Class 800 - Updates

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

It's a bit late, but a bit of a report of my latest few Class 800 runs from Reading to Swindon and Return a few weeks ago.

 

The Down runs were both 16:12 Swansea Trains, although these are not on my diagram list from GWR (which admittedly was for December 2017, so could have easily changed). The first run was on the day of the points failure at Didcot (that delayed the royal couple), this meant that we were put over onto the reliefs at Reading (from Platform 8) and ran slow, presumably following a stopping service, up to Pangbourne where we came to a stand at T795. It was from here I discovered the immense acceleration of the Class 800 on Electric Power, as we acclerated away under greens, and by the time we passed the next signal T807, we were doing Linespeed. We whisked along under Chosley and at which point we slowed to a crawl, which meant I wasn't able to time the change-over to make sure that it matched my calculations. We then did our best running under diesel to Swindon, where we arrived 24 late.

 

The second down run was the following week, this time the Main was open to Didcot, I decided to sit in the leading driving car so I could hear the pantograph lower at Didcot. Again we stormed away from a standing start, and I would estimate we were doing at least 90 through Tilehurst, from there we made it Cholsey, were we slowed considerably (running on cautions from South Moreton)  to run through Didcot, again undertaking the Change-Over at less than linespeed, meaning my attempts to time were again thwarted. Again we did our best to Swindon, although we were bang on time arriving. The interesting thing about this run was the sound of the vibration of the Pantograph between Reading and Didcot, it did add some noise to the journey, but not a lot.

 

The only Up run was on the same day as the first Down run I did, this time on the 18:30 to Paddington. The trip was uneventful, although when we changed-over at Didcot, there was a noticeable 'shuddering' of the coach when the engines were fully shut down at Cholsey (the start up the other way was fairly smooth). However, at Reading, there was some difficulty in getting one of the doors shut, but this was solved, although a lot of the delay in the stop was that the Station Wombles at Reading were clueless at how to fix it quickly and stood around looking at each other. I also have discovered that lots of passengers are forcing the doors open at Stations as they presumably think they are opening too slowly, so this may be damaging them a little.

 

In terms of Passenger Comfort, I have had no problem with the seats and actually on my second Down run, I thought they were quite comfortable. The weird thing is the difference in position relative to the Windows between the Driving Cars and Trailer Cars, as the floor is lower in the Driving Cars, the seats are lower against the Windows, which makes it feel a little odd to me. I still think that the interior is a vast improvement over the HST's, I have found the HSTs to be a little gloomy, drafty, noisy (on the part of the Vestibule Doors being unable to close on a lot of the coaches) and dirty. Where as the 800's are light, airy, quiet and just all round a far more pleasant experience, even standing next to the doors is pleasant, where the experience of standing next to an HST doors is frankly uncomfortable and cold. 

 

As a person who's working life is spent during to make the railway more efficient, the advent of the IEPs is great, the power doors will make a huge difference to Station Dwell Times and I think the emergency engine on the 801s is a great idea and makes sense, having seen the electric acceleration of an IEP that has to carry 6 engines around, the accleration of a IEP that has to only carry one will be fantastic. Every driver I've spoken to and have heard stories from is that they love them.

 

I'm hugely impressed by the IET's and can't wait until the HSTs are gone.

 

In other news, we have started more APCO design for December and hopefully in the near future, ASDO Balises will be start to be installed.

 

Simon

[royaloak]

88s have about 1000hp on diesel, don't they? With 5 on and a flat line they'd probably be good for 60-70 at a guess. But I doubt acceleration would be particularly lively.

Which is the bit everyone forgets about! 

 

Top speed is rather pointless if it takes forever to get there, a loco with a lower top speed but better acceleration can be capable of better point to point timings than a loco with a higher top speed but poor acceleration!

[Ken.W]

The main problem Hull Trains will have with their new diesels is all that dead weight they will have to lug around between Doncaster and Kings Cross.

 

There's been no question over the performance of the 800s in electric mode so how will lugging the dead weight of the engines around be a problem?

It's when actually running on the diesels that the performance question arises, and as you've said, HT have had sense to order 802s instead.

 

As opposed to the alternative, Hull Trains' main problem at present of having to run on diesel for 170 miles under the wires for the sake of the short run from Templehurst to Hull, perhaps you'd prefer to see that continue? And after the GWML Electrification fiasco, there's no prospect of places like Hull being electrified anytime soon.

