royaloak Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 If only it was possible to compare the travelling Chef with the current offering, but of course they were done away with a couple of years before IETs were rolled out weren't they! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted December 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2018 I would buy beforehand if there were suitable locations to do so. Large stations often have at least one outlet. Many smaller stations do not. Neither do station outlets necessarily open at hours convenient to every journey. On GWR and the ECML most trains have had on-board catering available even at 5am 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2018 If only it was possible to compare the travelling Chef with the current offering, but of course they were done away with a couple of years before IETs were rolled out weren't they! Indeed they were - under pressure from the DfT I believe who saw no future for restaurant car facilities. Given the last years of the FGW franchise was actually a management contract franchise extension what the DfT wanted they got! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 I haven't done any actual counts, but on the GWML (not the WoE, I accept) I'd say that more people stop the trolley and purchase something than previously went to the catering car. I very much doubt GWR would release the figures, but I would be interested to know how sales compare between a HST and an IET on the same work, including on the WoE when IETs are sufficiently established for numbers to have settled.Anecdotally, on cross country services I never went to the buffet, but I do sometimes get stuff from the trolley when it comes through.I may be unique, but I doubt it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 I think that on catering the attractiveness of on-board services depends on whether you are considering restaurant or buffet service. A proper meal in the restaurant car is one of life's pleasures and something everyone should try. However if looking at buffet service I would rather buy before boarding from an M&S Food, Sainsbury's etc as there is far more choice and quality I think. It certainly is a pleasure dining on a train in Thailand, not "posh" but very affordable simple and tasty Thai food, with a beer or two of course !!. As jib says one of life's pleasures https://www.seat61.com/pop-up-thai-train-menu.htm Brit15 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted December 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2018 I used the short-lived Cross Country Grill when such trains included a Mk1 RU. The crew always seemed surprised at receiving an order but the food was good and served by the steward in the restaurant car. I used the Travelling Chef service on numerous occasions and again found it invariably good. And despite having more cancellations than provisions of the advertised service I have made reasonable use of Pullman dining. I have enjoyed meals on trains in three continents and only in thd UK is this regarded as an inconvenience rather than as an essential service. And it has to be said that I have not enjoyed the meals aboard the Australian XPT which despite having a full kitchen car with large ovens only offers plastic-tray airline meals which are invariably over-cooked. The WR, BR InterCity sector and I believe GWT always offered microwaveable long shelf-life meals heated on demand. Indeed I was able to purchase stew and dumplings at 3am on the Night Riviera with a bottle of wine to boot. While that is perhaps not a run-of-the-mill order there is plenty of scope and ample demand when the product is right. A catering vehicle does not need to be provided at the cost of more than perhaps 20 seats as the Mk2 TSOB vehicles proved and as is still the case with the various sleeper lounges. Efficient rostering means sets are not always kept on long haul duties but there should be enough business offering to justify provision on a Kings Cross - Leeds or Paddington - Bristol turn between the morning and evening Edinburgh or Penzance trips 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 Indeed they were - under pressure from the DfT I believe who saw no future for restaurant car facilities. Given the last years of the FGW franchise was actually a management contract franchise extension what the DfT wanted they got! And the Travelling Chef (apparently) lost a lot of money, I mean one person cooking bacon or sausage sandwiches and being busy from start to finish is never going to make a profit is it, where as a Chef and 4 waiting staff selling full meals is going to make a fortune isnt it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2018 (edited) And the Travelling Chef (apparently) lost a lot of money, I mean one person cooking bacon or sausage sandwiches and being busy from start to finish is never going to make a profit is it, where as a Chef and 4 waiting staff selling full meals is going to make a fortune isnt it? Indeed. But it becomes obvious that if you