Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[aardvark]

Yes, I wish I could use something just to support a local business.

 

[St Enodoc]

A nice eBay win last night - a made-up Slater's Toplight CK in crimson and cream, from Australia to boot so no stupid GSP shipping charges to pay!

[St Enodoc]

Today I finished the work I started last week on the line clear releases. I've now added all the wiring I can until I build the casing for St Enodoc lever frame and mount the various switches and LEDs in it.

 

As you can see, I removed all the temporary point switches (except for the hand point in the goods yard) and converted one of them to close the Line Clear circuit for Porthmellyn Road 9 signal (Down Branch Advanced Starting). This means that the actual release button, with its LED, can now be activated from St Enodoc instead of being permanently energised. The signalling and block arrangements at Porthmellyn Road are, therefore, finally complete.

 

The four vacant terminals at the top left of the choccy block are for the lever release buttons for St Enodoc 3 signal (Down Main Advanced Starting) and 25 signal (Up Main Advanced Starting). I'll install them when the casing is built but they won't come into play until the signals go in.

 

To round off the day, I separated the St Enodoc lever numbers from their fret and also made up a short dummy 9-way harness connecting two more choccy blocks, so that I can mock up and test the First-Come-First-Served Tokenless Block (FCFSTB) system for the single line to Pentowan.

 

Tomorrow I'm off to Peter the Cornishman's again for the BRMA meeting. Should be fun.

[Brinkly]

Lovely video and fantastic work on the lever frame.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[Barry O]

Enjoy your trip out. Hope it all goes well. Bestvregards to all I have met.

 

I have umpiring tomorrow and Sunday so little modelling time available..

 

Baz

[Coach bogie]

On 04/08/2022 at 21:26, St Enodoc said:

A nice eBay win last night - a made-up Slater's Toplight CK in crimson and cream, from Australia to boot so no stupid GSP shipping charges to pay!

Did well, myself at a local Brisbane Trains sale, last weekend. I was told I was the only one interested. Maybe because there were bits missing from most. Why do people do that? Just need my tools to arrive to start building them.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

Did well, myself at a local Brisbane Trains sale, last weekend. I was told I was the only one interested. Maybe because there were bits missing from most. Why do people do that? Just need my tools to arrive to start building them.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Well done! Our market here is relatively small, so good stuff doesn't come up very often - but when it does the small market means that not so many people are chasing it.

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, Brinkly said:

Lovely video and fantastic work on the lever frame.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

Thanks Nick. Just bookmarked Dartmoor Model Services thanks to @TrevorP1!

[Graham T]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Just bookmarked Dartmoor Model Services thanks to @TrevorP1!

 

Same here 🙂

 

I think he might need to get his printer working faster!

[St Enodoc]

Two jobs today, each started but not finished yet.

 

First I stuck the lever numbers on to the St Enodoc lever frame, using Kwik Grip (which is the upside-down version of Evo-Stik). That went well enough, once I'd worked out why my little height jig seemed to have got taller in the three years since I fitted the numbers at Porthmellyn Road. Of course, it hadn't - but the St Enodoc levers are about 3mm shorter than the earlier ones! I therefore trimmed the jig accordingly and fixed the numbers in place. Next weekend, once the glue is completely dry, I'll trim away the excess glue that is visible round the edges of the plates and take a photo.

 

The second job was the mock-up of the FCFSTB system. I prepared four green and four yellow LEDs with 470 ohm resistors, two 3-way rotary switches and a short length of 9-way cable, to simulate two signal boxes.

 

This is how it should work in the case of St Enodoc to Pentowan (actually Treloggan Junction but, as you will recall, TL and PT signal boxes will share a combined lever frame at Pentowan).

 

Normally, both switches will be in the centre "Blocked" position and no LEDs are lit. Let's assume that the St Enodoc signalman wants to send a train to Pentowan. He moves his switch to the "To" position, upon which his yellow "To" LED and Pentowan's yellow "From" LED light up. If the Pentowan signalman can accept the train, he moves his switch to the "From" position, the yellow LEDs go out, the green "From" LED at Pentowan lights up and the Line Clear Relay for St Enodoc 3 signal picks up (for the trial I'm using another green LED to simulate the LCR).

 

Once the train is in the section St Enodoc returns his switch to "Blocked" and when it clears the section Pentowan also returns his switch to "Blocked", at which point all the LEDs have gone out and the LCR has dropped out.

 

The exact converse applies to send a train from Pentowan to St Enodoc.

 

Once I've set it all up and made sure that it works I'll take some photos to show the sequence, including what happens if both signalmen try to send a train at the same time (all LEDs should be out...).

 

[Penlowry]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Two jobs today, each started but not finished yet.

 

The second job was the mock-up of the FCFSTB system. I prepared four green and four yellow LEDs with 470 ohm resistors, two 3-way rotary switches and a short length of 9-way cable, to simulate two signal boxes...

