Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[Brinkly]

15 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

After a brief interlude when one of the operating team was so keen to join in the running session that he turned up a week early, I finished the mechanical work on the lever frame today. This involved removing all the interlocking, wiping off any residual dust/filings and giving each part, as I reassembled it, a light spray of dry PTFE lubricant.

 

You can see that I did, after all, remove the paper from the acrylic sheet, because I wasn't sure how it would behave if the lubricant got to it. Having removed the lower sheet there didn't seem to be any point keeping the upper one, so here's the complete frame, complete mechanically, in Modratec orientation as built...

 

...while flipping it through 180 degrees lets us see it in layout orientation.

 

Next, I took the frame over to the layout and tried it in position. This is the final position laterally but I won't fix the final fore-and-aft position until I've fitted the electrics, specifically the two Eemecks that sit at the rear of the frame as we see it here. I'll then push the frame back as far as I can without them fouling the L-girders.

 

This is the signalman's-eye view. The frame will sit slightly lower than that at Porthmellyn Road but there will still be plenty of room for the signalman's knees.

 

Now, yesterday I said that I'd continue the discussion with Paul @5BarVT about the locking errors off line but, as I know that others here are interested in this sort of thing, I changed my mind.

 

The errant lever appears to be 24 (Modratec numbering). Levers 7 and 24 should lock each other but don't - 7 can be reversed when 24 is normal, which is wrong. Likewise, levers 19 and 24 don't lock each other either - 19 can be reversed when 24 and 21 are both reversed. Additionally, when 25 is reversed it doesn't lock 22 normal when 24 is reversed and 21 normal.

 

It's all too hard for me to work out, I'm afraid, and anyway it's too late to change anything, so I'll live with it. Once I've done the pulling lists nobody should need to worry about it in any case.

 

Tomorrow I might start the electrics - making up the switch units that are activated by the bottom ends of the levers - or I might just tidy up the railway room ready for next week and play trains for a while.

Stunning! I’ve been slowly catching up with threads and the frame on yours is amazing. 
 

Memories of a recent look inside Par signal box on a work visit have come flooding back! 
 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[St Enodoc]

Thanks Nick! Glad you're catching up and thanks for all the "likes" over the last day or two.

[Brinkly]

9 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Nick! Glad you're catching up and thanks for all the "likes" over the last day or two.

My pleasure! I still don’t think I’ve fully caught up but I will continue to look through. Very inspiring stuff. 
 

Nick.

[Martin S-C]

43 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Once I've done the pulling lists nobody should need to worry about it in any case.

To expose more of my ignorance I presume a pulling list is the list of levers that need to be reversed BEFORE the signal protecting that route can be. Is that right?

[St Enodoc]

40 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

To expose more of my ignorance I presume a pulling list is the list of levers that need to be reversed BEFORE the signal protecting that route can be. Is that right?

Pretty much, Martin. It's the list of levers that have to be pulled, in order, to set a particular route. Here's the St Enodoc one (provisional - subject to testing!):

 

SE signal box pulling list v1.docx

[Regularity]

Re “pulling lists”, iirc, I have seen photos of some frames where the levers had these listed on the number plates, but not all.

Was this specific to certain companies?

[aardvark]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Pretty much, Martin. It's the list of levers that have to be pulled, in order, to set a particular route. Here's the St Enodoc one (provisional - subject to testing!):

 

SE signal box pulling list v1.docx 18.96 kB · 4 downloads

 

I'm ignorant too: what's the difference between red and black pulls?

 

[St Enodoc]

34 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Re “pulling lists”, iirc, I have seen photos of some frames where the levers had these listed on the number plates, but not all.

Was this specific to certain companies?

On the Western, at least, these are "lever leads", which are not quite the same thing (in fact the inverse, in a sense). They show which levers have to be pulled in order to release that lever, as distinct from the pulling list that shows which levers have to be pulled to set a route.

Edited July 9, 2022 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, aardvark said:

 

I'm ignorant too: what's the difference between red and black pulls?

 

Black are points (and FPLs - I didn't bother showing those in blue), red are signals.

[The Stationmaster]

40 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Re “pulling lists”, iirc, I have seen photos of some frames where the levers had these listed on the number plates, but not all.

Was this specific to certain companies?

