Heljan class 17

[paulbb]

Thats a really terrific image as most cameras were pointing at steam along this stretch of line back in '68. Anyone got any pictures of a class 17 actually banking though??

Did they last long.....

[jonhall]

Sorry to drag an old topic back from the dead, but yesterday I bought a pair of clayton chassis from a new outfit called Invicta trains (who seem to be ex-signalbox staff) for £10 each - it seems that even if the motor wasn't up to much, at least I'd have a couple of 8'6" cardan shaft bogies for something. Whats the current thinking on the problems? Reading back through this thread it sounds like there are multiple niggles that combine into spectacular failures.

 

Thanks

 

jon

[250BOB]

Sorry to drag an old topic back from the dead, but yesterday I bought a pair of clayton chassis from a new outfit called Invicta trains (who seem to be ex-signalbox staff) for £10 each - it seems that even if the motor wasn't up to much, at least I'd have a couple of 8'6" cardan shaft bogies for something. Whats the current thinking on the problems? Reading back through this thread it sounds like there are multiple niggles that combine into spectacular failures.

 

Thanks

 

jon

Hi Jon,

Eversince I fitted the mashima motor it has run perfectly.....see earlier in this thread for the details.

 

I was no expert at doing the task...but it was quite straight forward.

 

Not a fan of the original motors....I burnt out 2.

 

Bob

[jonhall]

I did a bit of investigating yesterday, before a power cut made testing my 'improvements' out impossible, my conclusions:

 

1. The original motor is rough (is it 3 pole?) lots of vibration and not as good in one direction as the other, I did leave it running without load to see if it improved, but I'm not sure I reached a conclusion.

2. The rubber lining of the motor mount must make heat dispersal a bit tricky, so I trimmed some of it off to improve ventilation.

3. The gear towers seem to have two different greases in use, a thinner white one over the plastic gears, and a thicker, yellower grease over the worm. I cleaned all of both types off.

 

My testing had only just started when the power went off, but one bogie seemed within the motors capability and it seemed to turn OK without tight spots from the gear train, so I suspect it is the motor at fault.

 

As I only really need the bogies, I think that's a bit of a result for £10.

 

Jon

[John Tomlinson]

I'm not sure if I should re-open this thread or start a new one, but I did find reading the above very helpful, so here goes!

 

Back in October 2010  I bought the Ribble Cement version, code 17061, from the late lamented Signal Box of Rochester for £49.99. More for novelty than anything else, the purchase was a Show offer and on test it ran, but slowly and noisily, as if it was straining quite badly. I did a little research, but not much else, then yesterday decided to open it up to see if it could be improved.

 

Dismantling isn't simple as the wires don't unclip, and in the past I've come to discover that unsoldering from a PCB isn't entirely risk free, so wished to avoid that route. Eventually the gear towers were separated from everything else by carefully lifting off the pick up strips to the wheels. Taking the towers to bits it was clear that the white grease, akin to glue, was A Very Bad Thing, and so it was removed by wiping and a final clean using Slaters Track and Mechanism fluid on a cotton bud. Looking at the bearings to the worm, these did have flats, but the flats didn't seem to grip particularly in the gear tower mouldings, which made me doubt if on this version mis-seating of the bearings was causing a problem. Anyhow, everything was cleaned out of the dreaded goo, and re-oiled with Labelle 108, including the little spigots on which the gear wheels sit, the worm bearings, and the ends of the motor - that furthest from the wires has a phosphor bronze bearing. This all brought back memories of a Lima service, and after re-assembly and rotation of all parts by hand a few times any excess oil was carefully removed by wiping with tissue paper.

 

As Manfred noted in his very useful piece referenced above, it isn't possible to see where the bearing flats seat as you snap the gear towers back together - they could move, and its a real faff anyway because of positioning the circular plastic retaining ring at the same time. I did what I could, even though I'm not convined that mis-seating actually makes much difference as already mentioned. With the universal drives in place I turned the motor flywheel to see how freely the wheels turned - it felt fine and I reasoned that was a good a check as I could make.

 

The motor sits in a cradle with two rubber pads around it - not only must these be seated properly, but I discovered that tightening up the screws on the cradle had a very adverse effect both on the speed and noise of the motor - the screws need to be tight enough to hold the motor but no more. There is a cast lug in the chassis casting that helps to stop the motor from rotating, and  I reasoned that metal on metal was potentially a source of noise, so wrapped a small piece of masking tape around the lug to help.

