Class 800 - Updates

[Geoff Endacott]

First Class 800 SET: No. 8000002 arrived at Swansea High Street Station this morning. Then went onto the new Maliphant St. Depot:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ciejcIqi_Y4

 

It has an awfully long number!

 

Geoff Endacott

[4630]

It has an awfully long number!

 

Geoff Endacott

 

 

It's the leasing cost - the number is just missing the £ sign.  

[simon47603]

Well the price of the GWML Electrification has gone up. So to to has the number on the 800's. My apologies I've edited it now!!

[D854_Tiger]

It's the leasing cost - the number is just missing the £ sign.  

 

I wonder how much cheaper a follow on order for non tilt Pendolinos might have been and Voyagers for the WoE (though not five car ones of course) and the other GW routes not being electrified

 

Then tilting Voyagers over the bit between Exeter and Plymouth is that not a solution to a problem staring us in the face, provided they were allowed to tilt and something was done to weather proof (sorry sea proof) the rheostatic braking.

 

Tilt really comes into its own on slower pieces of railway, rather than adding ten miles an hour to a 110 mph bit, something the Germans and the Japanese have demonstrated well.

 

I can think of no better or more important piece of railway than that through Devon to exploit tilting trains.

 

Then there was a rumour that most of the TOCs concerned would have preferred something off the shelf, EC even going so far as to borrow a Pendolino to give it a try.

 

Well someone had to say it, I will now leave the room.

[D854_Tiger]

I wonder how much cheaper a follow on order for non tilt Pendolinos might have been and Voyagers for the WoE (though not five car ones of course) and the other GW routes not being electrified

 

Then tilting Voyagers over the bit between Exeter and Plymouth is that not a solution to a problem staring us in the face, provided they were allowed to tilt and something was done to weather proof (sorry sea proof) the rheostatic braking.

 

Tilt really comes into its own on slower pieces of railway, rather than adding ten miles an hour to a 110 mph bit, something the Germans and the Japanese have demonstrated well.

 

I can think of no better or more important piece of railway than that through Devon to exploit tilting trains.

 

Then there was a rumour that most of the TOCs concerned would have preferred something off the shelf, EC even going so far as to borrow a Pendolino to give it a try.

 

Well someone had to say it, I will now leave the room.

 

 

P.S Come to think of it, tilting through Cornwall wouldn't be a bad idea on a railway that hardly has one piece of straight track anywhere along it.

[The Fatadder]

Interesting thing I heard the others day, apparently the 800s will have no capability for hot food (as in microwaved hot rather than cooked hot) and will be the end of the Pullman service.

 

So we have slower trains, with worse seating (in 1st at least) and worse food.

What a farce

[jamie92208]

I wonder how much cheaper a follow on order for non tilt Pendolinos might have been and Voyagers for the WoE (though not five car ones of course) and the other GW routes not being electrified

 

Then tilting Voyagers over the bit between Exeter and Plymouth is that not a solution to a problem staring us in the face, provided they were allowed to tilt and something was done to weather proof (sorry sea proof) the rheostatic braking.

 

Tilt really comes into its own on slower pieces of railway, rather than adding ten miles an hour to a 110 mph bit, something the Germans and the Japanese have demonstrated well.

 

I can think of no better or more important piece of railway than that through Devon to exploit tilting trains.

 

Then there was a rumour that most of the TOCs concerned would have preferred something off the shelf, EC even going so far as to borrow a Pendolino to give it a try.

 

Well someone had to say it, I will now leave the room.

 

From what I have read about the procurement of the 800 class, the story, if ever written could be a textbook case of how not to do it.   Roger Ford in Modern railways and Nigel Harris in Rail have been particular scourges of the Dft.   I am surprised that the Public accounts Committee haven't made more of it in the light of the fact that it is going to cost us all a lot in the future through our taxes.

 

Jamie

[modfather]

Interesting thing I heard the others day, apparently the 800s will have no capability for hot food (as in microwaved hot rather than cooked hot) and will be the end of the Pullman service.

