The future for 7mm

[John Tomlinson]

Cromptonnut above makes some good points. I'd like to see some plans for smaller spaces - perhaps up to 5 x 4m - that would suit an attic, garage or large bedroom, and involve continuous run. I've already had the graph paper out!

 

I think Marcway of Sheffield do ready to install points of down to 48inch radius, which whilst a little more expensive than Peco (they are hand built) aren't exorbitant.

 

Adding to the comments about Heljan diesels in 7mm, Tower (and maybe others) did further discounts on their already discounted price on the Hymeks, 20's and 47's. The Hymeks at £300 especially seemed to me to be phenomenally good value.

 

John.

[81A Oldoak]

Despite my misgivings about the G0G itself I should say that I will be visiting the Telford show on Sunday. I have a long list of items to seek out and RMweb members to catch up with.

 

I'll be attending with an open mind and look forward to enjoying the show. I hope that, unlike Kettering, I won't be told that if locos costing many £1000s seemed too much then I should go back to playing with my Hornby trainset!

I wonder what these people think of our little Hudswell Clarke and Fowler? They probably know that I was an army officer for fifteen years with experience in action so keeping quiet - cowardice is the technical term - is probably a better idea. However, I simply don't understand why people are rude about or critical of others people's interests, level of skill, financial meands etc. Everyone's pounds are as good as the next person's and this is a past-time and hobby for heaven's sake.

[2ManySpams]

I wonder what these people think of our little Hudswell Clarke and Fowler? They probably know that I was an army officer for fifteen years with experience in action so keeping quiet - cowardice is the technical term - is probably a better idea. However, I simply don't understand why people are rude about or critical of others people's interests, level of skill, financial meands etc. Everyone's pounds are as good as the next person's and this is a past-time and hobby for heaven's sake.

To be honest I no longer care what they think. My opinion is that Ixion (introducing more affordable RTR locos), Parkside (by producing wagon kits that just about anyone can build with limited kit) and Connoisseur (for his skill builder series of kits encouraging folk to have a go at brass) have done 7mm no end of good over the years.

 

Some may decry this as deskilling 7mm but I see it as opening the 7mm door to more people. Just look at what the ingenious folk on here do with the Ixion products for instance: new bodies, different variants, altered liveries - even down to fitting big buffers made from drawing pins.

 

I see this as good for the long term as this gives an accessible starting point for people to get a layout going and then progress as time, finances and imagination allow.

[cromptonnut]

However, I simply don't understand why people are rude about or critical of others people's interests, level of skill, financial means etc.

 

It's back to the "elitism" label that is often bandied around in relation to the Guild.  Only a small percentage of modellers can build to "their standards" and thus it is special and if everyone can achieve good results then it loses its specialness.

 

Remember when DCC was new, and sound fitted locos were the most amazing thing you could get, however crude and tinny the sound might have been back then compared to current standards?  Now every man and their dog runs DCC sound and you can even buy ready fitted locos, it's lost its special appeal and almost become "normal".  I remember the first time I heard a DCC sound loco, it was at Osborns when they were in Abingdon, and the Bachmann sound fitted 47 had just arrived in that morning.  "Have a listen to this" said Maurice and half an hour later I walked out the shop with the loco in a carrier bag.  I hadn't meant to buy it, but I couldn't resist it as I was just completely mindblown with the concept (I now have about 10 sound fitted locos including both my O gauge locos).  I didn't even have a layout to run it on at the time so I spent hours running it up and down a length of flexitrack and letting it tick over in the background as I was doing other things because it was great to have that sound, to me it was just like driving the real thing rather than a plastic model.

 

I can understand some concerns about the "dumbing down" of 7mm but if it's a choice between more rtr stock as a gateway for new modellers who may then progress on to building kits ... or 7mm dying out through lack of modellers and manufacturers and the skills/tools required to assemble things... then surely the former option has to be preferable to even the most advanced  and highly skilled 7mm modellers?

[HeavyDuty]

It's back to the "elitism" label that is often bandied around in relation to the Guild.  Only a small percentage of modellers can build to "their standards" and thus it is special and if everyone can achieve good results then it loses its specialness.  (snipped for brevity)

 

Some things are the same all over - US O scale suffers from the same common attitude!  It is slowly changing here, though...

[cromptonnut]

Cromptonnut above makes some good points. I'd like to see some plans for smaller spaces - perhaps up to 5 x 4m - that would suit an attic, garage or large bedroom, and involve continuous run. I've already had the graph paper out!

 

A rough calculation shows me that something like Apa Park should be achieveable in 16ft x 4ft in O gauge or less - what O gauge needs is layouts of that standard, in "normal home spaces", at exhibitions.  As much as I love to watch Peter Clark's Leavesden in action, at 49ft long it's not something that a lone modeller like me is ever likely to achieve.