want to shut something down you start by removing the easy money and keeping the expensive bits - which then make an even grater loss thus accelerating the 'something must be done' calls leading to closure or massive restructuring. As any city specialist knows it is very easy to make a profitable operation unprofitable by moving money between accounts / categories / subsidiaries / etc. For example you sell your profitable shop sites to a property specialist and rent them back. This Generates a nice wedge for shareholders but when the new owners hike the rents the shop profits are not enough to pay the rent so now the business becomes 'loss making'. You then sell off the chain to venture capitalists (who are still bound by those big rents so then goes bust putting folk out of work and people having to travel elsewhere to purchase items. But that doesn't matter - the prime objective (to sell off the chain and generate cash for shareholders) has been achieved. The retail sector is littered with copses where this very strategy has been used and its no wonder that if the DfT are minded to ditch catering facilities they would start by making sure that one of the remunerative divisions (a person making bacon sandwiches to order) is removed. Given what as been said a few posts ago about the layout of the kitchen on the new 800s I can see in a few years time some TOC spokesman (note as with many things it will be presented as nothing to do with the DfT of course) telling us that sadly the new kitchens are just not up to the job and its just not possible to continue the Pullman meal service..... Edited December 18, 2018 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2018 As various manufacturers of otherwise well respected engines found out during the earlier days of diesel locomotives on BR, up to and including the HSTs, one thing that engines do not like is being frequently cycled between full power and idle, and various positions in between. The thermal cycling they go through as a consequence sets up undesirable stresses in the engine that, repeated enough times, lead to cracking in the major components. Put the same engines in a boat where they run for long periods at the same power setting and they are much happier. One consequence is that diesel engines for traction use tend to be heavier and more solidly constructed. Whether Hitachi have fully appreciated that is another story; although Hitachi are experienced builders of electric locomotives, they have built relatively very little by way of diesel locomotives. Jim The concept of engine duty cycles has been understood for many decades, it is pretty important to understand the duty cycle and specify the engine appropriately. However it is not necessarily true that marine engines operate in a more benign environment as it depends on the nature of the ship. Engines in offshore vessels and DP ships face an extremely demanding operational profile with wildly fluctuating loads and even on conventional cargo ships some applications are pretty challenging. I can't speak for all engines but I've ran the calculations and done FEA modelling on four engines comparing the same configuration supplied to rail users with marine engines and in each case the marine version was heavier and the rail version failed to meet class rules. The crankshafts in particular on marine engines tend to be over built because of class rules, as a result of the critical nature of crankshaft dependability. The reason I did that work was engine builders whinging about the higher cost of marine spec engines and demanding that they be allowed to use lighter and cheaper versions of the same basic platform. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2018 It certainly is a pleasure dining on a train in Thailand, not "posh" but very affordable simple and tasty Thai food, with a beer or two of course !!. As jib says one of life's pleasures https://www.seat61.com/pop-up-thai-train-menu.htm Brit15 I remember about twenty years ago looking in the kitchen of a long distance train in China and contemplating whether eating on-board was worth the risk (it wasn't confidence inspiring to look in the kitchen.....). I decided it was worth a punt and the food was very good. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 (edited) Dinner in the diner, nothing could be finerThan to have your ham 'n' eggs in CarolinaWhen you hear the whistle blowin' eight to the barThen you know that Tennessee is not very farShovel all the coal in, gotta keep it rollin'Woo, woo, Chattanooga, there you are Bit more expensive these days -- I'll pass on the Union Pacific Calf's brains & scrambled eggs !!! Brit15 Edited December 18, 2018 by APOLLO 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2018 If only it was possible to compare the travelling Chef with the current offering, but of course they were done away with a couple of years before IETs were rolled out weren't they! I do wonder if GWR might be tempted to reintroduce it if they find they can't maintain the quality they want in their Pullman branded