Class 800 - Updates

[Gwiwer]

One would have thought that whatever train was to replace the HST would be specified to, at the very least, match its performance, if not improve on it given 40 additional years of railway development and experience. That this is clearly not the case, on diesel power anyway, is an indictment of the process and its management. It will be interesting to see how the Highland Main Line issue is resolved - Being cynical, perhaps a way to abandon the through London service will be found and the problem will then disappear ?

 

The Scots will fight tooth, nail and sporran to keep their through services to England.  Indeed a second Inverness train has been asked for at times which some suggestions argue might be run via Aberdeen rather than via Perth to give new direct links.  I doubt we shall see any reduction in direct services for as long as Edinburgh and Scotrail support railways in general.

 

Yes a new train should improve on the old but remember these trains were not intended to be run on diesel except in a few areas and (for those nominally all-electric sets) as a "last-mile" emergency power source.  The GWR electrification has been significantly scaled back which has impacted upon the need to use diesel traction for most of the journey in the south-west.  The East Coast units should have been thoroughly tested at every stage of design to establish whether they could in fact cope with the Highland Main under all predictable conditions.  The latter appears to have not been done.

 

At least there will be no more acceptance on the East Coast until the many issues start to be ironed out and there is no pressing need to cascade the existing HST and Mk4 stock.  Unlike GWR who might feel themselves to have been short-changed (at best) by having to release HSTs in exchange for unproven and barely-tested new trains which are clearly failing to meet operational and customer service needs across the board.

[nightstar.train]

At least there will be no more acceptance on the East Coast until the many issues start to be ironed out and there is no pressing need to cascade the existing HST and Mk4 stock.  .

Except they only have a 384 days in which to make the HSTs PRM compliant. Which isn’t going to happen. So they’ll either have to get a derogation, which might be possible, or find another way.

 

I have no idea what the delivery schedule is for the ECML sets. Are the bi-mode sets coming first or last? As they’re needed to replace the HSTs more than the electric sets are needed to replace the Mk4s. Although of course if they’re banned up to Inverness (and Aberdeen?), then it becomes a bit of a moot point. Anyway I expect some very red faces at the DfT and Hitachi, and lots of carefully worded statements that don’t admit anything and try and pass the blame off somewhere else.

[Gwiwer]

Derogation with limited operation is my bet.  Only permitted on services which run off-juice not on the all-electric Edinburgh - KGX turns which neatly complete a day's roster.  Which will be interesting, a little troublesome, but manageable with a fair wind.

[nightstar.train]

Derogation with limited operation is my bet.  Only permitted on services which run off-juice not on the all-electric Edinburgh - KGX turns which neatly complete a day's roster.  Which will be interesting, a little troublesome, but manageable with a fair wind.

Speaking of HSTs and derogations, what on earth is happening with the MML? There’s was talk that they’d get Mk4s to operate between HST power cars as a PRM compliant stop gap until new units arrive in 2022 or so. So they may be relying on the Azumas being introduced to allow Mk4s to cascade.

 

And the Welsh franchise is waiting for 3 sets of Mk4s to operate the WAG express in a PRM compliant way. (Pity the new livery is so uninspired, I was excited to model that train).

['CHARD]

I have no idea what the delivery schedule is for the ECML sets. Are the bi-mode sets coming first or last? 

 

Original delivery plan:

 

1. EC Bi 9-car (trains 58 - 70, August - November 2018)
2. EC elec 5-car (trains 71 - 82, November 2018 - February 2019)
3. EC Bi 5-car (trains 83 - 92, February - April 2019)
4. EC elec 9-car (trains 93 - 122, May 2019 - February 2020)

Source: East Coast Franchise Agreement - public domain document

 

Derogation with limited operation is my bet.  

 

Agreed.

[nightstar.train]

So IF they get the EM issues and ladder issues sorted out so the trains get certified, and IF they uprate the engines to allow the Azumas to get to Inverness at more than a crawl, then the sets needed to replace the HSTs will be delivered first. It’s possible they’ll manage to get rid of the HSTs by the end of next year.

[The Stationmaster]

First trip today on a 9 car version, in fact two trips on 9 car trains including The Cheltenham Flyer Spa Express starting train.  On both trips in what is presumably classified as a Motor Trailer First in proper railway terminology.

