Class 800 - Updates

['CHARD]

LNER says that Azuma launch is in February 19 on London, Leeds  and Hull(?) services. Then on from March, 5 Units per month until all in service.

Great fun.

P

 

Contractually, there should have been 25 sets delivered at that date:

 

EC 9-car sets 58 - 70 and

EC 5-car sets 71 - 82 

 

Not sure how close the schedule will have been recovered back to that profile, by then....

[DavidB]

At the risk of being shot down by those in the know (Royal Oak - I'm looking at you), I've noticed a change in the way that GW drivers seem to be putting the brake in on the 80xs compared to the HSTs. Back in the pre-defensive-driving days, drivers often used their skill on the brake to regain time (and very skilled some of them were). For the last decade or so on the former WR, braking has generally been very cautious and I've been used to early braking, followed by a gentle stroll along the full length of platforms at little more than 20mph before stopping. But the way that drivers are now using the brake on the 80xs looks and feels different, with much faster entries into platforms followed by rapid and smooth stops. I'm wondering whether this is a) an illusion and I'm just plain wrong; or b) whether it's a change of policy to improve timekeeping after a pretty dire few months for High Speed Services on GW; or c) whether the braking performance of the 80xs is simply different from the HSTs. Whatever the reason, the new trains are putting up some very impressive performances with the sharper braking performance, with 11 mins start-to-stop now the norm over the 17 miles between Reading and Didcot.

 

David

[jamie92208]

Just a quick and non scientific set of observations today at Paddington in the august company of Stationmaster Mike.   6 IET's of classes 800/1, 800/3 and 802 were seen coming in from the west and 5 of them were on Electric power.   I dodn't make a note of the train formations but the one 2 X 5 set where I did look, the two first class areas were next to each other in the middle of the rake.   The one set on diesel power was made up of 800 023 and 800 005.   This was between 14.30 and 1510.

 

Jamie

[TravisM]

LNER says that Azuma launch is in February 19 on London, Leeds  and Hull(?) services. Then on from March, 5 Units per month until all in service.

Great fun.

P

I think I will be blue in the face for holding my breath that long!

[royaloak]

At the risk of being shot down by those in the know (Royal Oak - I'm looking at you),

Okay I will leave it to the others to answer.

[Ken.W]

LNER says that Azuma launch is in February 19 on London, Leeds  and Hull(?) services

 

Do they? Thanks

The Leeds / Hull working was always scheduled to be first, as it replaces that non-standard HST set still with ex-BR/EMT interior that’s normally meant to be kept to that work.

 

Not sure how close the schedule will have been recovered back to that profile, by then....

Or how the crew training will have recovered after Hitachi put their toys back in the box. Certainly not re-starting now till after New Year

[Zomboid]

It'll be fun to see if the sets will be facing the right direction as often as the GWR ones are.

 

Hopefully they'll be able to keep up away from the wires on the Hull line. (Related - Is Harrogate in any way hilly and likely to embarrass the DfTs specification?)

[31A]

It'll be fun to see if the sets will be facing the right direction as often as the GWR ones are.

 

Hopefully they'll be able to keep up away from the wires on the Hull line. (Related - Is Harrogate in any way hilly and likely to embarrass the DfTs specification?)

 

Quite a climb from Armley Junction through Horsforth to Bramhope Tunnel - 1 in 100 springs to mind - it certainly made the steam locos work hard when the Scarborough Spa Express ran that way!

[Ken.W]

 - 1 in 100 springs to mind -

 

They'll probably need a banker then!

[rodent279]

A long time ago, in the late 1970s to be precise, I was involved in testing London Underground's first "proper " DC chopper traction equipment. Needless to say, the Signal Engineer was, shall we say, a little concerned that AC interference from the traction equipment would upset the signalling. There was a lot of testing, and eventually it emerged that that trains with the standard camshaft equipment emitted more electrical noise than the chopper equipment.

 

During all this time, we quietly mused on the fact that the Metadyne equipment on the O and P stock was well known for causing signal aspects to "bob", and the C69 stock, if there was an earth fault on one of the traction motors, they would generate track circuit frequency almost every time they started and stopped in the course of each inter-station run. Neither ended up being stopped on account of signalling interference.

