards the little backwater terminals, forgotten or run-down industrial settings or similar.  Or those that do go for the more "larger" approach it's perhaps loco plus 3 or a DMU shuttle.

 

What is really needed is an O gauge version of the Cyril Freezer books showing you what can be achieved in O gauge in small spaces.  I know the Guild have produced books along those lines but virtually every plan seemed to require handbuilt trackwork rather than using Peco points to become a true "beginners book".  There was talk before I left of a third book in the series but I have no idea whether that got finished or not.  If Peco ever get round to producing the O gauge 'setrack points' that have been mentioned for over a year (to go with the straights and curves already out) those will be perfect to go with the small industrial settings, 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 steam and diesel locos.

[2ManySpams]

Jim at Connoisseur is still ploughing on and producing new and better stuff. Just noted that he now does an O2. Looks like I could have a crack at that at some stage.

[The Nth Degree]

The next booklet is an 'inspiration' booklet, so not necessarily full of track plans, etc. As far as I know it's not been produced yet.

[2ManySpams]

I became a "gate"? Fame or infamy... not sure

 

I hear a lot of modellers saying that they'd love to get into O gauge, but it's the cost that puts them off. Items like the Dapol Terrier and 08 will be just enough to persuade people to "give it a go" with a short shunting plank type of layout especially if the prices can be maintained.

 

But people don't realise that things aren't actually that bad after all because you don't need the same amount of stuff as you do in the smaller scales - and I don't think that's promoted well enough anywhere. Many of us don't just start modelling with O but investigate O after years of modelling in OO.

 

Think of your typical OO layout, a dozen locos, a couple of dozen coaches and maybe 50-100 wagons. 10-20 points.

 

With typical OO locos costing around £100, coaches around the £30 mark and larger wagons heading the same way, you could look at perhaps £3000 of stock accumulated even on a modest layout.

 

Now (prices from Tower but other suppliers etc etc) take your Ixion Hudswell Clarke at £225, six Dapol wagons at £35 each that's around £450. A couple of Peco points and some flexitrack, maybe another £130, and you have enough for a small layout. £600 plus boards and some scenery. You might then buy a couple of wagon kits to expand your fleet having enjoyed the "presence" of O gauge.

 

In smaller scales, we often go for the "long trains going round and round" but by the necessity of the size of O have to "downscale our ambitions" as unless you have a loft or garden you aren't going to be able to run any sort of decent size train in O gauge - so we turn our minds towards the little backwater terminals, forgotten or run-down industrial settings or similar. Or those that do go for the more "larger" approach it's perhaps loco plus 3 or a DMU shuttle.

 

What is really needed is an O gauge version of the Cyril Freezer books showing you what can be achieved in O gauge in small spaces. I know the Guild have produced books along those lines but virtually every plan seemed to require handbuilt trackwork rather than using Peco points to become a true "beginners book". There was talk before I left of a third book in the series but I have no idea whether that got finished or not. If Peco ever get round to producing the O gauge 'setrack points' that have been mentioned for over a year (to go with the straights and curves already out) those will be perfect to go with the small industrial settings, 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 steam and diesel locos.

I agree with you on the cost issue. Having a smaller layout and being focused on what the layout really needs stockwise has meant I'm actually spending less per year than when I was full into RTR 4mm.

[cromptonnut]

I agree with you on the cost issue. Having a smaller layout and being focused on what the layout really needs stockwise has meant I'm actually spending less per year than when I was full into rtfryder 4mm.

 

It's also much harder to "impulse buy" a £200 kit whereas it's easy to walk into a model shop and pick up a £15 wagon you don't really need "but it looks nice" especially when there are few shops that stock a wide range of O gauge you can go in and browse - although of course you can shop online just as easily.

 

Hence why it's good that I only really spend on O gauge at Reading and Kettering - it gives me the rest of the year to save up for the things I want and to get to the point where I know that my list has been whittled down to what I need rather than what I would like.  But then you do fins bargains and things you hadn't thought about getting which then throw the whole thing into a total disaster and the journey home thinking up how I am going to explain the next credit card bill to SWMBO.

[The Nth Degree]

With bigger models you can appreciate them from a greater distance. You don't have to pick them up from the track to see the pipework, or the cab detail or bogie springs – you can see all that while it's trundling past. The appreciation of your models shifts from quantity to quality in 0 gauge.

[2ManySpams]

When on holiday this year I made a point of dropping into some new (to me) model shops. Having my 7mm head on meant I left empty handed. Had I had my 4mm head on, I'm sure there would have surely been an impulse purchase. As you say - more focused buying has resulted in lower overall costs.