 

The bad points - a lot of vibration and bits making 'I'm not entirely securely screwed on' noises when leaving Reading on electric heading over the flyover, I presume a fair bit of power was being put down as acceleration was good but the ride/vibration was not.  overall the ride remains unimpresssive and at times downright bad, even on almost new railway between Kemble and Swindon.  The table leg at the 4 seat bays appears to have been designed in Japan and interfaces somewhat uncomfortably with a the legs of an adult male of mature years, especially when trying to get out from the window seat.  The reservation indicator lights weren't working on either of the two sets I travelled on and both sets were the wrong way round.

 

The good points - the small fold-up table at the airline style seats is excellent although both they and the large tables have surfaces which are not ideal for quick overnight train cleaning but you can't have that and a 'nice' surface alas.   The seats were quite comfortable, or I've got used to them (probably a mixture of both.  At seat service in one direction was fair, in the other it was excellent (but the train was a lot emptier).

 

I'm not at all sure what happened at Steventon on the Down trip w as progress was distinctly pedestrian between Steventon and, roughly, Lockinge although any acceleration after that was not entirely helped by a signal failure of some description between Wantage Road and Circourt which brought us to a dead stand.  In the Up direction Steventon was dealt with without any noticeable problems.  On both trains changeover between modes took place at Swindon and all the 80X trains I saw at Swindon were running on electric east thereof.

 

So still something of a curate's egg for me.  the interior ambience is an improvement on GWR's current HST interior and the seat coverings are way ahead of the leather used by GWR in 1st Class but the vibration and riding remain areas which seem like a step backwards  compared with HSTs.  According to RTT the train lost half a minute on net running times between Kemble and Swindon with a clear run, I didn't bother to time it on the watch but we made a good start from Kemble but then nothing exciting, in fact for a run of just over 13 miles the train was only about 2 minutes quicker than a run I timed behind a 'Castle' during GW150 - but it only had a 7 coach load.

[royaloak]

They run on diesel between Morton Cutting/ Didcot and Causeway LC due to that poxy bridge, then electric from Causeway to Swindon.

[exet1095]

First trip today on a 9 car version, in fact two trips on 9 car trains including The Cheltenham Flyer Spa Express starting train. On both trips in what is presumably classified as a Motor Trailer First in proper railway terminology.

 

The bad points - a lot of vibration and bits making 'I'm not entirely securely screwed on' noises when leaving Reading on electric heading over the flyover, I presume a fair bit of power was being put down as acceleration was good but the ride/vibration was not. overall the ride remains unimpresssive and at times downright bad, even on almost new railway between Kemble and Swindon. The table leg at the 4 seat bays appears to have been designed in Japan and interfaces somewhat uncomfortably with a the legs of an adult male of mature years, especially when trying to get out from the window seat. The reservation indicator lights weren't working on either of the two sets I travelled on and both sets were the wrong way round.

 

The good points - the small fold-up table at the airline style seats is excellent although both they and the large tables have surfaces which are not ideal for quick overnight train cleaning but you can't have that and a 'nice' surface alas. The seats were quite comfortable, or I've got used to them (probably a mixture of both. At seat service in one direction was fair, in the other it was excellent (but the train was a lot emptier).

 

I'm not at all sure what happened at Steventon on the Down trip w as progress was distinctly pedestrian between Steventon and, roughly, Lockinge although any acceleration after that was not entirely helped by a signal failure of some description between Wantage Road and Circourt which brought us to a dead stand. In the Up direction Steventon was dealt with without any noticeable problems. On both trains changeover between modes took place at Swindon and all the 80X trains I saw at Swindon were running on electric east thereof.

 

So still something of a curate's egg for me. the interior ambience is an improvement on GWR's current HST interior and the seat coverings are way ahead of the leather used by GWR in 1st Class but the vibration and riding remain areas which seem like a step backwards compared with HSTs. According to RTT the train lost half a minute on net running times between Kemble and Swindon with a clear run, I didn't bother to time it on the watch but we made a good start from Kemble but then nothing exciting, in fact for a run of just over 13 miles the train was only about 2 minutes quicker than a run I timed behind a 'Castle' during GW150 - but it only had a 7 coach load.

Perhaps you should try standard class before pronouncing on the seats. Those of us who have to pay for our own tickets are getting a very poor seat indeed.

First trip today on a 9 car version, in fact two trips on 9 car trains including The Cheltenham Flyer Spa Express starting train. On both trips in what is presumably classified as a Motor Trailer First in proper railway terminology.