 

By the time we were allowed to run our unit in service, the Signal Engineer insisted that it carried an expensively engineered fail-safe frequency monitor. Like the similar equipment used by BR on the Networkers, it turned out to be better at finding substation faults.

 

Jim

I love reviving old posts!

 

Without getting too technical, in what way were the camshaft controllers noisier than chopper controllers? Was it the emissions bandwidth or the amplitude?

[rodent279]

Just a quick and non scientific set of observations today at Paddington in the august company of Stationmaster Mike. 6 IET's of classes 800/1, 800/3 and 802 were seen coming in from the west and 5 of them were on Electric power. I dodn't make a note of the train formations but the one 2 X 5 set where I did look, the two first class areas were next to each other in the middle of the rake. The one set on diesel power was made up of 800 023 and 800 005. This was between 14.30 and 1510.

 

Jamie

I have yet to experience an 80x on electric. Admittedly, I've only been west of BTM twice in one, in Sept and late Nov, but each time is Beeb diesel all the way to Padd. I'm looking forward to experiencing this quick acceleration.

On a related note, the performance of DB class 101+8 coaches is pretty smart. Observing one at Berlin Ostbahnhof leaving from a standing start, by the time the last vehicle passed by, it was doing around 60km/h.

[The Stationmaster]

Just a quick and non scientific set of observations today at Paddington in the august company of Stationmaster Mike.   6 IET's of classes 800/1, 800/3 and 802 were seen coming in from the west and 5 of them were on Electric power.   I dodn't make a note of the train formations but the one 2 X 5 set where I did look, the two first class areas were next to each other in the middle of the rake.   The one set on diesel power was made up of 800 023 and 800 005.   This was between 14.30 and 1510.

 

Jamie

 

Fortunately the 9 car set on which I returned to Reading was running on electricity although still the wrong way round (which worked to my advantage as it happens as I had a tightish connection at Reading).  Referring to David B's comments above it was b noticeable that the approach to Reading was quite straightforward and to time having gained a bit from Kennet Bridge to Reading Main line East although in my view the booked times were generous at 25 minutes allowed start to stop, definitely a fast run to Iver (gaining a minute on booked time) but later much more pedestrian although running into Reading at a decent pace.  However once again I do wonder about the offsets which impact the times in RTT

 

The journey up in the morning on 2x5 car was on diesel but there were a couple of minutes of gash time so it arrived Paddington punctually.  That was considerably better however than a somewhat poorly looking 802 010 from which passengers were being rapidly detrained at Reading (presumably the 07.29 Swansea notwithstanding the set number?) which according to RTT later made a miraculous recovery and according to RTT left Reading 17.5 minutes late and arrived Paddington 5.5 minutes late with 23 minutes running time for one of the most inflated running schedules I have seen fora. long time; it's  booked average speed is just above 60mph start to stop   

 

Quite what an 0802 was doing on a Swansea working is no doubt down to Captain Agility Trains and the Mysterons. (and a very slack diagram provision contract organised by DafT?).

 

Incidentally I was informed on Monday, rightly or wrongly, that 800s and 802s are electrically incompatible and cannot therefore be used to rescue/assist each other - and other own goal by someone perchance? 

[Coryton]

Quite what an 0802 was doing on a Swansea working is no doubt down to Captain Agility Trains and the Mysterons. (and a very slack diagram provision contract organised by DafT?).

 

 

Just seen a 2x5 802 in Cardiff Central...

 

 

Incidentally I was informed on Monday, rightly or wrongly, that 800s and 802s are electrically incompatible and cannot therefore be used to rescue/assist each other - and other own goal by someone perchance? 

 

I really hope that isn't true. It's very hard to see why it should be the case.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Coryton

[HillsideDepot]

Re 802010 - the Past and Present BR43s/800 Super Express All Enthusiasts Group on Face Book features a regular diary post by one of the Group owners who is also a GWR Bristol Driver.