The list you see on some signal levers below the lever number are called 'leads'.  In other words they are levers which lead that particular lever and have to be pulled before it in order to release the interlocking on that lever or, where conditional locking is involved, to create a route which that lever will secure (through the interlocking) when it is pulled.   In some cases the list might appear on a board behind the lever frame and in some cases they appeared as a painted list down the side of a lever 

 

The name given to these plates varied between Companies and BR Regions - on the GWR/WR they were/are called leads or lever leads.   They are not the same as a pull list which effectively is a list of levers which have to be pulled, and in what order, for a particular movement.  In other words they are for an intended movement rather than interlocking based although they would still of course be governed by the interlocking.  Pull lists tended to be used only where frames were operated by people other than the/a regular Signalman - e.g. possibly worked bya. member of traincrew or station staff.

 

There are various different ways of learning a lever frame and to some extent they depend on your starting knowledge and the way your brain works.  For example some Relief Signamen who worked different 'boxes kept a notebook which among other things might include a pull list for all the regular moves at that box.  Others, especially those with any knowledge of interlocking, would learn a 'box off the diagram plus what they could see out on the ground and where additionally needed the leads (my method of learning a frame as it happens).  The other method was simply to learn the leads but, again, you needed a basic understanding of signalling to be able to learn a frame by that method.  But in all cases the Signalman would need to know the distance from the signal box to all the runn ing line stop signals it controlled in order to correctly apply the Block Regulations (which also had to be learnt - along with the Special Instructions for that particular signal box). 

 

Hence the job of Signalman required someone with intelligence and teh ability to think clearly.

Edited July 9, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Hence the job of Signalman required someone with intelligence and teh ability to think clearly.

Hi Mike

 

Fear not. Application form screwed up and now laying next to the bin as I missed the bin when throwing the crumpled bit of paper.

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Hence the job of Signalman required someone with intelligence and teh ability to think clearly.

Thanks, Mike.

We know what the (G)WR called these, anyone know about other companies which may have done this?

 

The other thing a signaller needs is good colour vision, of course. Most people know if they don’t have this, but 20½  years ago I found out when interviewing for a position that that my colour vision wasn’t up to scratch!

[5BarVT]

37 minutes ago, Regularity said:

We know what the (G)WR called these, anyone know about other companies which may have done this?

I’ve also heard them called Pull Plates (LMR I think).

Paul.

[5BarVT]

Back to St.Enodoc frame: here are your first Sunday Morning questions!

Initial thoughts are that it isn’t a single issue.

Your first one 7 free (not released by 24): is 20 released by 24 or is it also free?  With 7R is 24 free to move?  Is 7 tight when 24N, is 24 tight when (if) it moves with 7R?

Paul.

 

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Application form screwed up and now laying next to the bin as I missed the bin when throwing the crumpled bit of paper.

How close did it get? You may still be in with a chance.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Mike

 

Fear not. Application form screwed up and now laying next to the bin as I missed the bin when throwing the crumpled bit of paper.

Clive I actually reckon that your background would be just right.  I took on an ex squaddie and we trained him (and other chaps we recruited at the same time) up from scratch and they made excellent Signalmen. Chris . the ex-squaddie spent the rest of his working life as a Signalman(/'ler' in trackie speak) in that area.

 

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Thanks, Mike.

We know what the (G)WR called these, anyone know about other companies which may have done this?

 

The other thing a signaller needs is good colour vision, of course. Most people know if they don’t have this, but 20½  years ago I found out when interviewing for a position that that my colour vision wasn’t up to scratch!

In one part of the country  they were called 'labels' or 'lever labels'-  probably(?)  because it said on them what they worked.  And of course virtually all railway operating jobs needed good colour vision although oddly in some postss it wasn't tested until the age 50 medical exam.

[5BarVT]

Next Sunday Morning question: can you check locking bar A is the correct way round.  On July 2 you have a photo with the pins at 21-25 but on ‘yesterday’s’ photo with everything reassembled they seem to be at 5 7 9.

Paul.

And if you do have to open it up, could you take a photo of all the locking bars in place without the upper tappets covering them.

(I haven’t asked for a photo of just the lower tappets ‘cos that means taking all the locking bars off and would be a pita.)

Edited July 9, 2022 by 5BarVT

[St Enodoc]

Today's first task was to attempt to answer @5BarVT Paul's exam questions:

 

10 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

can you check locking bar A is the correct way round.