 

Not that many clubs have an O gauge section, and even the Guild's area groups (which I recall was a 'selling point' of membership) aren't all they are meant to be - when I tried to make contact with my local group I was told that basically they are just a few friends that meet at each other's homes and weren't really open to new people to join them if they didn't already know them.  If, like me, you're an even smaller minority - a diesel modeller in O gauge - then it's even harder to find like minded people, although thankfully through RMWeb I have found one about 10 miles away and we chat regularly and swap layout ideas. 

[alant]

With regards to layout planning, PECO provide plans for their turnouts on their website so it's possible to print out actual sizes to use for planning purposes. I guess judging curve radius is not so easy as this will depend on what stock you intend to use and also to a certain extent what coupling system etc.

[ozzyo]

It's back to the "elitism" label that is often bandied around in relation to the Guild.  Only a small percentage of modellers can build to "their standards" and thus it is special and if everyone can achieve good results then it loses its specialness.

 

 

Er. this elitist bit gets me as when I started dabbling in 7mm all I was building in 4mm was the likes of K's, whills, D.J.H and Proscale.

That is how I cut my teeth in kit building as I would expect a lot of people to do at that time (the 80s).

One of my first kits in 7mm was the Slater's curved frame Kirtley, not the easiest kit to build with all of that curved running plate, but I just like the look of the loco.

After that I did not build a loco for a number of years.

After that I started building locos again.

 

After saying all of the above, I may have had a few small problems with some locos. But not like any of the problems that I have heard about in some of the "well" made R-T-R locos.

[Mike]

I have never come across this elitist attitude that Cromptonnut refers to. My first 0gauge loco was a scratch built Adams Radial, far from perfect, but well received by skilled Guild Members. They encouraged me to carry on building and I hope I have got better over time. Now white haired and can remember the big 4. So perhaps I'm in the old buffers brigade.

 

 

RTR surely is buying and using a ready to run item Finescale Brass etc  along with Dapol, Ixion, Heljan. not forgetting a loco built from a kit by someone to your  specification and then running it on your railway.

[Mike Boucher]

Some things are the same all over - US O scale suffers from the same common attitude!  It is slowly changing here, though...

 

I'm going to disagree with this a little bit.  I've been involved in the US 2 rail O scale world for 20+ years, and the "elitism" I saw had nothing to do with your modelling ability, as most of them didn't build a damn thing for themselves.  They just had a big enough checkbook to buy all the brass locos they wanted and drop them on the track.  I'm not sure its changed too much, other than the boxes changed from Overland green and PSC orange to Atlas O blue...

 

Hell, even Intermountain found that people were much more likely to buy RTR than their plastic kits, and soon after they started having them assembled in China could only buy RTR from them.  I'm disappointed that San Juan just produced a tank car thats only available as RTR instead of a kit (like their Fowler boxcar was)

 

Personally, I get most of my enjoyment from the hobby by building stuff.  I get bored putting my stuff on the layout at shows and watching them go around.  I would rather be sitting at my workbench building something.  Someday I'll make more progress on my On3 layout (3' x 18' switching layout), but for now I'm happy.

 

I got into British prototype because I like the locomotives, and I wanted the challenge of building in Brass.  Its a new skill set.  When people see the finished car (I've only actually built a Connoisseur Loriot and a D&S brake van (which I'm still painting!)) and then I show them a new etched brass kit, they're pretty amazed.  I'm looking forward to my next challenge: a running 7mm loco.

[0_gauge_novice]

Gentelmen,

 

sorry for being so direct, as I am new in RMWeb and 7mm modelling.. but....hey...its a hobby! I read 5 pages here about Philosophies, Scratchbuilding, kitbashing, being critisised for your work, lobbying...what the heck! It is still a hobby, and a wonderful one. If you make 4mm, 7mm, 2mm, HO, N, O, G...IJoe its your decision. I like both HO and O, both are fascinating in their way and I would never leave one! About clubs etc....I am only 34 but I have lived all that! I dont care a bit...if I want to join I join....I go there, get some beers, built something, discuss, have fun...that is all it is there. What I enjoy and I think is important in the work of other people and in mine of course is improvement! Acquiring techniques, discovering talents! If somebody wants to do that with RTR its ok! He/She enjoys that, thats fine with me. If he/she like kit- scratch building that fine.

 

Now cutting to the chase.....

 

WHEN WILL STEVE FAY FINISH THAT S160??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

 

Cheers from Zurich

Andreas

[steve fay]

Andreas

Pete Harvey is doing the kit on my behalf, I really hope it happens as I think it will be a popular one.

Steve

[raymw]

If you want to scratch build everything, then chose a sensinble scale - 6mm to the foot would work fine.