service. I don't doubt at all, from the chap I spoke to yesterday, that the staff commitment is there to maintain the standard and get used to providing it on the new trains and the best of luck to them in doing so and getting the technical issues resolved. But Travelling Chef would strike me as a potential realistic fallback, but assuming they can get the meals out the other course might be to offer Pullman dining in more of the 1st Class seating area. Interestingly between Exeter and Reading the Standard class catering trolley passed us three times on its way out to seek customers and looked to be well stocked. The difference between past and present in on-train buffet level service is an interesting area of debate and undoubtedly tastes and motivations vary considerably across a range of passengers and judging by the two return 'ecs trolley workings' I saw it was doing fairly good business but the real test will be in revenue and the level of passenger complaints. The point about pre-purchase at stations is of course as valid as it has been in some cases for a long time and I have on a number of occasions joined trains at Reading with a one of the excellent pasties which can be obtained from the outlet on the overbridge and outside Cornwall. Obviously smaller stations in Cornwall or on the OWW and Gloucester lines might not have any outlets but quite a lot of the stations served by GWR Class 80X trains has at least one establishment where you can buy takeaway food and it is noticeable that intending passengers buying from them is hardly a new phenomenon and certainly predates the IEP era. In fact judging by what I see on the 387s operating on 'London Division' suburban services quite a lot of passengers seem to be eating something or other purchased (obviously) before joining the train. And the Travelling Chef (apparently) lost a lot of money, I mean one person cooking bacon or sausage sandwiches and being busy from start to finish is never going to make a profit is it, where as a Chef and 4 waiting staff selling full meals is going to make a fortune isnt it? From what I saw on various trips to the West of England take-up of the Travelling Chef service was very variable but the same can be said of the Pullman service (e.g on one trip to South Wales last year there were only two of us in for breakfast and we were offered Welsh Cakes in such quantity to suggest they were trying desperately to clear their stock. Pullman meals are quite pricey but I think one possible problem with the Travelling Chef meals was that they were underpriced in relation to costs, you got a tremendous breakfast for what amounted to a bargain price. The perpetual problem with train catering however is stocking and wastage and it needs careful management and assessment of demand to make it profitable. At present I understand that GWR see Pullman catering as a sales attraction and might therefore be prepared to stand losses provided they are not excessive and they can make some good money on the best used trains. But there is I think no way the latest generations of long distance trains in Britain are going to incorporate food preparation areas in the traditional sense and the Mk 3 coach will be the last example we see of them - expensive to build and expensive to not only maintain but clean with a need for some specialist cleaning equipment and staff training to deal with it. A traditional kitchen area - even in a Mk3 - needed the better part of a day out of service at regular intervals for deep cleaning, Mk 1 vehicles needed several days as a lot of the kitchen had to be stripped out for chemical bath cleaning. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Richard E Posted December 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2018 Seeing discussion of on train catering vs 'station' catering reminds me that a pastie/hot food counter appeared on Peterborough station about 18 months ago in a 'pop up' unit near the main entrance doors. I now wonder how much this was in anticipation of IET introduction rather than filling an immediate need. Having said that it certainly seems to do a good trade when I have been able to observe it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted December 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2018 (edited) With reference to this on train dining, maybe we are looking at things through rose tinted spectacles? Shock horror etc. I can understand the pleasure of silver service dining on trains as I actually indulged in that just once or twice, way, way back and it was excellent. However, times were different in the late 60s and I believe that the modern (and maybe younger working) traveller is different. They want to get to places fast and comfortably and have space to relax, work, communicate (not with others usually), read, listen or whatever suits them (yes, just them). If folk want a premier dining experience then let that be a special event on steam hauled stuff such as the Belmond Pullman and let's extend that away from the Commuter belt of Surrey if you