 

The bad points - a lot of vibration and bits making 'I'm not entirely securely screwed on' noises when leaving Reading on electric heading over the flyover, I presume a fair bit of power was being put down as acceleration was good but the ride/vibration was not. overall the ride remains unimpresssive and at times downright bad, even on almost new railway between Kemble and Swindon. The table leg at the 4 seat bays appears to have been designed in Japan and interfaces somewhat uncomfortably with a the legs of an adult male of mature years, especially when trying to get out from the window seat. The reservation indicator lights weren't working on either of the two sets I travelled on and both sets were the wrong way round.

 

The good points - the small fold-up table at the airline style seats is excellent although both they and the large tables have surfaces which are not ideal for quick overnight train cleaning but you can't have that and a 'nice' surface alas. The seats were quite comfortable, or I've got used to them (probably a mixture of both. At seat service in one direction was fair, in the other it was excellent (but the train was a lot emptier).

 

I'm not at all sure what happened at Steventon on the Down trip w as progress was distinctly pedestrian between Steventon and, roughly, Lockinge although any acceleration after that was not entirely helped by a signal failure of some description between Wantage Road and Circourt which brought us to a dead stand. In the Up direction Steventon was dealt with without any noticeable problems. On both trains changeover between modes took place at Swindon and all the 80X trains I saw at Swindon were running on electric east thereof.

 

So still something of a curate's egg for me. the interior ambience is an improvement on GWR's current HST interior and the seat coverings are way ahead of the leather used by GWR in 1st Class but the vibration and riding remain areas which seem like a step backwards compared with HSTs. According to RTT the train lost half a minute on net running times between Kemble and Swindon with a clear run, I didn't bother to time it on the watch but we made a good start from Kemble but then nothing exciting, in fact for a run of just over 13 miles the train was only about 2 minutes quicker than a run I timed behind a 'Castle' during GW150 - but it only had a 7 coach load.

Perhaps you should try standard class before pronouncing on the seats. Those of us who have to pay for our own tickets are getting a very poor seat indeed.

[Coryton]

Perhaps you should try standard class before pronouncing on the seats. Those of us who have to pay for our own tickets are getting a very poor seat indeed.

 

Subjective I think.

 

I found them hard at first but otherwise fine.

 

On more recent trips they haven't bothered me at all. Possibly they have softened up a bit under use, or maybe I've got used to them.

 

And I really appreciate the fact that they aren't as high-backed as has become common these days. It makes the interior seem much more pleasant to me.

[Gwiwer]

I am not privileged (in any sense of that word) to be able to enjoy first class travel under normal circumstances. My acquaintance with the seating on 8xx remains firmly (in every sense of that word) in standard class.

 

Whether through a combination of ride quality and upholstery or perhaps only the latter I find these things utterly uncomfortable. Not perhaps quite as bad as the ironing-boards supplied for the use of customers travelling on class 345 and 387 units (and elsewhere away from GWR metals) which are also high-backed and narrow but certainly not adequate for journey times of up to six hours.

 

The GWR HST seating is far from ideal but would probably have been so had lower seat-backs been used.

 

Personal experience and comfort thresholds differ. But I remain of the opinion that the present generation of seating will do nothing to encourage repeat business nor renewal of season tickets when the private car is far more comfortable, can be more convenient and is usually more reliable given the miles-per-stuff-up on the railway at present, be it train failure, NR fault or something else.

 

We need to win car users to rail, not do everything possible to send rail users back to their cars.

['CHARD]

We need to win car users to rail, not do everything possible to send rail users back to their cars.

 

I've relatively recently given up rail as my regular commute.  Price, predictability, proximity, comfort/ ambience, cleanliness, and convenience are all generally better.  I am a railway manager, but don't have any travel privileges these days and a season-ticket doesn't wash its face compared to daily return tickets either.  Add to that a change of trains each way and the fact that the return commute is frequently unpredictable or dislocated because it's the NE-SW axis at the back-end of the operating day, and there's really no contest.  It can only have been a sense of industry loyalty that kept me a regular customer for six years.

[phil-b259]

We need to win car users to rail, not do everything possible to send rail users back to their cars.

