Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[5BarVT]

More homework for the resident signalman (or his relief).

19 free w. 21R 24R: with 21R and 24R how far does the pin on locking bar E go into tappet 19 and is it touching on the corners (i.e. tight going in). Can you push bar E to the left (i.e. is the slot too tight for the spring)?  When 19 is moved, is it the corner of the square slot that pushes the pin out against the spring on bar E?  When 21 and 24 are normalised in turn how far does the pin move out of 19?

The second part of the homework to do similar for locking bar C.  Fortunately you can see the top of the pin and I’m going to assume that the edges of tappets 23 and 24 are in line.  This bar does the converse of the locking on bar E and I’m hoping that it works fine.

So, 21R then 19R: is 24 locked N and has the pin on bar C fully disappeared under tappet 23?  If yes, give yourself a Pat on the back and ignore further questions.

Then, if no, does moving 24 push the pin in bar C further to the right?  How far do levers 19 and 21 push the pin when normalised in turn?  How do these distances compare?  With 21R and 19R can you push bar C to the left so as the pin disappears (i.e. is it too tight going into 24 for the spring to do its work)?

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However on an LSWR frame they presumably also had push plates or, more accurately push or pull plates.

On the LSWR wouldn't they have been pull or push rather than push or pull?????

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

If Sharky is there at the weekend he could give the frame a ‘good going over’!

Paul.

Regrettably, he won't be!

[Clive Mortimore]

19 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

More homework for the resident signalman (or his relief).

19 free w. 21R 24R: with 21R and 24R how far does the pin on locking bar E go into tappet 19 and is it touching on the corners (i.e. tight going in). Can you push bar E to the left (i.e. is the slot too tight for the spring)?  When 19 is moved, is it the corner of the square slot that pushes the pin out against the spring on bar E?  When 21 and 24 are normalised in turn how far does the pin move out of 19?

The second part of the homework to do similar for locking bar C.  Fortunately you can see the top of the pin and I’m going to assume that the edges of tappets 23 and 24 are in line.  This bar does the converse of the locking on bar E and I’m hoping that it works fine.

So, 21R then 19R: is 24 locked N and has the pin on bar C fully disappeared under tappet 23?  If yes, give yourself a Pat on the back and ignore further questions.

Then, if no, does moving 24 push the pin in bar C further to the right?  How far do levers 19 and 21 push the pin when normalised in turn?  How do these distances compare?  With 21R and 19R can you push bar C to the left so as the pin disappears (i.e. is it too tight going into 24 for the spring to do its work)?

Paul.

Hi Paul and Sainty

 

Having tried to follow what you're on about I found this interesting video on mechanical signaling , it seems to make as much sense. 🥴

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

Glad to see some in Australia have their priorities sorted.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

On the LSWR wouldn't they have been pull or push rather than push or pull?????

Clever but maybe the signalling contractors didn't didn't think of them in the way the South Western/Southern thought of trains?😇

 

It can't really have come down to the predominant direction of movement because there'd be little difference there.     Judging from a very few examples I can quickly find it seems to have been 'Push' for the signal reading from a running line towards the siding(s) and 'Pull' for the signal reading out from the sidings(s) out onto the running line - which sounds logical.  But which way round it was on the lever I don't know.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Paul and Sainty

 

Having tried to follow what you're on about I found this interesting video on mechanical signaling , it seems to make as much sense. 🥴

 

Here you go Clive - a nice drawing to help you out and show what is being talked about.  The tappets are the vertical thingies and the locking bars are the one lying horizntal.    What is even more useful for you is that levers 28-33 are the sort that Polish bloke is playing with explaining although the exact locking will be different (because this is a GWR locking dog chart so it's GWR locking principles).

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Here you go Clive - a nice drawing to help you out and show what is being talked about.  The tappets are the vertical thingies and the locking bars are the one lying horizntal.    What is even more useful for you is that levers 28-33 are the sort that Polish bloke is playing with explaining although the exact locking will be different (because this is a GWR locking dog chart so it's GWR locking principles).