[2ManySpams]

If you want to scratch build everything, then chose a sensinble scale - 6mm to the foot would work fine.

I must admit that I have wondered why 7mm / 1:43. Neither number is great for mental maths. This came as a shock after spending years working to a scale where 3" (approx one brick course) is a very handy 1mm.

[Kickstart]

I must admit that I have wondered why 7mm / 1:43. Neither number is great for mental maths. This came as a shock after spending years working to a scale where 3" (approx one brick course) is a very handy 1mm.

 

For many it is probably strange enough that the common model railways scales in the UK are a mix of metric and imperial (ie Xmm to the foot).

 

While there are probably plenty like me who went to primary school in the 1970s and were taught both (and for myself landed up with a bad habit of switching between them depending on what is convenient, of even mixing them with measurements), I think the scales were defined with such a mix long before we were schooled.

 

As to O gauge, for me I want to make something. I think the Ixion models are lovely and I do keep thinking about one (or the Dapol Terrier), and far better than I can even dream of building but I am trying to avoid just buying something (I do some wargaming as well, and similarly try and avoid buying painted miniatures - even when painted to a far better standard than I can manage). Maybe just realising how short lived anything I have made in my working life has been.

 

All the best

 

Keith

[brianthesnail96]

Just back from an evening with a friendly bunch of 0 gaugeists, running trains, drinking tea and putting the world to rights. No pointing fingers at kit building ability (or lack of), money (or lack of), interest in building locos or building layouts etc etc.

 

So from my point of view I don't think the world of 7mm is doomed, far from it, although as with everything it's slowly evolving & there will always be some (generally those with an interest, be it financial or just personal, in something that is becoming obsolete or less revered as a result of that evolution, sometimes those for whom it isn't evolving fast enough...) that will protest against that, often vocally. The internet provides an easy platform to proclaim one's woes from, which I suspect makes things sound rather more doom & gloom than it is in the real world.

 

Totally unrelated, but that's a familiar avatar Keith. The H100 you gave us some technical advice on some 6 1/2 years ago on BCF is still going strong!

[L&Y]

Some of  Mr Freezers plans work in O gauge. I'm using my version of  one of his plans.  I don't think that the track problem is real as it's so easy to build points in this scale. Peco points at £60 each. Do they really cost that much more to make than a OO one? Peco haven't raised there standards in 40 years. How they are still in business astounds me. C&L track should not be cheaper. But it is. My layout has to be dual purpose. It has to interest me but also please my son. So some robust rtr is necassary. If everything is scratch built I won't keep up with the maintenance! All locos will need a solid milled chassis to stand a chance of being mishandled. I dropped a few Hornby locos as a kid. Kit chassis in 30thou brass would not have survived for long! I may end up with two sets of stock. Some Dapol? rtr stuff for my lad. And some more homespun/kit stock for myself.... Far from dumbing down It just broadens the appeal. I have no doubt that there will be a Dapol 7mm trainset before long. That can only be a good thing. 

[hartleymartin]

Treat yourself to an Ixion Hudswell Clarke. I think that this model has set the standard for R-T-R O gauge in the future.

[cromptonnut]

Peco points at £60 each. Do they really cost that much more to make than a OO one?

 

It's more than likely down to the smaller market share, one of the reasons everything O gauge is more expensive.

 

EHattons are showing left and right points at £36, curved points at £47 and the double slip at £75.  If you're paying £60 for a normal Peco point you might want to shop around...

[flexible_coupling]

Simple question: does anyone pick O-scale on the assumption of it being easy?

[2ManySpams]

Simple question: does anyone pick O-scale on the assumption of it being easy?

Nope, I picked it as a challenge. I've never before built track, baseboards or brass kits.

[Manxman110]

I have followed this thread and it has been fascinating with some really well reasoned points of view quite a few that I have found myself nodding in agreement with.

Admitting to the grey hair(actually I think silver is more accurate)I started with railway modelling as a child with Dublo 3 rail and still get nostalgic whenever I see the Dublo "Duchess of Montrose" and I still recall the boyhood discussions on the relative merits of three rail v two rail. I thought that argument had been resolved until visiting Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg earlier this year and finding that the demise of three rail had been exaggerated.

Anyway I digress - after the usual gap for career and girls I ventured back into railway modelling via N gauge but that lasted only a few years as I was disappointed with appearance and running. The bug bit again several years later when, inspired by the Manx Electric Railway I delved in to the mysterious world of building and running 4 mm trams. This was a lot like O gauge as little ready to run and if you wanted a particular model then you built yourself. Again, like O gauge it was well supported by cottage industries. A house move put the trams into retirement but I had found I liked the challenge of building things and the additional challenge of using live overmhead was most satisfying when things ran well. The trams may well be 're-reincarnated` if retirement ever arrives!