 

With re-assembly complete, I ran the loco on my roundy layout. It is now a lot faster, maximum speed around that of a Bachmann 25 I would say which is quite appropriate, and slow speed running is excellent. Noise levels are much less, although still higher than on my other Heljan locos of various classes - I do tend to regard these as the best of all RTR mechanisms. Quite possibly replacement with a Mashima would give further improvement, but I am quite happy with the loco as she now is.

 

In conclusion, dealing with the white grease is essential here, and then carefully re-oiling all parts. I think the motor seating in its cradle is also important, for both noise and performance. I'm not convinced that positioning of the worm bearing flats did have any impact on my version, although it can't harm to try to get them where they look as if they should be. The design of the loco with the restriction of the bonnets means everything is inevitably more compact, and I suspect this tends to render the whole thing more of a sounding box and so more noisy. I built a Dave Alexander Clayton years ago, which I consider to be a top flight white metal kit. Fitted with two powered motor bogies and all wheel pick-up it is in regular use on my layout, but I have to say that despite a lot of effort I haven't matched the quality of finish on the Heljan item. So good on the Danes for doing this and the other Type1's that for years we never dreamt would appear in RTR!

 

John.

Edited August 6, 2014 by John Tomlinson

[250BOB]

Hi John,

My Clayton expired in a cloud of very acrid smoke a few years ago....motor burnt out.

 

replaced with a Mashima.....ran perfectly eversince.......as you say.....its a lovely little model of the prototype, and the Danes need commending for providing it for us.

 

The prototypes were built in a village called Hatton near Derby....only 10 miles from where I live in Uttoxeter.....hence I have a bit of a soft spot for them.

 

During the past 12 months or so, the Clayton factory was finally demolished.

 

Bob

[MJI]

My Ebay special hardly moves so that is in line for a rebuild

[250BOB]

Hi Martin,

Its a nice little project replacing the motor........not quite a drop in fit, but with a bit of ingenuity it works ok. 

 

Bob

[John Tomlinson]

Hi John,

My Clayton expired in a cloud of very acrid smoke a few years ago....motor burnt out.

 

replaced with a Mashima.....ran perfectly eversince.......as you say.....its a lovely little model of the prototype, and the Danes need commending for providing it for us.

 

The prototypes were built in a village called Hatton near Derby....only 10 miles from where I live in Uttoxeter.....hence I have a bit of a soft spot for them.

 

During the past 12 months or so, the Clayton factory was finally demolished.

 

Bob

Hi Bob,

 

             I've driven through Hatton a few times in the last year or so, and wondered if it was the home of Clayton - thanks for the confirmation. As I'm sure you know, the locos carried quite a prominent plate on their cabsides advertising Clayton Equipment of Hatton - I have one kindly given to me over 40 years ago by the Polmadie shed foreman when they were awaiting scrap!

 

John.

[250BOB]

Hi Bob,

 

             I've driven through Hatton a few times in the last year or so, and wondered if it was the home of Clayton - thanks for the confirmation. As I'm sure you know, the locos carried quite a prominent plate on their cabsides advertising Clayton Equipment of Hatton - I have one kindly given to me over 40 years ago by the Polmadie shed foreman when they were awaiting scrap!

 

John.

 

Hi John,

Have a look at this thread I started a couple of years ago......I passed it in my car regularly, and thought I would take a few pics before it went.

 

In the sixties, I used to pass by on the train, when off on a spotting trip somewhere.  There were usually one or two locos parked up outside as we went past.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53439-what-were-made-here/

 

Bob.

[John Tomlinson]

Bob, thanks for this. Thinking backwards, I guess this explains why the few pictures that exist of the unique larger Clayton were taken on test around Wigginton, not far away.

 

John.

[250BOB]

Bob, thanks for this. Thinking backwards, I guess this explains why the few pictures that exist of the unique larger Clayton were taken on test around Wigginton, not far away.

 

John.

 

John......

 

Wigginton...???    Do you mean Eggington, which is close by.

[John Tomlinson]

Quite right, I think Wigginton is just north of Tamworth - whoops!

 

John.

[250BOB]

Quite right, I think Wigginton is just north of Tamworth - whoops!

 

John.

 

Eggington Jnc was where the line went off to Derby Friargate, then that line latterly used as a test track.

[Ian Hargrave]

Talking of the testing of the Claytons ,I have logged seeing a pair...D8557/8 coupled together light engine passing through Matlock station in the Derby direction in October 1963.Even then,it seems,they couldn't be let out on their own.