 

His diary for yesterday says that, having been swapped of his rostered duty (pass BRI - PAD, drive 0730 PAD - ESD, pass ESD - BRI) when he booked on. He was instead directed to Stoke Gifford to take an ECS IET to Swansea. When he arrived at the depot nothing was booked for the turn, nor did the Person in Charge know anything. After 10 minutes he was allocated 802010 as 5L34 05:31am Stoke Gifford - Swansea, commenting "This should've been a nine car set but due to set repairs and non availability only going to be a 5car.. might be a bit crowded...". He then rode passenger on it back to Cardiff, changing there for a 158 to Temple Meads and finish.

 

Interestingly, Realtime Trains shows a booked arrival at Swansea of 0753 for 5L34, which isn't much use for working 1L34, the 0729 ex Swansea! Good job the ECS arrived at 0712.

[black and decker boy]

 

Incidentally I was informed on Monday, rightly or wrongly, that 800s and 802s are electrically incompatible and cannot therefore be used to rescue/assist each other - and other own goal by someone perchance? 

 

AIUI, on GWR this is a temporary* problem as the 800s and 802s are currently on different versions of the train management software.

 

On the ECML, they are on the same version and it has been reported elsewhere that an 800/801 and an 802 have been coupled and run successfully.

 

*It just depends on when Hitachi get round to equalising the TMS on GWR as to when they become compatible.

[Mallard60022]

This maybe complete b0llocks I am reporting, but when I was down at the Station yesterday evening observing a real train that stopped for ten minutes to be admired, a chap I see there sometimes was mumbling something about an 800 of some type he had seen earlier in the day (Wednesday 20th I am sure he meant) with a DB 92 on the rear (push mode seemingly). He wasn't drunk, but I'm not sure about his knowledge of new stuff despite 800s being quite distinguishable here at 36E. The implication was that the 92 was shoving the 800! I have no idea if LNER have a DB92 set up as an Azuma Thunderbird? Was he imagining things (as their is a 225 set with a DB92 providing power at the moment) or is this something to look out for?

Phil

['CHARD]

This maybe complete b0llocks I am reporting, but when I was down at the Station yesterday evening observing a real train that stopped for ten minutes to be admired, a chap I see there sometimes was mumbling something about an 800 of some type he had seen earlier in the day (Wednesday 20th I am sure he meant) with a DB 92 on the rear (push mode seemingly). He wasn't drunk, but I'm not sure about his knowledge of new stuff despite 800s being quite distinguishable here at 36E. The implication was that the 92 was shoving the 800! I have no idea if LNER have a DB92 set up as an Azuma Thunderbird? Was he imagining things (as their is a 225 set with a DB92 providing power at the moment) or is this something to look out for?

Phil

 

225 set with a DB 90 I think, no 92s working in passenger mode except for on Sleepers, AFAIK.

[Ken.W]

This maybe complete b0llocks I am reporting, but when I was down at the Station yesterday evening observing a real train that stopped for ten minutes to be admired, a chap I see there sometimes was mumbling something about an 800 of some type he had seen earlier in the day (Wednesday 20th I am sure he meant) with a DB 92 on the rear (push mode seemingly). He wasn't drunk, but I'm not sure about his knowledge of new stuff despite 800s being quite distinguishable here at 36E. The implication was that the 92 was shoving the 800! I have no idea if LNER have a DB92 set up as an Azuma Thunderbird? Was he imagining things (as their is a 225 set with a DB92 providing power at the moment) or is this something to look out for?

Phil

Sorry, but sounds as though you were probably correct in the opening remark

 

As I've remarked above, LNER at present don't have anything to do with running any Satsumas, including training runs, since Hitachi put their toys back in the box. The Thunderbirds are all 67s and we don't have any drivers who know 92s. As the test running's all done by GBRf I'd presume they or Hitachi would take care of oganising any rescue requirements. Also, I don't see that a 92 would be compatable with an 800 in push-pull mode, Maybe able to propel one at slow speed in emergency to clear the main line?

 

Erm, no, it's a Mk4 set with a Class 90

[TravisM]

Sorry, but sounds as though you were probably correct in the opening remark

 

As I've remarked above, LNER at present don't have anything to do with running any Satsumas, including training runs, since Hitachi put their toys back in the box. The Thunderbirds are all 67s and we don't have any drivers who know 92s. As the test running's all done by GBRf I'd presume they or Hitachi would take care of oganising any rescue requirements. Also, I don't see that a 92 would be compatable with an 800 in push-pull mode, Maybe able to propel one at slow speed in emergency to clear the main line?

