Class 800 - Updates

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

....I, like most people, obviously have yet to sample a Class 800 ....

 

 

 

Mike, with due respect, that its all you needed to say.

 

.

[Zomboid]

I don't recall them 'insisting', Hitachi settled on it as the best solution - a very sensible decision, given continuing passenger growth and the relative simplicity by which the GWR sets can all be turned out as bi-modes to cope with electrification delays.

Maybe for a short distance commuter operation, but having spent significant time travelling in 180s, 220-222s and 158/159s, I am quite happy to say that any train with an diesel underfloor engine is not a sensible choice for long distance/ intercity travel. That change alone for people used to a HST will be quite stark, and suddenly that morris marina will look more appealing.

And if that's Hitachi's decision with no input from the DfT then my opinion of Hitachi has just dropped several notches.

Given that train travel is almost always going to be more expensive than driving, the importance of quality needs to be considered more than it is.

[Ron Ron Ron]

....And if that's Hitachi's decision with no input from the DfT then my opinion of Hitachi has just dropped several notches....

 

 

Hitachi originally proposed to have the diesel generators located in the driving power vehicles (as in the HST, but without the traction motors).

That's the original design that was selected as the winning bid for the IEP.

 

It was only later, after much hoo-hah about the estimated power capabilities of the Bi-mode version, that a switch to underfloor engines was made.

It has never been entirely clear who was responsible for that change in design.

[Reorte]

Maybe for a short distance commuter operation, but having spent significant time travelling in 180s, 220-222s and 158/159s, I am quite happy to say that any train with an diesel underfloor engine is not a sensible choice for long distance/ intercity travel. That change alone for people used to a HST will be quite stark, and suddenly that morris marina will look more appealing.

And if that's Hitachi's decision with no input from the DfT then my opinion of Hitachi has just dropped several notches.

Given that train travel is almost always going to be more expensive than driving, the importance of quality needs to be considered more than it is.

Although I agree with the general sentiment if not all coaches are powered then perhaps a bit of a compromise is to have the powered ones as unreserved, with the reserved seats (being more likely to be longer distance travellers) being concentrated in the unpowered vehicles, at least until those have been filled up. Not ideal, just trying to make the best of it.

[modfather]

Mike, with due respect, that its all you needed to say.

 

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I have the pleasure of maintaining them. I have walked down all five sets.

 

There is no obvious up/down through the vehicles apart from the gangway area as you leave the outer motor coaches towards the DPT.

Edited October 31, 2016 by modfather

[Steadfast]

I thought all intermediate coaches had the raised floor whether they had engines fitted or not, only the end (driving) coaches had the low floor!

 

This is what I have been told as I havent seen inside them.

Yes spot on, apologies, I blame recovering from a week of nights...

 

Jo

[Coryton]

Given that train travel is almost always going to be more expensive than driving, the importance of quality needs to be considered more than it is.

 

Really?

 

For a solo passenger?

[wombatofludham]

Really?

 

For a solo passenger?

 

Depends on the journey.  Point to point, off peak on routes with competition probably not but anything slightly more complex it can be evenly balanced.  My last long haul journey from Walsall to Folkestone Central via London cost me roughly the same single as the return journey cost me in petrol in the car I had travelled down to collect.  Previously I had undertaken a journey from Edinburgh to Birmingham which was actually cheaper (single) in XC First Class than in Standard, and about the same cost as the flyBe air fare up to the city in the morning.

 

I regularly travel from Fairbourne to Wolverhampton and I drive, it's at least an hour faster than the train despite the poor roads as far as Shrewsbury and even if I were to use an advance purchase ticket during the winter, when Arriva Trains Wales do have some good fare deals, it often only works out to be about £10-15 more in petrol.  In the summer peak, that figure is reversed and the train is both more expensive and slower.

 

​Of course, there's more to the calculation than direct petrol cost but as I would need to maintain the car anyway living where I do, that cost is effectively "lost" so it comes down to a direct comparison of train fare versus petrol cost and convenience.  I would never dream of driving into London, or even central Birmingham or Manchester and the train (or tram) wins hands down in those cases but in other situations, the choice between train and driving is more finely balanced and where the train is more expensive, other factors such as speed, ease of access, traffic congestion or comfort have to have a worthwhile value to justify taking the train.

[ess1uk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-38263678

[russ p]

I find the writing on the side slightly offensive ' designed in Japan,built in Britain' as if the birthplace of railways can't design a train now!

[PaulRhB]

It's only talking about this train Russ and technically it's accurate, PR types think everyone associates Japan with ultimate quality engineering design.

 

 

You'll have to print off some paper slips and stick them on saying design brief created in UK

Tested by . . .

Edited December 9, 2016 by PaulRhB

[russ p]

People should be reminded of some of the pretty awful 1970s Japanese cars to show the other side of Japanese quality!

 

I can find absolutely nothing I like about these new trains, I appreciate they will probably be reliable but have about as much character as a hi rise lift!

[surfsup]

I find the writing on the side slightly offensive ' designed in Japan,built in Britain' as if the birthplace of railways can't design a train now!