One childhood memory that always stayed with me was visiting a house where a child slightly older than I got out his railway which consisted of track and a single large locomotive called Princess Royal. The size and mass were impressive and only in later years did I realise that it was O gauge. Fast forward to the millennium year and out of the blue I succumbed to a mad impulse to build an O gauge locomotive kit and a DJH Fairburn tank kit appeared(perhaps inspired by memories of the Dublo 2-6-4. I joined the guild, visited Telford and the world of O gauge suddenly opened up.Needing space to run O gauge the garden loomed. Then DCC arrived. And then suddenly rtr O gauge leapt forward and like so many others I succumbed to the seductive power of the Heljan diesels. Looking further afield the products of Bachmann/San Cheng also found places in my fleet and then rakes of MTH coaches were required. Yes my tastes are a bit eclectic and there is no doubt that I am a purists nightmare. Things have to look right and run well. There is no doubt that the mass and presence contribute strongly to the latter.I have recently started retro fitting kadee couplings to most of my stock to help with reliable running but principally to reduce the amount of aggressive handling that seemed to be associated with three link couplings. Purists throw up their arms at that thought but the compromise the couplings represent is not obvious in use.

If you have read this far you are probably wondering what the relevance is to the future of O gauge that started this thread. My point is that if you step back and review the past few years O gauge has developed and through the work of many companies like Ixxion,JLRT, Dapol, Heljan, San Cheng to name a few all well supported by the likes of Skytrex,DJH, Connesieur, Duncan`s Models, Invertrain and a host of others and they have taken the gauge to new levels and to a wider variety of people. I think this is very positive for the present but what about the future? Changes to the number and variety of suppliers will always be unsettling. At the moment I wonder who will fill the gap left by the withdrawal of San Cheng but overall I feel very positive about the future for O gauge.Yes, it will continue to change and not everybody will be happy with the changes but nothing new there. However if the gauge can continue to attract people like Crompton nut and if the manufacturers(rtr and kit) continue to produce products that appeal to the general market both in terms of price and quality then with the other non gauge specific changes like DCC then I believe the future for O Gauge is optimistic.

[Guest Jim Read]

Simple question: does anyone pick O-scale on the assumption of it being easy?

Hello FC,

 

I failed to make anything in 2mm, 3mm and 4mm and more in desperation than anything else turned to 0 gauge. At the time I wasn't very well paid and had to make everything myself.

I made a Manning Wardle 0-6-0; the body from Plastikard, the chassis from brass drilled with a hand drill.

 

I found a book 'Card rolling stock and how to make it' (or something like that) I made wagons from card, paper and Seccotine glue for the rivets and at the time I was able to buy axle boxes from CCW quite cheaply, now I make them from card and paper.

 

I make my own track from rail, card sleepers and copper clad strips for the points.

This point is made wholly from card except for the tie bar

 

I taught myself electronics in order to make a controller that is still unequalled by any commercial offering.

 

And to those who are going to say, "You've got the skills" I say absolute rubbish for I had to develop them from nothing, with no internet, few books and guesswork.

 

I think the essence of modelling is to make as much as you can yourself and 7mm is the easiest scale to do it in. It is at the same time the cheapest if you make stuff and the most expensive of the small scales if you buy stuff.

 

Cheers - Jim

 

[edit] speeling

[Boatman]

Good for you, Jim.  A breath of fresh air AND nice stuff.  Hat's off for that controller. Electrics is one step beyond for me. I can't get the interest for it and so can't learn it, but then nothing moves on my models!  Spoils the effect<G>

 

I model in 7mm, so that I can use the model road vehicles that I've made the masters for over the years.  Otherwise I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. Such an annoying scale.  I'd use 1/48th otherwise.  It's on my steel rule!

 

Regards,

Boatman

[81A Oldoak]

I spent yesterday at Guildex in Telford. It is the first time I have been able to attend because it usually clashes with the Reinsurance Rendezvous in Monte Carlo, which is a week later than usual. I had a great time meeting traders, happy customers, friends and several fellow commentators from RMWeb. It was of course great to see Ixion locos on several layouts and to receive compliments from happy owners, especially those who took the plunge because of the Hudswell Clarke. I spent time investigating 3D printing and the opportunities it throws up; a couple of ideas are germinating. I loved the pre-pro JLTRT Class 22; it looked spot on and I must have one. It was nice to handle the Dapol Terrier EPs; I've had a brace on order for a while.

I also managed to do some business, but I think the proceeds were almost immediately passed on to other traders. I mean, a Lionheart crimson and cream GWR auto coach for £250? It would have been rude not to take one. Yes, I think we are in good order as a hobby.

Regards,

Chris