 

I think the emergency diesel is an excellent idea. (I read it adds 1% to the weight of the train...)

 

Having power for air conditioning and lighting even without overhead power will come in useful at times I'm sure.

 

Or - where high speed coasting would be used on an all-electric train - it can presumably get a bit of a boost from the engine and - more to the point - has power for on-board facilities and to make sure the brakes stay off.

 

Exactly. During the periods last year when high speed coasting was being used to get electrics though a dead section, there were at least two occasions of a train running short of Main Reservoir Air and consequently dumping the brake in the middle of the dead section - just because there was no power for the compressor!

 

On another occasion I've previously related, due to a problem I'd to pan down around East Cowton, at about 80, and coast the approx 8 mile into Darlington, no problem speed-wise, still had to brake for going inside at Darlington, but had only just stopped in the platform when the Low Main Air Protection activated!

edit to add; There's even long been considerations of fitting emergency gens. to Mk4 DVTs to maintain train supply when stuck in a dead section, but seems to have been dismissed as unfeasible to fit

 

The problem with the ECML is that the wires come down rather more often than they really should, the WCML wiring is far more substantial and the GW electrification looks like it's been designed to stay up in a hurricane on Jupiter.

 

Then if a train becomes entangled in the wires I'm not sure it's going anywhere until it has been untangled, neither are any trains stuck behind and I'm not sure how diesel engines change that situation.

 

Hotel power is useful but suggests the railway accepts there are just going to have to be long delays, whenever the wires come down, and I'm not sure if that's entirely acceptable.

There has been some upgrading work taking place, particularly of 'weak spots'. For example, all the Neutral Sections in 'headspan' type structures have been converted to portal structures.

If a train's entangled in the wires, having diesel engines will at least allow the one's stuck behind in the dead section to unstick themselves, and for the affected train to keep train supply on for air con etc. If you're still unsure of the value of this, try asking the passengers involved in the incident several years ago where a train was stuck for several hours on the hottest day of the year, and they ended up breaking windows and self-evacuating using emergency door releases, before either suffocating or roasting.

 

Unfortunately, it's part of the nature of things that if a train's entangled in wires, it is going to be there for some time.

A common situation is that the remains of the pan are left in an 'out of gauge' position so the train can't be moved without bringing even more wire down. Something I've experienced in both de-wirements I've attended with thunderbirds.

This requires obviously, fitters to be got out to the site in order to remove the remains of the pan or secure it in a safe position if possible, but also an overhead line crew is needed to drive out to site (usually in the middle of nowhere) from wherever they're based, as it's necessary to physically isolate the affected section - using the manual post-mounted switches - and earthed by attaching actual earthing straps, before then going through the procedures of issuing authority to work permits, before anyone even thinks about going up on the roof to do the work. Usually the adjoining line also needs isolating while this takes place, so there's need to balance getting the work done and not getting too many trains stacked up in the queue.

What might seem not entirely acceptable is not always in line with what's possible. You don't p*ss about where there's 25 killer volts about

Edited February 5, 2018 by Ken.W

[JDW]

I think the importance of the need to keep air con etc running is an aspect that has been largely overlooked.  As Ken mentioned above, in a modern train with no opening windows if there is a loss of power then it can reasonably quickly lead to a loss of batteries and so no fresh air entering.  Whether that in itself is enough justification (even if it is an important justification) is open to debate, but it must certainly become something that is more and more important now there is no other way of getting fresh air in.  

[Pandora]

I think the importance of the need to keep air con etc running is an aspect that has been largely overlooked.  As Ken mentioned above, in a modern train with no opening windows if there is a loss of power then it can reasonably quickly lead to a loss of batteries and so no fresh air entering.  Whether that in itself is enough justification (even if it is an important justification) is open to debate, but it must certainly become something that is more and more important now there is no other way of getting fresh air in.  

Keeping everything running, lighting, air-conditioning,  door control keeps the passengers from worrying and does agreat deal to minimise  the possibilty of an uncontrolled  evacuation of the  train, an uncontrolled passenger evacuation being an operational nightmare for a train crew 

[vitalspark]

Apparently a GW liveried example worked into Glasgow Central on test...I believe it was last week.

 

Dave. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by vitalspark

[jjb1970]

Which is the bit everyone forgets about! 

 

Top speed is rather pointless if it takes forever to get there, a loco with a lower top speed but better acceleration can be capable of better point to point timings than a loco with a higher top speed but poor acceleration!