The funny thing is, is even that statement is a little misleading. A fair chunk of the design work for the IEP / SET Project was actually done by the Warwick based design agency DCA.

 

http://www.dca-design.com/work/hitachi-class-800-series-high-speed-train

 

So really it's a little less designed in Japan, more Designed in Leamington, Built in Japan / Britain.

 

VT Interior plans are also now available on here. Sadly the seats amongst other interior items are the DfT spec ones.

https://www.dca-design.com/latest/virgin-trains-unveils-dca%E2%80%99s-interior-design-proposals-its-new-azuma-trains

[russ p]

Quite ironic that the plaxtons coach looks to have most legroom

The 800 interior looks more suited to a 156 than a long distance Inter-city train

Absolutely awful

[royaloak]

Yes spot on, apologies, I blame recovering from a week of nights...

 

Jo

No need to apologise we all get confused, especially after a week of nights.

[cornish trains jez]

This is what really winds me up about today's boring railways. Why are we importing trains from abroad when we have been building trains for over a century in the U.K. Why do we need to import class 66's and the likes form the states, class 800's and those aweful looking Class 700's from Japan.

If we started producing rolling stock again in this country, it would give a proper rebirth and regeneration of our railways, of which we have always been so very proud of. It would also create hundreds of much needed jobs for skilled designers, engineers etc. Assembling pre made rubbish doesn't count as producing railways in the U.K. We have built some of the most successful designs in the world, take the HST for example.....even looks like it's replacement IEP isn't even up to the same standard.

I frequently travel on the new Electrostars which are super smart but seriously uncomfortable. Well that's progress for you, higher train fares and no consideration for passenger comfort.

[Glorious NSE]

 

 

Why do we need to import class 66's and the likes form the states

 

We can't as they don't make them any more.

 

We did when they did, because EMD didn't build them over here. We didn't build an equivalent ourselves because we couldn't compete with an off-the-peg product after decades of stuffing up our own market for loco's...

 

class 800's

 

Are mostly being built in the UK

 

and those aweful looking Class 700's from Japan

 

Which are coming from Siemens in Germany.

 

If we started producing rolling stock again in this country

 

We've never stopped producing rolling stock in this country.

 

Assembling pre made rubbish doesn't count as producing railways in the U.K.

 

Nobody anywhere builds complete passenger trains from scratch, it wasn't that different under BR. Did they build pantographs? Did they build seats? Same difference. Yadda yadda...

 

 

[russ p]

One of the most important differences is any profit goes to a Japanese company.

You cannot class the 800 as being built in Britain it is simply assembled here.

If it was built here it would take a bigger workforce in a more specialised factory

[Glorious NSE]

You cannot class the 800 as being built in Britain it is simply assembled here.

 

Again, any passenger unit anywhere these days is assembled. It might well be that hasn't happened in reality since steam loco's stopped being constructed.

[298]

People should be reminded of some of the pretty awful 1970s Japanese cars to show the other side of Japanese quality!

Unlike my 2yr old Japanese car, good reviews but near the bottom of the reliability table. It was built in Sunderland.

 

The "Place of Manufacture" of modern trains is regarded as insignificant when the hours spent maintaining it over its service lifetime are considered. Although I'd take the point on board that this is turnover for a foreign based company if it is part of a leasing and maintenance contract with the manufacturer.

[newbryford]

. Although I'd take the point on board that this is turnover for a foreign based company if it is part of a leasing and maintenance contract with the manufacturer.

 

Which will pay the wages of people living in the UK...............

 

Cheers,

Mick

[newbryford]

Again, any passenger unit anywhere these days is assembled. It might well be that hasn't happened in reality since steam loco's stopped being constructed.

 

Many European units will be built [1] using traction packages built [1] in Preston.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

[1] Definition of built.

construct (something) by putting parts or material together

 

.

[Glorious NSE]

 

Many European units will be built [1] using traction packages built [1] in Preston.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

[1] Definition of built.

construct (something) by putting parts or material together

 

.

 

 

And Siemens frequently makes the point that there is more British built content involved in one of their German assembled units than there is in a British assembled Electrostar from Bombardier...

 

 

[cornish trains jez]

We can't as they don't make them any more.

We did when they did, because EMD didn't build them over here. We didn't build an equivalent ourselves because we couldn't compete with an off-the-peg product after decades of stuffing up our own market for loco's...

 

 

 

Are mostly being built in the UK

 

 

 

Which are coming from Siemens in Germany.

 

 

 

We've never stopped producing rolling stock in this country.

 

 

 

Nobody anywhere builds complete passenger trains from scratch, it wasn't that different under BR. Did they build pantographs? Did they build seats? Same difference. Yadda yadda...

 

Thanks for picking holes in my post but the bottom line is, we don't build rolling stock in the UK to the degree we used to. Such a shame.... Edited December 9, 2016 by cornish trains jez

[Glorious NSE]

Thanks for picking holes in my post but the bottom line is, we don't build rolling stock in the UK to the degree we used to. Such a shame....

Very true. There are undoubtedly reasons for that though if you look.

 

Wouldn't it be lovely if we could celebrate the thousands of people employed building things for the rail industry in the UK though, rather than spreading the meme that we don't do that anymore.