 

So we have slower trains, with worse seating (in 1st at least) and worse food.

What a farce

Apart from the ceramic hobs, grill and convection ovens?

 

There's only three choices of kugel designed catering fitted...

[Ron Ron Ron]

......Then there was a rumour that most of the TOCs concerned would have preferred something off the shelf, EC even going so far as to borrow a Pendolino to give it a try.....

 

 

The Intercity Express Programme predates the existence of East Coast and the east coast Pendolino episode was purely to do with a power play between DafT and Virgin West Coast, over the WCML franchise extension and the introduction of the 4 extra Pendolinos and the extra 2 coaches to make up the other 11-car trains.

 

Also, I think it's worth noting that at the time of the inception of the IEP and again at the later time when the orders were placed, nobody knew who the operating TOC's would be when the trains were eventually delivered.

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

So we have slower trains,

 

Only because the GWML electrification is running behind schedule and will not be fully completed for some time (if ever, if some are to be believed).

The trains should actually be capable of being faster than the HST's. Apart from the faster acceleration on electrickery, they are specified to be capable of 140 mph running under the wires, like the IC225's (subject to in-cab signalling, infrastructure improvements etc.).

As mentioned over and over again in this thread (and others) the requirement for diesel running, was deliberately set for the predominately lower max line speeds off the wires; as envisioned at the outset.

 

 

with worse seating (in 1st at least)

Almost all new trains appear to afflicted with this problem.

That's an industry issue and not specific to any one particular make or model of train.

The Daft may be particularly culpable in this instance, but it doesn't seem to be a unique example.

 

 

and worse food.

What a farce

Have you tried the food they are offering Rich .....on a yet to be introduced train?

It might be more productive to use your Tardis to pop over to next week and find out what the EuroMillions winning numbers will be.   

 

Seriously though, I think the Modfather answered that one quite well.

It's up to the TOC, what level and standard of catering they are prepared to offer and if they fall short, surely that's where the blame should be laid.

 

 

.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[The Fatadder]

Have you tried the food they are offering Rich .....on a yet to be introduced train?

It might be more productive to use your Tardis to pop over to next week and find out what the EuroMillions winning numbers will be.

 

.

Given last week I was in a focus group tasting their new menu for first class, test I think I have a pretty good idea as to their new menu. And was repeatedly told the hot offering would be reduced/ eliminated

[Ron Ron Ron]

Given last week I was in a focus group tasting their new menu for first class, test I think I have a pretty good idea as to their new menu. And was repeatedly told the hot offering would be reduced/ eliminated

 

 

OK, thanks for making that clear.

You originally made it sound like another unfounded rumour, of which here have been many.

 

As I said, if GWR are planning to reduce the level and quality of their catering offering, that's a GWR issue and entirely down to them.

They could if they so decided and thought it viable, introduce Michelin 3 Star levels of excellence.

It should have nothing to do with whatever trains they are running. Right or wrong, it's their commercial decision.

 

 

.

[phil-b259]

 It's up to the TOC, what level and standard of catering they are prepared to offer and if they fall short, surely that's where the blame should be laid.

.

 

 

Given the smaller food preparation facilities in the IEPs (compared to a HST Mk3 coach) - which FGW cannot change,  there is every reason to be worried. Besides for a long time the DfT have been telling us for some time that on train catering makes a loss and takes up valuable space that could be used for more seats - and as they designed the train they have the perfect ability to put their wishes into practice.

[phil-b259]

As I said, if GWR are planning to reduce the level and quality of their catering offering, that's a GWR issue and entirely down to them.

They could if they so decided and thought it viable, introduce Michelin 3 Star levels of excellence.

.

 

Not if the food preparation area doesn't have the right sort of kit (or enough room for the necessary kit to be fitted). Again I remind you that as far as the 800s are concerned GWR had very little say in the specification of the passenger accommodation or layout - that was organised by Whitehall.