 

Wasn't that one of the issues with the peaks? Their top speed was good but they had a reputation for being a bit sluggish reaching it.

[D854_Tiger]

There's been no question over the performance of the 800s in electric mode so how will lugging the dead weight of the engines around be a problem?

 

     ............. because Hull trains will still be lumbered with all the costs of running diesel trains.

 

Same for GW, they will essentially be lumbered with the cost of running an all diesel railway, the maintenance, energy, track and infrastructure costs begging the question as to why anyone is spending 2bn putting the wires up in the first place.

 

Electric railways only make economic sense when you use them for electric trains.

 

It goes to the heart of the whole bi-mode debate to which my contribution would be how many other nations are running bi-mode diesels under overhead electrification on this kind of scale.

 

But then, being fair. if it's just a stop gap solution, until further electrification can be delivered, then fine and, being fair to the politicians, we shouldn't rule that out quite yet.

 

As for Hull ever being electrified, then I don't think you are really being very fair there, spoiling the entire debate by being realistic.

[Fat Controller]

     ............. because Hull trains will still be lumbered with all the costs of running diesel trains.

 

Same for GW, they will essentially be lumbered with the cost of running an all diesel railway, the maintenance, energy, track and infrastructure costs begging the question as to why anyone is spending 2bn putting the wires up in the first place.

 

Electric railways only make economic sense when you use them for electric trains.

 

It goes to the heart of the whole bi-mode debate to which my contribution would be how many other nations are running bi-mode diesels under overhead electrification on this kind of scale.

 

But then, being fair. if it's just a stop gap solution, until further electrification can be delivered, then fine and, being fair to the politicians, we shouldn't rule that out quite yet.

 

As for Hull ever being electrified, then I don't think you are really being very fair there, spoiling the entire debate by being realistic.

France has quite a lot of long cross-country routes (and some radial routes from Paris) served by bi-modal (and even bi-modal, multi-voltage) units. Lyon- Nantes being one example, and Paris-Troyes-Mulhouse another.

[Geoff Endacott]

Presumably the 801s will no longer be Azumas.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Coryton]

Presumably the 801s will no longer be Azumas.

 

 

We can only hope...

[woodenhead]

Presumably the 801s will no longer be Azumas.

 

Geoff Endacott

 As a government contract perhaps HST2 would be appropriate once again, but would someone dare to use APT2

[Zomboid]

I'm as anti Bi-mode as anyone you'll find, but they do make sense for some applications. As an excuse to not electrify to Bristol or Swansea, absolutely not, but to preserve a mostly electric through service from London to Carmarthen they do make sense. The same goes for Hull (for now, though Leeds to Hull would get wires eventually in a sensible country, enabling the London trains to go electric).

[caradoc]

In the US New Jersey Transit has a fleet of 35 bi-mode ALP-45DP locos, with another 17 on order, some of which I had the pleasure of travelling behind last year ! However, I agree with D854_Tiger that bi-mode trains are sensible for running through trains to locations where electrification cannot be justified, but should certainly not be providing the core service between major locations such as London and Bristol/Cardiff/Swansea.

[D854_Tiger]

I'm as anti Bi-mode as anyone you'll find, but they do make sense for some applications. As an excuse to not electrify to Bristol or Swansea, absolutely not, but to preserve a mostly electric through service from London to Carmarthen they do make sense. The same goes for Hull (for now, though Leeds to Hull would get wires eventually in a sensible country, enabling the London trains to go electric).

 

They do make sense in terms of emissions (provided the electricity they use is clean) and the regenerative braking ticks all the right eco boxes as well.

 

Then the nature of the GW network was a problem, where the different multifarious main line routes start diverging as early as Reading, meaning loco changeovers would have been a messy solution.

 

The network that really cries out for bi-mode is XC, large sections of electrified main line going to waste and large sections of non-electric railway that will inevitably be a long way down the queue for any upgrade.

 

Then according to Roger Ford recently, the bi-mode Voyager concept is still not completely off the agenda and stick some third rail kit on them as well and hey presto - the tri-mode.

 

That could be a neat cost-effective solution to more than one problem, solving the overcrowding issue as well.

[Coryton]

In the US New Jersey Transit has a fleet of 35 bi-mode ALP-45DP locos, with another 17 on order, some of which I had the pleasure of travelling behind last year ! However, I agree with D854_Tiger that bi-mode trains are sensible for running through trains to locations where electrification cannot be justified, but should certainly not be providing the core service between major locations such as London and Bristol/Cardiff/Swansea.