 

 

 

That's really interesting. Here was my sketch circuit to build something similar for my friends' Tanybwlch and Penrhyn. Had this all drawn up and a weekend chosen to go and make it and some adjustments to the layouts in March 2020... I'm sure we'll get round to it one day! 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Penlowry said:

That's really interesting. Here was my sketch circuit to build something similar for my friends' Tanybwlch and Penrhyn. Had this all drawn up and a weekend chosen to go and make it and some adjustments to the layouts in March 2020... I'm sure we'll get round to it one day! 

Looks interesting, Chris. No bells on mine and no latching relays as I don't actually bother with simulating the token. Once I've finalised the circuit I'll post it here.

[5BarVT]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

No bells on mine and no latching relays as I don't actually bother with simulating the token.

Known as Tokenless Block in the big world!

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Known as Tokenless Block in the big world!

Paul.

And in the world of Mid-Cornwall too - the clue is in the name (First-Come-First-Served Tokenless Block)!

[5BarVT]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

First-Come-First-Served Tokenless Block

Funnily enough whilst travelling to modelling Saturday 9 days ago (U.K.) we were discussing TB and whether it could operate on a FCFS basis.  ScR tokenless simulates token circuits so is definitely co-operative at the point of giving the release.  Not sure about BRB tokenless but thought that it probably matched WR functionality.  WR tokenless was specifically designed to permit a train to be offered and accepted without the signalman  at the far end being present at the time of offering.  We wondered if both ends could be left in accept ready for either one to offer.

Having found some ‘old’ circuits (1980, reflecting what was done on Exeter Salisbury years earlier) the answer is yes you can!  To offer a train your accept switch must be at Normal and the other end at Accept, so if both were turned to accept after the previous train you had to turn yours back to normal and then plunge to offer.

Now that has led to further thoughts: on West Cornwall you won’t be wanting the full functionality of proving trains arrived or automatic Train in Section that comes with full blown tokenless but will you have something to prevent repeated trains without getting a second acceptance?  Or is it as simple as procedure - when the receiving signalman sees ‘from afar’ that the accepted train is on its way (or even just the starting signal I’d Off) he removes his acceptance (but that seems to remove the FCFS principle).

Yours, Confused of Wirral.

 

And I’ve just gone back and read your method of operation which explains it all clearly.  Not quite FCFS as it requires co-operation between the signalmen but sound perfect for model operations.

Paul.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by 5BarVT
Reading earlier post properly!

[5BarVT]

On 07/08/2022 at 09:11, St Enodoc said:

the St Enodoc levers are about 3mm shorter than the earlier ones!

3mm - 9” - just about what was chopped off the handle to signify electrically operated equipment.  You’re going to have to replace all your signals at St Enodoc . . .

:-)

(I’ll leave quietly now.)

Paul.

Edited August 8, 2022 by 5BarVT
Missing s

[Penlowry]

9 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

...  We wondered if both ends could be left in accept ready for either one to offer.

Having found some ‘old’ circuits (1980, reflecting what was done on Exeter Salisbury years earlier) the answer is yes you can!  To offer a train your accept switch must be at Normal and the other end at Accept, so if both were turned to accept after the previous train you had to turn yours back to normal and then plunge to offer.

....

you won’t be wanting the full functionality of proving trains arrived or automatic Train in Section that comes with full blown tokenless but will you have something to prevent repeated trains without getting a second acceptance? Or is it as simple as procedure - when the receiving signalman sees ‘from afar’ that the accepted train is on its way (or even just the starting signal I’d Off) he removes his acceptance (but that seems to remove the FCFS principle).

...

The Ffestiniog remote operator for ETS works where winding the release handle "offers" the train to all the other ETS machines for the section (end or mid-point), and if the auto-response is line clear (effectively is the sum of releases and returns an even number) then you get the release. This makes it first come first served - the only proviso is you are supposed to check with Control before you do it - the only time I didn't was when we had a fire at Boston Lodge Works and I took the token to protect the fire engines crossing the line and then told Control what I'd done while the phone went red hot as the PW manager wanted to know why he couldn't get a release!

 

WRT to repeated trains, if you don't want train detection, locking the starter to the release and then having a timer on the starter would do it. 

[Clive Mortimore]

58 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Funnily enough whilst travelling to modelling Saturday 9 days ago (U.K.) we were discussing TB and whether it could operate on a FCFS basis.  ScR tokenless simulates token circuits so is definitely co-operative at the point of giving the release.  Not sure about BRB tokenless but thought that it probably matched WR functionality.  WR tokenless was specifically designed to permit a train to be offered and accepted without the signalman  at the far end being present at the time of offering.  We wondered if both ends could be left in accept ready for either one to offer.

Having found some ‘old’ circuits (1980, reflecting what was done on Exeter Salisbury years earlier) the answer is yes you can!  To offer a train your accept switch must be at Normal and the other end at Accept, so if both were turned to accept after the previous train you had to turn yours back to normal and then plunge to offer.