 

The 802s are a bit different as the order specifically came from FGW not the DfT but even so FGW are really only limited to deciding the decor as Hitachi are not going to start moving bulkheads etc around, however much FGW ask them too

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting thing I heard the others day, apparently the 800s will have no capability for hot food (as in microwaved hot rather than cooked hot) and will be the end of the Pullman service.

 

So we have slower trains, with worse seating (in 1st at least) and worse food.

What a farce

 

I'm not at all sure what will actually happen (noting the contents of several other recent posts) as Mark Hopwood not so long back said the opposite and that a Pullman service will still be offered on a limited number of trains.  But not a lot of catenary has been added to the GWML landscape since he said that so things might have changed and passengers who like that sort of thing (and provide a useful revenue stream) will no doubt be left entirely in the hands of DafT's ideas of what a train should look like.

 

Time will tell but provided there is a suitable storage area for insulated trolleys there might possibly be an answer.  As Ron has said what they do or don't do is their commercial decision and it really depends on what they think is worth doing and then findinga way of doing it - if they want to.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Given the smaller food preparation facilities in the IEPs (compared to a HST Mk3 coach) - which FGW cannot change,  there is every reason to be worried. Besides for a long time the DfT have been telling us for some time that on train catering makes a loss and takes up valuable space that could be used for more seats - and as they designed the train they have the perfect ability to put their wishes into practice.

 

 

In fairness Phil, it's not only the DafT that have been telling us that on train catering makes a loss. back in the day BR told us so, as did GNER and NXEC and even FGW.

 

It seems pretty obvious that if there was money to be made, there would be plenty of food and drink to buy on board. The TOC would find a way.

As it is, what do you want, more seats to be available to meet an ever increasing demand for travel, or a loss making restaurant car that only a relative handful of people will use?

Having said that, I think most will agree that the DafT have meddled too far in terms of the fit and finish and have rather tied the hands of Agility and of the TOC's (present and future) in terms of what they can and can't do with their product offering on these particular IEP ordered trains.

 

It's now up to GWR and VTEC to make the best of what they have. A good company should be able to overcome most if not all the obstacles put in the way of good service provision. I'm not particularly hopeful though. [Edit: having read Mike and Adrian's posts (above and below), let's hope the TOC's do make a go of it]

 

 

.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[HillsideDepot]

I'm not at all sure what will actually happen (noting the contents of several other recent posts) as Mark Hopwood not so long back said the opposite and that a Pullman service will still be offered on a limited number of trains.  

Certainly the word a few weeks back on a CRP trip was that the Pullman service would remain and they were thinking along the lines that if the kitchen was there maybe something similar to the Travelling Chef idea might be possible. I really sensed that GWR is looking to use every trick in the book to make the new trains work to the best of their ability, and that the delays, whilst unwelcome, have given them a 100% bi-mode fleet, a bit more thinking time and new possibilities which hadn't previously been considered. Things like the Bedwyn and Frome class 800 services, which in turn free up the diesel units which would have worked a Newbury - Bedwyn shuttle for use else where on a system bursting at the seams. 

 

Given a free choice I'm sure there would be a different solution, but we are where we are, and GWR (as a whole, and as business units within the whole) seem keen to get the best out of what they are about to receive.

[The Stationmaster]

Certainly the word a few weeks back on a CRP trip was that the Pullman service would remain and they were thinking along the lines that if the kitchen was there maybe something similar to the Travelling Chef idea might be possible. I really sensed that GWR is looking to use every trick in the book to make the new trains work to the best of their ability, and that the delays, whilst unwelcome, have given them a 100% bi-mode fleet, a bit more thinking time and new possibilities which hadn't previously been considered. Things like the Bedwyn and Frome class 800 services, which in turn free up the diesel units which would have worked a Newbury - Bedwyn shuttle for use else where on a system bursting at the seams. 

 

Given a free choice I'm sure there would be a different solution, but we are where we are, and GWR (as a whole, and as business units within the whole) seem keen to get the best out of what they are about to receive.