don't mind. Business/First Class, as it has been, is perhaps becoming outmoded, other than to avoid the 'other' travellers and especially Stag and Hen parties ? Should the expectation be to just have really decent 'snacks' and free drinks served at seat/table, in a plush environment where maybe things are a little less 'cosmopolitan' and the security guards prevent the 'other travellers' from 'creating discomfort' ? If travellers of either 'class' know that there is limited on board catering, then they can bring their own scoffing items even if it's Smoked Salmon with Artisan Bread purchased elsewhere? I also think that the Trolly service could be replaced if it is a chore to get the thing through the train, with the well stocked non perishable foodstuff (other than fruit) style Buffet, with the option to have something brought to the seat of less mobile customers (oh how I hate that word in relation to folk on trains). Good on train Staff Management could cope with that, if training was modified? What happens on two 5 car sets I have no idea and I'm sure the TOC will not tolerate two Buffets? Perhaps the style of travel on these mainline services is due to change, but will that be for the better? Maybe some Open Access operators can establish some sort of prestige services at peak times, aimed at business class and using sensible stock where dining service is not so damn difficult? Pairs of 68s with Mk4s anyone? Just my ramblings after reading the above. Phil Edited December 19, 2018 by Mallard60022 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted December 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2018 Oh for the good old days of train travel with a bag of jam butties, a penguin (chocolate variety !!) and a bottle of tizer !!!!! Brit15 On our school trips (1960s), we used to collect packed lunches prepared by BR. They included pork pies (I don't remember the brand but unpopular with many), KiaOra juice and Lyons Fruit Pies. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Bowyers pork pies ? Some had done the journey from Newcastle to Bristol a couple of dozen times I seem to remember !! Remember this ? Look what you get when you (used to) travel by train (as well as copping the Brush 4 !!). The old days ----- Even David Bowie & Mick Ronson liked to tuck in on the train Brit15 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted December 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2018 When travelling between Plymouth and Exeter, usually Cross Country, the trolley can't get through the train, due to it being very nearly rammed and it's one hell of job to get to it and back to my seat before it's time to get off. I no longer bother with on train catering on the way up and have normally imbibed enough beer in the Great Western hotel, as not to need further liquid refreshment on the return journey. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium HillsideDepot Posted December 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2018 Tweet by Richard Clinnick As of today @GWRHelp has accepted all 57 @HitachiRailEU Class 800s for passenger use. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 (edited) For those with access. As I had not previously been a member I attempted to sign up. 24 hours later I have yet to receive an activation email. Oops I didnt realise you had to sign up to view, I will pinch oops I mean copy and paste them. Edited December 19, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 (edited) Remaining HST diagrams, thanks to 180106 on WNXXforum for taking the time to type them up- These are the LTPs for remaining HST turns. SXIW11A71 04.51 Plymouth - Paddington1C74 09.03 Paddington - Plymouth1A87 12.55 Plymouth - Paddington1C90 17.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW21A82 09.00 Penzance - Paddington1C86 15.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW31A79 06.47 Penzance - Paddington1C82 13.03 Paddington - Plymouth1A96 16.57 Plymouth - Paddington1C98 21.03 Paddington - PlymouthIW42T04 07.06 Newton Abbot - Paignton1A12 07.48 Paignton - Paddington1C81 12.33 Paddington - Taunton1A89 15.33 Taunton - Paddington1C93 18.33 Paddington - Exeter SDIW51A72 05.53 Plymouth - Paddington1D20 09.50 Paddington - Oxford1P26 12.01 Oxford - Paddington(ECS to Reading TCD & stable)(ECS back to Paddington)1C91 17.33 Paddington - Paignton2A65 21.35 Paignton - Newton AbbotIW61C40 07.02 Plymouth - Penzance1A85 10.00 Penzance - Paddington1C88 16.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW71A81 07.41 Penzance - Paddington1C84 14.