 

 

Hi Mike

 

I understand the basics of interlocking and its importance. Hats off to those modellers who like John build a working frame. I suppose with all railway modelling we all have our own ideals we feel important. I am content in having the aim of the right signals and for them to be working when the layout is finished. I would love to have them fully interlocked, colour lights and electric point machines, how many relays, wires and hours would that take me? Maybe a project once I have finished all the other not finish stuff associated with my train set.

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Paul and Sainty

 

Having tried to follow what you're on about I found this interesting video on mechanical signaling , it seems to make as much sense. 🥴

 

You will have noticed that that's a two-wire system...

[5BarVT]

Back to St.Enodoc frame (again)!

Upon further reflection, it’s time to stick my neck out.  However, they do say ‘pride comes before a fall’.

I think the first one is probably slack locking (too much filing), at a guess on 24 tappet.  The solution is to increase the size of the pin (a brass sleeve round the locking pin), on 24 to start, and if that isn’t enough, then on 7 and 20 too.

The other two on the sprung conditional bars I think is going to be tight locking (not enough filing).  See bar B tappets 21 and 25 - the pins look like they are going to catch on the top of the square (or square ended) slots.  (A way to check that is to ease both levers slightly away from N and see if that allows the lock to engage.). I’m assuming that bar C is similar.

Paul.

 

 

[ianathompson]

17 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Having tried to follow what you're on about I found this interesting video on mechanical signaling , it seems to make as much sense. 🥴

 

 

You might be surprised to find that the GWR did use these types of frames on their lines.

GWR Signalling Practice by David L Smith outlines the use of double wire systems and 180 degree lever frames on the GWR.

 

The Polish (I assume) video displays a standard German arrangement presumably reflecting influences in the area across the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

If you are prepared to translate technical German there are books out there that explain German locking systems.

From my limited experience, and despite my self taught German, I find the similarities and differences between German and Brisith systems quite interesting.

 

Just to make the point, at the risk of hi-jacking the thread, here is my cosmetic model of Relforka Lacono's frame.

 

 

I will spare you the technical details but if you want them they are here.

 

There are a couple of errors and omissions that I have subsequently become aware of, so the model awaits amendments.

I also contemplated making a working, locked model of such a frame before deciding that I had enough on my modelling plate!

 

Ian T

 

 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Back to St.Enodoc frame (again)!

Upon further reflection, it’s time to stick my neck out.  However, they do say ‘pride comes before a fall’.

I think the first one is probably slack locking (too much filing), at a guess on 24 tappet.  The solution is to increase the size of the pin (a brass sleeve round the locking pin), on 24 to start, and if that isn’t enough, then on 7 and 20 too.

The other two on the sprung conditional bars I think is going to be tight locking (not enough filing).  See bar B tappets 21 and 25 - the pins look like they are going to catch on the top of the square (or square ended) slots.  (A way to check that is to ease both levers slightly away from N and see if that allows the lock to engage.). I’m assuming that bar C is similar.

Paul.

 

 

Thanks Paul. Too much filing is quite likely and if that turns out to be the case I'll probably just live with it. Too little filing is more easily rectified.

 

I"ll follow this through at the weekend but at the end of the day I can set all the moves that I need to - just that some of the conflicting moves aren't  locked out. So be it.

[St Enodoc]

On 13/07/2022 at 02:11, The Stationmaster said:

Clever but maybe the signalling contractors didn't didn't think of them in the way the South Western/Southern thought of trains?😇

 

It can't really have come down to the predominant direction of movement because there'd be little difference there.     Judging from a very few examples I can quickly find it seems to have been 'Push' for the signal reading from a running line towards the siding(s) and 'Pull' for the signal reading out from the sidings(s) out onto the running line - which sounds logical.  But which way round it was on the lever I don't know.