 

Having heard - and asked questions of - Mark Hopwood on a couple of occasions at local User Group meetings I have been consistently impressed by his commitment to trying to do whatever they can to offer a quality of onboard service and level of train service which they know their passengers want.  At the most recent meeting Mark definitely didn't paint an 'all in the garden is rosy' type of picture but was remarkably candid with various current information and about GWR's intentions for the future and both the openness and enthusiasm were very encouraging as was his commitment to do whatever was possible in response to what GWR perceive their passenger's needs as being.

 

They might or might not achieve all they want (one local idea in respect of car parking expansion is, for example, falling short of their hopes as the financial numbers don't work) but I'm increasingly convinced every time I listen to him that he will do his best and that he actually cares.  Mind you it would do him good to lose a bit of weight (same goes for me of course  ).

[Wild Boar Fell]

Is this another Class 802 body shell preparing to make its journey to the Italian assembly plant from Japan?

Note the date 5/3/17 (today).

 

 

 

 

Think I saw this vehicle and an Intermediate on the M1 about 4:45 near Junction 24, it may be designed for 140mph, but it certainly wasn't doing that today. 

First of the new Hitachi's I have seen.

 

Wild Boar Fell

 

Edit: Certainly a GWR Green one, without numbers but had been fitted with it's bogies.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Wild Boar Fell

[Ron Ron Ron]

Think I saw this vehicle and an Intermediate on the M1 about 4:45 near Junction 24, it may be designed for 140mph, but it certainly wasn't doing that today.  ........

 

 

Reports elsewhere inform us that it's one of the vehicles from the first Class 800/3 to arrive in the UK, which was delivered via Southampton Docks last week.

The 800/3's are those units which were originally ordered as electric Class 801's for GWR. That order was changed last year to one for more bi-mode Class 800's, due to the late running GWML electrification programme.

 

.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[railsquid]

In fairness Phil, it's not only the DafT that have been telling us that on train catering makes a loss. back in the day BR told us so, as did GNER and NXEC and even FGW.

 

It seems pretty obvious that if there was money to be made, there would be plenty of food and drink to buy on board. The TOC would find a way.

As it is, what do you want, more seats to be available to meet an ever increasing demand for travel, or a loss making restaurant car that only a relative handful of people will use?.

 

At the risk of going slightly OT, here in Japan you won't find hot food any more on a train (apart from maybe some sleeper/excursion services); the original Shinkansens did have restaurant cars, which got downgraded to buffets, and now exclusively trolley service only.

[cornish trains jez]

Even though I can't stand these weird looking things, I did get a rather nice picture at Grantham.

Here is 800002 standing at Grantham on 11th April 2017 on a test run. It was double heading 800001 and interestingly running on both diesel power and electric power. It headed back towards Peterborough a few minutes after this shot was taken.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

 

[APOLLO]

Nice looking sleek modern train, crap paint scheme though - has it been broadsided by a flock of birds ? (Mallards !!!!!).

 

As to catering on long distance trains I'll stick to my Greggs sausage roll and a tin of pop.

 

Brit15

[cal.n]

I was recently at Dunkeld and Birnam Station which is a remote tiny place just north of Perth on the Highland Mainline, where there was a small siding with a sign saying 'IEP gauging Project'. There was no sign of anything going on in the yard, just a car (which I assume is the signalmans) and some p-way related clutter. What are they doing here and why such a remote place. Didn't get a photo but this is it from Google Maps a while ago (with no IEP sign)

 

 

 

[DavidB]

Lots of class 800 action on the GWML today, with at least one 9 car and two 5 cars out and about.  Initial acceleration from the platform at Reading looked impressive, per earlier comments higher up the thread about low speed tractive effort, but the speed of the nine car westbound through Didcot on greens was distinctly underwhelming compared to the HST that preceded it.   With the shiny new 707s also on test, Reading is certainly a very different place these days from the old red brick station of my trainspotting youth.

 

David

Edited April 24, 2017 by DavidB