 

Given how much money needs to be spent on railway upgrades to cope with increased passengers, I'm sure that pushing folk back into their cars will go down quite well at the DfT. More tax revenues for HM Treasury, plus of course the DfT have their wonderful ' Smart Motorway' programme to create extra capacity (already happening on the M4 between the M25 and Reading) for all those extra vehicles.....

[Covkid]

So IF they get the EM issues and ladder issues sorted out so the trains get certified, and IF they uprate the engines to allow the Azumas to get to Inverness at more than a crawl, then the sets needed to replace the HSTs will be delivered first. It’s possible they’ll manage to get rid of the HSTs by the end of next year.

 

Not sure what the outcome will be of the Inverness services on LNER but I don't think it is anything more serious than contractual issues between DfT and Agility (East). DfT have expensively resolved the issues on GWR and I believe all their class 800 and 802 have the same engines and fuel tanks. It is matter of the software settings which could be tweaked, apparently even remotely, although the rheo packs are only fitted to the 802s on the GWR.

 

Therefore it is probably possible for Hitachi to remotely upgrade the software of the 800xxx on the Highland Chieftain, whilst stood in Edinburgh Waverley. or even Stirling.  This would allow the train to perform to class 802 standards on it's journey to Inverness and back.   This would not be beneficial to Hitachi because every 24 hours a member of the class 800 fleet would be having it's engines pushed to a higher level, ultimately requiring servicing sooner. I doubt it is an insurmountable problem though.;

[Covkid]

 

Original delivery plan:

 

1. EC Bi 9-car (trains 58 - 70, August - November 2018)
2. EC elec 5-car (trains 71 - 82, November 2018 - February 2019)
3. EC Bi 5-car (trains 83 - 92, February - April 2019)
4. EC elec 9-car (trains 93 - 122, May 2019 - February 2020)

Source: East Coast Franchise Agreement - public domain document

 

 

Thanks for this "Chard". To some degree it follows the same poor plan on the GWR where the 36 five car units were mostly commissioned first, to replace full length 2+8 HSTs, albeit also losing the five 180s too. In my view Hitachi should have built, deliveed and commissioned the 9 car IETs first so that every new train would replace an old train, but with even more seats per train. Instead of that GWR have been trying to run 2+5 IETs with mixed results. Two lots of seat reservations with tewo lots of first class probably at odds with the booked formation.

 

Assuming LNER 9 car sets 58-70 replace the LNER 2+9 HSTs, but then the next lot of deliveries are five car 801s to replace 9 car HSTs or 9 car Mk4 sets.

 

Spot the similarity with the GWR trains ?

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps you should try standard class before pronouncing on the seats. Those of us who have to pay for our own tickets are getting a very poor seat indeed.

 

Perhaps you should try standard class before pronouncing on the seats. Those of us who have to pay for our own tickets are getting a very poor seat indeed.

 

Who says  haven't tried them?

I've relatively recently given up rail as my regular commute.  Price, predictability, proximity, comfort/ ambience, cleanliness, and convenience are all generally better.  I am a railway manager, but don't have any travel privileges these days and a season-ticket doesn't wash its face compared to daily return tickets either.  Add to that a change of trains each way and the fact that the return commute is frequently unpredictable or dislocated because it's the NE-SW axis at the back-end of the operating day, and there's really no contest.  It can only have been a sense of industry loyalty that kept me a regular customer for six years.

 

Absolutely understandable and I suspect that within the industry today it is only those who do have some sort of travel facilities or are commuting into some of the large conurbations who do use rail.  i certainly get the impression that some senior NR people don't although a former Chairman of that concern did commute regularly using our local branch line and the connecting GWML at one time.  For many of us in the railway industry in the past we simply didn't have the choice because pay in the industry was generally much lower than it is today and of course we tended to live in locations that made commuting to work by train the best proposition.

 

As far as Phil's comment about driving passengers away is concerned I think there could almost be an element of truth in it and there is certainly a practical element of truth in it as a larger part of railway financing is moved from subsidy to the fare box.  as far as the trains themselves are concerned I think the situation is more mixed where we are basically facing a perceived answer of creating more seats in newer trains by reducing the size of said seats as well as other dodges such as not providing as many seats per foot/metre length of train (as with Crossrail's approach to the job).  Whether it is a deliberate policy to discourage rail travel is very debatable but it is worth pointing out that Class 80X trains will be used by at least one open access operator who has neither state subsidy nor DafT imposition regarding the trains it has chosen to order.