 

The US may be the only country to have predominately diesel locomotives with third rail "last mile" capability - to get them through the electric-only tunnels under Manhatten.

 

I believe that diesels are banned under old legislation designed to replace steam with clean electric traction, but it might also be that the tunnels aren't well enough ventilated to safely use diesels.

 

(Edited for clarity)

Edited February 6, 2018 by Coryton

[jamie92208]

The US may be the only country to have predominately diesel locomotives with third rail "last mile" capability - to get them through the electric-only tunnels under Manhatten.

 

I believe that diesels are banned under old legislation designed to replace steam with clean electric traction, but it might be that the tunnels aren't well enough ventilated to safely use diesels.

 

As far as I can remember the legislation dates from about 1904 and one of the changeover points was Harmon for northbound trains out of Grand central. Another one was Manhattan Transfer.   

 

Jamie

[Pandora]

I'm hugely impressed by the IET's.

 

 

 

Simon

 

Count me in on that, I 've had a few trips in them to see how they go.  The acceleration on electric power is more  jet aeroplane take off  than train,  the acceleration from rest on diesel power is strong too.  In fact how do the 800s keep their feet? Do they have some sort of extremely advanced wheel slip control system?

[62613]

I'm as anti Bi-mode as anyone you'll find, but they do make sense for some applications. As an excuse to not electrify to Bristol or Swansea, absolutely not, but to preserve a mostly electric through service from London to Carmarthen they do make sense. The same goes for Hull (for now, though Leeds to Hull would get wires eventually in a sensible country, enabling the London trains to go electric).

The last sentence. The Liverpool to Manchester Route via Chat Moss was electrified in the middle and at least one end for forty years before the infill was carried out! Similar applied to the former CLC route, which was electrified at both ends

Edited February 7, 2018 by 62613

[royaloak]

I'm hugely impressed by the IET's.

 

 

 

Simon

 

Count me in on that, I 've had a few trips in them to see how they go.  The acceleration on electric power is more  jet aeroplane take off  than train,  the acceleration from rest on diesel power is strong too.  In fact how do the 800s keep their feet? Do they have some sort of extremely advanced wheel slip control system?

What about the acceleration above 30mph where it really matters when running on diesel?

Edited February 7, 2018 by royaloak

[Zomboid]

That's hard to detect as a passenger. The 0-30 you can see and feel the difference, but above that without a speedometer I can't tell if it's accelerating fast or not. Doesn't matter if it's a HST, IET or a 450 for that matter.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Zomboid

[Titan]

The last sentence. The Liverpool to Manchester Route via Chat Moss was electrified in the middle and at least one end for forty years before the infill was carried out! Similar applied to the former CLC route, which was electrified at both ends

 

And on some of the motorway under bridges they made provision for future OLE. 40 years on the protective coating from the studs was removed, and the new structures bolted to them! Although some inconvenience was experienced due to them being installed to imperial dimensions and the new stuff being metric, but never the less...

[RJS1977]

I'm as anti Bi-mode as anyone you'll find, but they do make sense for some applications. As an excuse to not electrify to Bristol or Swansea, absolutely not, but to preserve a mostly electric through service from London to Carmarthen they do make sense. The same goes for Hull (for now, though Leeds to Hull would get wires eventually in a sensible country, enabling the London trains to go electric).

 

Not to mention emergency diversions like Newport-Swindon via Gloucester. There are a remarkable number of diversionary routes between the various GWR main lines west of Reading (and even further east if you include Didcot-London via Bicester or the Reading - Waterloo line. No way that all of them will ever be electrified.

 

Of course, it's not all that long ago that there was talk of converting Voyagers to bi-mode.

[jamie92208]

 

Of course, it's not all that long ago that there was talk of converting Voyagers to bi-mode.

 

There still is such talk according to Uncle Roger.

 

Jamie

[royaloak]

That's hard to detect as a passenger. The 0-30 you can see and feel the difference, but above that without a speedometer I can't tell if it's accelerating fast or not. Doesn't matter if it's a HST, IET or a 450 for that matter.

Which is why Hitachi have upped the power the way they have, to give the impression of fantastic acceleration but when the train actually needs the power to maintain that acceleration the engines run back to the lethargic 700kW power rating.

Edited February 7, 2018 by royaloak