The only one I know is at Sheffield Park:

 

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/sym/spark_sig_diag.html

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The only one I know is at Sheffield Park:

 

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/sym/spark_sig_diag.html

And that’s on the G.F. too.  Impressive: three discs worked off one lever!

(I’m sure there’s a mistake on the diagram - the station end of 3 should have a box round it too - but we know what is meant.)

I might see Charles on Wednesday, I’ll compliment him on his arrangements if I remember.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

And that’s on the G.F. too.  Impressive: three discs worked off one lever!

(I’m sure there’s a mistake on the diagram - the station end of 3 should have a box round it too - but we know what is meant.)

I might see Charles on Wednesday, I’ll compliment him on his arrangements if I remember.

Paul.

Please do - he is a giant in the heritage rail signalling world.

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

(I’m sure there’s a mistake on the diagram - the station end of 3 should have a box round it too - but we know what is meant.)

And, I think, the 2 at the left hand end of the loco yard exit crossover (or should the 2 actually be a 4)? As I understand it, station lever 4 and ground frame lever 2 have to be pulled to release ground frame levers 1 and 3.

 

The whole layout was different last time I worked SP signal box in 1974!

[5BarVT]

16 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

And, I think, the 2 at the left hand end of the loco yard exit crossover (or should the 2 actually be a 4)? As I understand it, station lever 4 and ground frame lever 2 have to be pulled to release ground frame levers 1 and 3.

 

The whole layout was different last time I worked SP signal box in 1974!

Yes 4 in the box is pulled to release 2 in the frame which then releases 1 and 3.  2 by the crossover is the box (slot) control on the disc (which I hadn’t noticed before) likewise 5 the disc to come in.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

On 11/07/2022 at 05:43, 5BarVT said:

with 7 20 and 24N push it to the right and see how far it moves.  (Note whether the pin on 7 is clear of the tappet edge or not.).

I wasn't sure which LB we were referring to here as there is no pin for tappet 7 in LB E, so I tried with LB G too. The answers are that LB E was already fully across to the right, with the spring compressed, so it didn't move any further, but LB G moved half a pin further to the right. All the pins were clear of the tappet edges after that.

 

On 11/07/2022 at 05:43, 5BarVT said:

Then reverse 24 and see how much further the locking bar moves.

No further movement on LB G.

 

On 12/07/2022 at 05:29, 5BarVT said:

19 free w. 21R 24R: with 21R and 24R how far does the pin on locking bar E go into tappet 19 and is it touching on the corners (i.e. tight going in).

More than half-way.

 

On 12/07/2022 at 05:29, 5BarVT said:

Can you push bar E to the left (i.e. is the slot too tight for the spring)?

Yes, a little, so there is obviously some friction, probably between adjacent bars. I'm not going to pull them all out to fix that!

 

On 12/07/2022 at 05:29, 5BarVT said:

When 19 is moved, is it the corner of the square slot that pushes the pin out against the spring on bar E?

No.

 

On 12/07/2022 at 05:29, 5BarVT said:

21R then 19R: is 24 locked N and has the pin on bar C fully disappeared under tappet 23?

24 not locked N and the pin has not disappeared.

 

On 12/07/2022 at 05:29, 5BarVT said:

does moving 24 push the pin in bar C further to the right?

Half a pin diameter to the right until 24 half way, then the same distance back to the left when 24 fully across.

 

On 12/07/2022 at 05:29, 5BarVT said:

How far do levers 19 and 21 push the pin when normalised in turn?  How do these distances compare?

19 - half a pin diameter, 21 - no movement.

 

On 12/07/2022 at 05:29, 5BarVT said:

With 21R and 19R can you push bar C to the left so as the pin disappears (i.e. is it too tight going into 24 for the spring to do its work)?

Yes, as for LB E above.