[Gwiwer]

Given how much money needs to be spent on railway upgrades to cope with increased passengers, I'm sure that pushing folk back into their cars will go down quite well at the DfT. More tax revenues for HM Treasury, plus of course the DfT have their wonderful ' Smart Motorway' programme to create extra capacity (already happening on the M4 between the M25 and Reading) for all those extra vehicles.....

 

An arguably fair point.  But - and acknowledging that this is not a campaigning site nor topic - if we go down that road (pun intended) where do we stop?  We have witnessed an unprecedented boom in rail use which has been the driver behind numerous modernisation schemes.  If all of that goes down the drain we end up with badly clogged roads, increased road trauma toll and potentially every TOC making a substantial loss and handing back the keys.

 

That might be an over-dramatisation.  But we don't know.  It would be to the industry's benefit to retain custom not drive it away no matter what agenda the Government might be working from.

[The Stationmaster]

Not sure what the outcome will be of the Inverness services on LNER but I don't think it is anything more serious than contractual issues between DfT and Agility (East). DfT have expensively resolved the issues on GWR and I believe all their class 800 and 802 have the same engines and fuel tanks. It is matter of the software settings which could be tweaked, apparently even remotely, although the rheo packs are only fitted to the 802s on the GWR.

 

Therefore it is probably possible for Hitachi to remotely upgrade the software of the 800xxx on the Highland Chieftain, whilst stood in Edinburgh Waverley. or even Stirling.  This would allow the train to perform to class 802 standards on it's journey to Inverness and back.   This would not be beneficial to Hitachi because every 24 hours a member of the class 800 fleet would be having it's engines pushed to a higher level, ultimately requiring servicing sooner. I doubt it is an insurmountable problem though.;

Which assumes the Class 802 can cut the mustard on the Highland mainline whereas various reports in this thread are suggesting they can't hack it in Devon and Cornwall.  At the end of the day the laws of physics, and much past railway experience, tend to suggest that sheer horsepower (and getting it onto the railhead) is the best way of tackling long and/or steep gradients.

[Ken.W]

Not sure what the outcome will be of the Inverness services on LNER but I don't think it is anything more serious than contractual issues between DfT and Agility (East). DfT have expensively resolved the issues on GWR and I believe all their class 800 and 802 have the same engines and fuel tanks. It is matter of the software settings which could be tweaked, apparently even remotely, although the rheo packs are only fitted to the 802s on the GWR.

 

Therefore it is probably possible for Hitachi to remotely upgrade the software of the 800xxx on the Highland Chieftain, whilst stood in Edinburgh Waverley. or even Stirling.  This would allow the train to perform to class 802 standards on it's journey to Inverness and back.   This would not be beneficial to Hitachi because every 24 hours a member of the class 800 fleet would be having it's engines pushed to a higher level, ultimately requiring servicing sooner. I doubt it is an insurmountable problem though.;

I'm afraid it's more than just contractual issues.

 

To start with, there's the ORR embargo on any of the sets even entering service at present. The signalling interference, climbable connecting cables and other unspecified issues need to be resolved first before any of them can be introduced.

 

The GWR sets were uprated, I believe before construction, due to the failure to complete the electrification, there's no such issue with the LNER sets, they're being built as specified and the routes are as they were intended to be. The LNER sets are already built awaiting introduction or under construction with the engines at the original rating and with the small fuel tanks. I've heard the larger tanks with additional fuel load would also require suspension modifications. So modifications now would be even more expensive than for GWR.

As changing the engine rating would requirean update to the train's TMS software, I very much doubt this could be done in service, or be advisable even if it was. Besides, they'd still have the small tanks.

 

The scale of the problem on the Highland Main Line, I posted previously the test run of the 800 was around 20mph slower than the HSTs on the climbs, well to put that in perspective that's around a one third reduction of speed.

So while one of these things is ambling up the hill, the Scotrail with their shortened HSTs will be flying up the other way and booked to pass at some point..

and make no mistake, north of the border Scotrail always takes priority!

So if one of the trains isn't going to make it's booked passing point to time, guess which one gets held?

On the HML, what we're talking about is, first of all Slochd, at 1,315ft (401m), only about 20 mile from a standing start from virtually sea level at Inverness, averaging around 1 in 60.

Then after Aviemore comes Drumochter...

at 1480ft (452m)....

only the highest point of the National Rail Network!! How the h**k did no-one see that???