[MJI]

Cannot reassemble mine.

 

Removed a bogie and I cannot get the swivel mechanism back together.

 

The circle thing around the prop shaft will not fit back to the bogie.

 

HELP!!

 

The problems with mine were

 

1) DCC chip

2) Insulation tape against a flywheel

3) Prop shaft fell out

 

1 & 2 now OK but cannot get that bogie refitted

[John Tomlinson]

MJI,

 

       I found that the "circle thing around the prop shaft" will only fit back into the bogie if the bogie is not snapped together. I don't think it will force - and there's obviously a risk of damage if you try. I suggest you take the top clip-on part off the top of the bogie tower, and this will allow the bogie tower to split a bit - enough to let the lower peg on the "circle thing" to sit in the hole in the lower horizontal part of the tower. The tower can then be snapped together and the top clip snapped into place also. I think I put the drive connector shafts back after all this was done. 

 

You do unfortunately need several hands for this, as you're trying to make sure the worm bearings are in place at the same time. If you find the bogie tower is resisting closing properly, it may be that one of the white gear cogs inside has slipped off its spigot - this happened to me - so the bogie tower needs to be split a bit but not too much which allows this cog to move out of place.

 

I conclude this really wasn't designed for the customer to take to bits!!

 

John.

Edited April 27, 2014 by John Tomlinson

[MJI]

I had another go and pulled the cup off the shaft then did the rest by removing the motor

[250BOB]

I had another go and pulled the cup off the shaft then did the rest by removing the motor

 

Did it work...???

[MJI]

Did it work...???

 

 

Yes, and I don't think it needs new motor / strip down

[250BOB]

Yes, and I don't think it needs new motor / strip down

 

Well done Martin........good effort..!!

 

Glad its worked out ok.

 

Bob

[Francis deWeck]

Is it me, or is it Heljan. I have an original D8501, runs prototypically (like a dog) but runs. Being of a generous nature I thought I'd buy a version 2 release, D8511, thinking that Heljan might have improved matters in the intervening period. Nope, no way, result one unit which starting giving that burning smell, as did its decoder. It experienced a harsh stop/start motion just before that. So, being of good heart, I thought, oh well, a one off! Bought a replacement. This ran for all of 5 feet and stopped. The lights worked, but know one was there (as it were!). I noticed a flickering of the lights at alternately at each end.

 

I gave up and bought a new tool Class 33, which was faultless (to date).

 

I note that a Mashima replacement worked ok, so I reckon I will go in that direction in due course.

 

What I'm wondering is, why hasn't Heljan got this right?

[Southernman46]

They didn't - they got some of it very wrong - some work, some don't and need some post purchase modelling / manufacturers/retailers help to work properly. It's a shame and the why & wherefores have been discussed at some length in this thread but,

 

Personally I'm grateful for Heljan's continued efforts to bring us many long wished for and unusual subjects and have been happy to apply the bush fix etc. 'cos it's within my ability whereas building a brass kit of one isn't........... Mine run as two pairs with one proving the (modified) grunt and the other (ballasted) looking pretty in front of its partner. When they eventually blow up I'll stick a replacement motor in or maybe motorise the 1st wagon.................or model a train of 4 on their way to the breakers ironically towed by a Heljan Crompton...............

 

Drone blither rhubarb.........

[Francis deWeck]

I agree insofar as the models produced by Heljan are interesting, but when nigh on £100 is spent on something which has inherent faults it makes you wonder just how much customer/dealer care there is. The cost for these two models was an unnecessary 50 miles plus travelling time.

 

However, not withstanding all of the above, I wonder if anybody knows whether or not these locos have coreless motors fitted, as that is somewhat relevant to the decoder installation, ie type and configuration?

[Ian Hargrave]

I agree insofar as the models produced by Heljan are interesting, but when nigh on £100 is spent on something which has inherent faults it makes you wonder just how much customer/dealer care there is. The cost for these two models was an unnecessary 50 miles plus travelling time.

 

However, not withstanding all of the above, I wonder if anybody knows whether or not these locos have coreless motors fitted, as that is somewhat relevant to the decoder installation, ie type and configuration?

You mean something like a Faulhaber ? I don't believe any mainstream r-t-r model for the UK market uses a coreless motor ....at least not to my knowledge.I think Golden Age use something like it in their models but that is a specialist field.