 

I'm all "examed-out" now and clearly I'm not going to make a locking fitter (or any other sort of fitter), so I'm definitely going to leave it at that. All the moves on the pulling list work, so unless some smart-ar$e signalman, senior operating manager or S&T Engineer (retired or otherwise) comes along and tries to beat the locking all will be well.

 

I truly and genuinely appreciate your efforts, Paul, and I'm sure it's been fun for you working it all through, but I think we've now reached the point where further improvement is going to demand a disproportionate amount of effort and there is of course always the risk that I will make things worse!

 

So with my sincere thanks, I'm going to draw the line there and, after tomorrow's running session, start on the electrical side of the frame.

 

I promise to take more care with Pentowan though...

 

Thanks again!

[Nick C]

On 12/07/2022 at 17:11, The Stationmaster said:

Clever but maybe the signalling contractors didn't didn't think of them in the way the South Western/Southern thought of trains?😇

 

It can't really have come down to the predominant direction of movement because there'd be little difference there.     Judging from a very few examples I can quickly find it seems to have been 'Push' for the signal reading from a running line towards the siding(s) and 'Pull' for the signal reading out from the sidings(s) out onto the running line - which sounds logical.  But which way round it was on the lever I don't know.

 

21 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The only one I know is at Sheffield Park:

 

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/sym/spark_sig_diag.html

Also Alresford:

 

Looking at the diagram on the SRS site, 5push is in 5pull's original location, 5push was located at the toe of 8B. 12 and 14 were originally push-pull levers as well, with 12 push reading into the good yard, and pull from it, and 14 stood where 16 is now, with pull being the up starter, and push the shunt-ahead.

[St Enodoc]

Today's running session went very well.

 

A couple of late call-offs saw ten of us in the railway room, so with Charles concentrating on his video equipment I doubled up as Porthmellyn Road signalman and Fat Controller. That wasn't too hard, as it turned out, since the team members now have enough experience to follow the sequence without any real difficulty.

 

We only got through 19 trains, because there was a lot of stopping and starting (and reversing - largely without mishap) while Charles took different takes from different angles. The final result will show a selection of main line trains, levers being moved back and forth, signals waggling up and down and of course a couple of sequences featuring the long and short china-clay trains on the branch. When Charles has sent me the rushes, I'll write some captions then Charles will do the final edit and post the result on his YouTube channel, to which I'll post the link here.

 

Over the next few working sessions, I'll make up the lever switch modules, fit them to St Enodoc lever frame, fit the Eemecks to the two section signal tappets, then mount the frame on the layout ready to connect it all up.

 

 

[ian]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

post the result on his YouTube channel, to which I'll post the link here.

 

A treat in store - looking forward to it.

[St Enodoc]

Today I stopped pretending to be a locking fitter and pretended to be an electrician instead.

 

The points and signals, being electrically-powered, are controlled by switches activated by the lever tails. The auxiliary switch units (ASUs) carry six switches corresponding to each lever bay along the frame. Signals need one switch per lever, points need two (normal and reverse) while FPLs, being dummies, don't need any switches at all.

 

I started by attaching the small resistors that act as links between the different parts of the ASU, the polyswitch that protects the switches themselves against overloads and the terminals that connect the ASUs to the power supply, points and signals themselves.

 

Here is one of the ASUs that's reached this stage. It's upside down in this view.

 

Next is to fit the switches to the ASUs, in their correct positions, to the other side of the ASUs, after which they can be attached to the support bar that holds them in place below the levers.

[Graham T]

4 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Here is one of the ASUs that's reached this stage. It's upside down in this view.

 

Appropriate for your location, I suppose 🥸

[St Enodoc]

In separate correspondence with Harold at Modratec I've mentioned the locking problem. He's going to check from his perspective. It will be interesting to see what he thinks.

[5BarVT]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

In separate correspondence with Harold at Modratec I've mentioned the locking problem. He's going to check from his perspective. It will be interesting to see what he thinks.

Especially for me!!!