 

Meanwhile, the clocks still ticking on the LNER HSTs, with apparently no workshop capacity, or now the time, to convert them.

Would a derogation to allow them to continue beyond 2019 even be possible? As I understand it, the PRM compliance is a statutory deadline, and possibly an EU regulation?

[caradoc]

Interesting points Ken W but I have to disagree with the assertion that 'north of the border Scotrail always takes priority!' When I worked in Network Rail Scotland Route Control we received complaints from Scotrail that their trains had been held for other operators' late running services, and vice versa - We reckoned that if the proportion of complaints roughly balanced out we were treaing every operator as fairly as possible !

[bimble]

Meanwhile, the clocks still ticking on the LNER HSTs, with apparently no workshop capacity, or now the time, to convert them.

Would a derogation to allow them to continue beyond 2019 even be possible? As I understand it, the PRM compliance is a statutory deadline, and possibly an EU regulation?

 

Not to get political, but after 2019, would an EU regulation really matter? Assuming we leave/on time...

[Gwiwer]

Not to get political, but after 2019, would an EU regulation really matter? Assuming we leave/on time...

As I understand it yes they do because they are pre-existing. Brexit is uncharted territory but all of those EU regulations won’t suddenly vanish.

[jjb1970]

I've relatively recently given up rail as my regular commute.  Price, predictability, proximity, comfort/ ambience, cleanliness, and convenience are all generally better.  I am a railway manager, but don't have any travel privileges these days and a season-ticket doesn't wash its face compared to daily return tickets either.  Add to that a change of trains each way and the fact that the return commute is frequently unpredictable or dislocated because it's the NE-SW axis at the back-end of the operating day, and there's really no contest.  It can only have been a sense of industry loyalty that kept me a regular customer for six years.

 

I think it's very sensitive to route and the nature of travel. I commute to work by train, living in Milton Keynes and working in the City of London rail has a de facto monopoly. For the most part it is a quick and efficient service and I think that the season ticket is fair value, but I use it five days a week plus the occasional weekend. On the other hand when I was spending two days a week in Southampton for my last employer it was far more sensible to drive as it is a pretty simple run down the A34 and to go by train meant going via London with a change of terminals etc, and the ticket cost was far too high given the times I had to travel. If commuting by rail was too much for me then ultimately it comes down to a simple choice of do I want to move closer to work or change jobs, and for all its faults I like Milton Keynes and am blessed to have a job I genuinely love so it's a good deal to commute. That said this month I changed from commuting to/from Bletchley to using Milton Keynes Central as I just got completely sick of the appalling ride of the Class 350's and decided I'd rather pay the extra and have the option of using Virgin. The Pendolino and Voyager trains are not beyond criticism but their ride is magic carpet like compared to the 350's.

 

Travelling outside of work I tend to use the car more. If you travel as a family of four the cost balance changes and also it is increasingly difficult to sit together. And modern trains aren't set up for people with luggage, every other week I have to drive the boy to ice hockey games around the country as even if the trains went where we need to go and were convenient for the ice rinks travelling on a train with an ice hocket kit bag wouldn't be much fun. Worse still, if it is somewhere nice the wife and daughter will come and we make it a weekend, travelling as a family of four with weekend bags and an ice hockey kit bag would be painful on trains I think. The result is I spend over £5k pa on a season ticket plus my employer pays another substantial chunk for business trips (primarily but not only Eurostar but almost all of my non-commuting, non-business travel is by car.

[phil-b259]

As I understand it yes they do because they are pre-existing. Brexit is uncharted territory but all of those EU regulations won’t suddenly vanish.

 

Indeed, the Government passed a bill a few months ago that ensured all current EU regulations became enshrined in domestic legislation and would thus still be effective post Brexit.

 

HOWEVER....

 

Once we leave the EU the UK government can do what it wants with said regulations* - its not legally bound to observe the rules of a body its no longer a member of! As such there is nothing to stop them removing or altering the regulations disability deadline which will have then become a purely domestic issue.

 

 

* Hence if the UK wanted to, it could quite easily change the rules and allow growth hormone stuffed Beef and chlorinated Chicken from the USA to end up on our dinner plates by amending the UK regulations accordingly so it can secure a trad deal with Trump.

[HillsideDepot]

Interesting photo HERE of 800008 working 1W00 the 08:21 Paddington to Hereford service with coupler doors open. I've not seen that before.