Well spotted! Not a deliberate mistake, I can assure you. I wonder why everything seemed to work though?

 

10 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

could you take a photo of all the locking bars in place without the upper tappets covering them.

As I had to remove the upper tappets to deal with locking bar A, you're in luck:

 

 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

7 free (not released by 24): is 20 released by 24 or is it also free?

Free, as long as 21 is reversed.

 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

With 7R is 24 free to move?

Yes.

 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Is 7 tight when 24N?

No.

 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

is 24 tight when (if) it moves with 7R?

24 moves freely.

 

Phew, I hate exams.

 

The final piece of work on the lever frame was to check the pulling list, where I found a typo, which I've now corrected:

 

SE signal box pulling list v2.docx

After all that I cleaned up the workshop and railway room then decided to deal with a couple of matters arising at Porthmellyn Road.

 

We'd found that the Eemecks that give the Line Clear releases on 6, 9 and 49 signals (the three section signals) were taking too long to release the levers, so I adjusted the pistons so that they only just catch the tappets when not energised. Now the signalman only has to wait about two or three seconds after pressing the button before he can pull the lever.

 

As others have mentioned and as you can see in some previous photos, 53 signal (Up Main Home) needed adjusting, as the arm was pointing slightly upwards when On and therefore not giving a clear indication when Off. It's better now, but I might give it a bit more droop when On so that when it's Off it's absolutely obvious.

 

Finally I ran the long china-clay train to and from St Dennis Junction, then ran the short china-clay from Wheal Veronica to St Blazey and back. Everything is (should be) ready now for Saturday's running session...

[5BarVT]

Glad locking bar A has been sorted, I know it won’t have been deliberate.

 

Bit stumped on 7 (and 20) not locked by 24.  I wondered if it was slightly slack locking but that should have given a bit of tightness.  It’s not missing locking as I can see the pins Up for 7 and down for 20 and 24.  My focus is now on 24 given that both 7 and 21 are irregularly free.

Can you get at the locking bar with the Perspex top on?  If so, with 7 20 and 24N push it to the right and see how far it moves.  (Note whether the pin on 7 is clear of the tappet edge or not.). Then reverse 24 and see how much further the locking bar moves.

The Engineer will then review the findings!  :-)

And if you’ve nothing better to do can you advise what’s been fixed by correcting locking bar A and what still seems to be wrong.

 

Paul.

 

[5BarVT]

And by the time we’ve finished this I’ll be needing to change my user name to 2BarHT.

:-)

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Glad locking bar A has been sorted, I know it won’t have been deliberate.

 

Bit stumped on 7 (and 20) not locked by 24.  I wondered if it was slightly slack locking but that should have given a bit of tightness.  It’s not missing locking as I can see the pins Up for 7 and down for 20 and 24.  My focus is now on 24 given that both 7 and 21 are irregularly free.

Can you get at the locking bar with the Perspex top on?  If so, with 7 20 and 24N push it to the right and see how far it moves.  (Note whether the pin on 7 is clear of the tappet edge or not.). Then reverse 24 and see how much further the locking bar moves.

The Engineer will then review the findings!  :-)

And if you’ve nothing better to do can you advise what’s been fixed by correcting locking bar A and what still seems to be wrong.

 

Paul.

 

Thanks Paul. I'll try all that at the weekend. Regarding locking bar A, I couldn't see any difference with my rather informal and haphazard testing!

[Nick C]

On 09/07/2022 at 15:00, Regularity said:

Thanks, Mike.

We know what the (G)WR called these, anyone know about other companies which may have done this?

 

The other thing a signaller needs is good colour vision, of course. Most people know if they don’t have this, but 20½  years ago I found out when interviewing for a position that that my colour vision wasn’t up to scratch!

Not sure what the official name for them was, but here's some (replica, I think) LSWR ones in Alresford 'box. 

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Not sure what the official name for them was, but here's some (replica, I think) LSWR ones in Alresford 'box. 

You can see where the term “Pull Plate” might come from with these.

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

You can see where the term “Pull Plate” might come from with these.

Paul.

However on an LSWR frame they presumably also had push plates or, more accurately push or pull plates.

[5BarVT]

13 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Paul. I'll try all that at the weekend. Regarding locking bar A, I couldn't see any difference with my rather informal and haphazard testing!

If Sharky is there at the weekend he could give the frame a ‘good going over’!

Paul.