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW81A75 05.05 Penzance - Paddington1C78 11.03 Paddington - Plymouth1A91 15.00 Plymouth - Paddington1C94 19.03 Paddington - PlymouthIW91A31 19.30 Bristol TM - Paddington1W42 21.48 Paddington - Worcester SHIW101P04 05.11 Worcester SH - Paddington1K04 08.06 Paddington - Newbury1K11 09.23 Newbury - Paddington1B27 11.15 Paddington - Cardiff1L65 13.56 Cardiff - Paddington1C23 17.00 Paddington - Bristol TMIW111A06 06.20 Weston SM - Paddington1C08 09.30 Paddington - Bristol TM1A16 12.00 Bristol TM - Paddington1B42 14.15 Paddington - Cardiff1L82 16.56 Cardiff - Paddington1C28 19.30 Paddington - Weston SMIW121A02 05.30 Bristol TM - Paddington1B10 07.45 Paddington - Swansea1L55 11.29 Swansea - Paddington1C19 15.00 Paddington - Bristol TM1A26 17.00 Bristol TM - Paddington1U28 19.12 Paddington - Bristol TMIW131A70 06.05 Frome - Paddington1C06 08.30 Paddington - Bristol TM1A14 11.00 Bristol TM - Paddington1W27 13.22 Paddington - Worcester FS1P37 15.51 Worcester FS - Paddington1W03 18.22 Paddington - HerefordSOIW11A78 06.50 Penzance - Paddington1C84 13.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW21A85 10.58 Penzance - Paddington1C89 17.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW31A83 10.00 Penzance - Paddington1C87 16.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW41A75 05.40 Plymouth - Paddington1C77 10.03 Paddington - Penzance1A94 15.52 Penzance - Paddington1C33 22.35 Paddington - Bristol TMIW51A76 06.57 Plymouth - Paddington1C79 11.03 Paddington - Plymouth1A89 15.01 Plymouth - Paddington1C95 19.03 Paddington - PlymouthIW61A15 09.18 Paignton - Paddington1G38 14.15 Paddington - Cheltenham1L85 17.00 Cheltenham - Paddington1C28 19.31 Paddington - Bristol TMIW71A80 07.59 Penzance - Paddington1C85 14.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW81A92 16.56 Plymouth - Paddington1C32 21.32 Paddington - Bristol TMIW91B03 06.45 Bristol TM - Swansea1L48 09.29 Swansea - Paddington1C16 13.30 Paddington - Bristol TM1A24 16.00 Bristol TM - Paddington1C92 18.03 Paddington - PenzanceIW101L28 07.31 Cheltenham - Paddington1G21 10.15 Paddington - Cheltenham1L58 13.00 Cheltenham - Paddington1C22 16.30 Paddington - Paignton2E57 20.44 Paignton - Exeter SDIW121A06 06.23 Weston SM - Paddington1W21 09.22 Paddington - Worcester FS1P47 12.06 Worcester FS - Paddington1D43 14.52 Paddington - Oxford1P63 17.02 Oxford - Paddington1W08 18.22 Paddington - HerefordNote that STP diagrams will alter this as required from week to week and are subject to change on the day. These should be good until the 11th Feb when SX IW11 to 13 switch to IET followed by SX IW 8 to 10 on the 11th March as Clarence Yard put on the other place. Sundays change so much from week to week so can't really help thereHopefully this will help those who want their last bit of HST fix to plan somewhat Edited December 20, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 I do wonder if GWR might be tempted to reintroduce it if they find they can't maintain the quality they want in their Pullman branded service. From what I saw on various trips to the West of England take-up of the Travelling Chef service was very variable Remember both the Travelling Chef and Pullman are going to be busy in one direction and quiet in the other as they return to their home depot, the one I caught the most was the 0553 off Plymouth and he was busy from start of service until just before Reading, of course his 'home' trip (1003 off PAD I think it was) would have been very quiet, the same for the ones working up around lunch time for their busy trip down in the evening. It wont be re-introduced because either the Standard Class passengers would have to go through 1ST Class to get served, or all the food will have to be walked through 1ST Class to serve the Standard Class passengers, neither is going to be acceptable, the Travelling Chef is done due to the position of the food prep area on the IETs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2018 When travelling between Plymouth and Exeter, usually Cross Country, the trolley can't get through the train, due to it being very nearly rammed and it's one hell of job to get to it and back to my seat before it's time to get off. I no longer bother with on train catering on the way up and have normally imbibed enough beer in the Great Western hotel, as not to need further liquid refreshment on the return journey. And if you are a Whitehall mandarin you use the low revenue to say say that passengers don’t use the trolley service so it should be axed. As I said earlier if you are a sufficiently ‘tallented’ been counter managing statistic to support a pre-determined objective is easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Q: What's green, long and can be used for making meals? A: A Cucumber. Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 20, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2018 Tweet by Richard Clinnick All they need now is to have them fully working in the correct diagrams the right way round. Presumably Hitachi are now on the full contract for supplying the correct number of diagrams each day? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted December 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) LNER says that Azuma launch is in February 19 on London, Leeds and Hull(?) services. Then on from March, 5 Units per month until all in service. Great fun. P Edited December 20, 2018 by Mallard60022 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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