Now that has led to further thoughts: on West Cornwall you won’t be wanting the full functionality of proving trains arrived or automatic Train in Section that comes with full blown tokenless but will you have something to prevent repeated trains without getting a second acceptance?  Or is it as simple as procedure - when the receiving signalman sees ‘from afar’ that the accepted train is on its way (or even just the starting signal I’d Off) he removes his acceptance (but that seems to remove the FCFS principle).

Yours, Confused of Wirral.

 

And I’ve just gone back and read your method of operation which explains it all clearly.  Not quite FCFS as it requires co-operation between the signalmen but sound perfect for model operations.

Paul.

 

All sounds very complicated when you can look across the room and see if the line is clear and if need be shout to the other signalman.

 

For all who love signalling

 

 

And

 

[5BarVT]

Hope you noticed the second one started with lots of lovely Bandit Country and a proper signal works.  Then it moved off elsewhere.  Some famous faces if you know!

Paul.

[Kelly]

Damnit. Posted in wrong thread!

Edited August 8, 2022 by Kelly

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Hope you noticed the second one started with lots of lovely Bandit Country and a proper signal works.  Then it moved off elsewhere.  Some famous faces if you know!

Paul.

I was a bit confused by the opening of the second one.

[DougN]

On 06/08/2022 at 07:01, Coach bogie said:

Did well, myself at a local Brisbane Trains sale, last weekend. I was told I was the only one interested. Maybe because there were bits missing from most. Why do people do that? Just need my tools to arrive to start building them.

 

Mike Wiltshire

I find it interesting how often things come up here in Australia. I have picked up some highly sort after things for very little. Then again, dealing as I have been with an estate, people do put alot of things aside for later.  It is just a question of time before sort after items turn up. 

 

I must dig out the blacksmith kit I started years ago... being a GWR 4 wheeled paper van, I think, how it got into my interest I really cant remember!... 

 

Any how to all RMweb members, dont forget that the AMRA exhibition is comming up in Melbourne on the weekend of 20th/21st August. 

 

John will I see you that weekend? 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

16 minutes ago, DougN said:

John will I see you that weekend? 

Not this year, Doug. See you in Adelaide next month instead!

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Funnily enough whilst travelling to modelling Saturday 9 days ago (U.K.) we were discussing TB and whether it could operate on a FCFS basis.  ScR tokenless simulates token circuits so is definitely co-operative at the point of giving the release.  Not sure about BRB tokenless but thought that it probably matched WR functionality.  WR tokenless was specifically designed to permit a train to be offered and accepted without the signalman  at the far end being present at the time of offering.  We wondered if both ends could be left in accept ready for either one to offer.

Having found some ‘old’ circuits (1980, reflecting what was done on Exeter Salisbury years earlier) the answer is yes you can!  To offer a train your accept switch must be at Normal and the other end at Accept, so if both were turned to accept after the previous train you had to turn yours back to normal and then plunge to offer.

Now that has led to further thoughts: on West Cornwall you won’t be wanting the full functionality of proving trains arrived or automatic Train in Section that comes with full blown tokenless but will you have something to prevent repeated trains without getting a second acceptance?  Or is it as simple as procedure - when the receiving signalman sees ‘from afar’ that the accepted train is on its way (or even just the starting signal I’d Off) he removes his acceptance (but that seems to remove the FCFS principle).

Yours, Confused of Wirral.

 

And I’ve just gone back and read your method of operation which explains it all clearly.  Not quite FCFS as it requires co-operation between the signalmen but sound perfect for model operations.

Paul.

 

I found some information on the WR Tokenless Block system on the web, which was interesting but more complicated than I need.

 

The FCFSTB system is really an aid to discourage having two trains on the single line, either in the same or opposite directions, at the same time. The signalmen concerned are within a few feet of each other so can indeed see what's going on but you're right, the "second train" situation is prevented procedurally. The rule will be that you can't offer another train unless all the LEDs associated with the previous one are out.

 

It's FCFS in the sense that whoever offers a train first has the right to the section. Nothing more, nothing less!

 

"No signalman" working - your friend Charles developed (invented?) that for the Bluebell, so that mid-week with a one-train service you didn't need a signalman at Horsted Keynes. The Sheffield Park bobby could withdraw a staff by pressing a foot switch that proved that the circuit was complete.

[St Enodoc]

On 09/08/2022 at 05:09, 5BarVT said:

3mm - 9” - just about what was chopped off the handle to signify electrically operated equipment.  You’re going to have to replace all your signals at St Enodoc . . .

:-)

(I’ll leave quietly now.)

Paul.

Yes but no but yes but...

 

The missing 3mm is on the main shaft not the handle!

 

Anyway, the signals are all electrically operated...

Edited August 10, 2022 by St Enodoc
added emphasis