 

Erm, no, it's a Mk4 set with a Class 90

90019 “Multimodal” was at the head of a LNER Mk IV set during the week on a KX - Newark service. How that guy thought it was a DBC Class 92, he must have been on the wacky backy. Also, 92’s have only got a top speed of 87mph where as 90’s are 110mph, so there’s no way LNER would put one on their services and expect them to keep to time!

Edited December 22, 2018 by jools1959

[Mallard60022]

90019 “Multimodal” was at the head of a LNER Mk IV set during the week on a KX - Newark service. How that guy thought it was a DBC Class 92, he must have been on the wacky backy. Also, 92’s have only got a top speed of 87mph where as 90’s are 110mph, so there’s no way LNER would put one on their services and expect them to keep to time!

 

Ah that explains things but this chap is very old and takes little interest in modern stuff so he can be forgiven and may I suggest not mocked? I may have mentioned 92 but should have probably said 90 as they appear here quite often. Yes I have seen that 90 on 225s and one or however many has been working services for weeks. I used to enjoy seeing them on a Steel working as far as Donny (and return to Dollands Moor I presume?) years back.

So what happens if one of these 800 things dies en route then? Does it just cause chaos?

Phil 

[TravisM]

Ah that explains things but this chap is very old and takes little interest in modern stuff so he can be forgiven and may I suggest not mocked? I may have mentioned 92 but should have probably said 90 as they appear here quite often. Yes I have seen that 90 on 225s and one or however many has been working services for weeks. I used to enjoy seeing them on a Steel working as far as Donny (and return to Dollands Moor I presume?) years back.

So what happens if one of these 800 things dies en route then? Does it just cause chaos?

Phil

 

Hi Phil,

 

If you’d said he was elderly, I would have understood his confusion and wouldn’t have mocked him. As to 800’s dying under the wires, they are all fitted with a engine or engines so they can get themselves out of trouble (even the pure electric ones) should it arise.

[phil-b259]

AIUI, on GWR this is a temporary* problem as the 800s and 802s are currently on different versions of the train management software.

 

On the ECML, they are on the same version and it has been reported elsewhere that an 800/801 and an 802 have been coupled and run successfully.

 

*It just depends on when Hitachi get round to equalising the TMS on GWR as to when they become compatible.

 

Not exactly unusuall

 

I remember that the Electrostar EMUs ordered by Southern and South Eastern were often seen with notices stuck in the cab saying that 'this unit can only couple to another blue triangle unit' - which was all down to different software versions in different builds.

 

Once all the bugs had been ironed out then all units eventually ended up running the same software and the coupling restrictions disappeared - no doubt the same process will happen with GWRs 800 series units in time, but until then its one more headace for those trying to formulate train plans / rolling stock diagramming

[Oldddudders]

Having had our first taste of 80x yesterday, it really wasn’t too bad. We had disembarked from a cruise at Southampton, so 221 to Reading and change into 10.03 Paddington - Penzance seemed reasonable, and probably better than the alternative GWR service changing at Bristol TM suggested by Journey Planner. “Any Reasonable” routing is obviously rather elastic these days. Sadly the poor 80x had had some sort of door problem, so was 8’ LS, but then lost its path and was behind a DMU going to Bedwyn, thus being about 14’ late from Reading. [How can anything going to Bedwyn possibly have a Class 1 train ID? 1K08 or some such, I think. Ridiculous, but fits well with Gerry Fiennes discovery 60 years ago that at Reading “Sir, we do not blow whistles at passengers from Newbury!”] Thus we lost more time before passing the DMU, and were 16’ or more late getting to Cogload. Implausibly the XC Manchester - Paignton we were booked to precede was held at Taunton to follow us, so we connected into that at Newton Abbot for Torquay. Comfort levels were reasonable and the coffee was ok. But effective catering seems to be lacking in these units?

[Zomboid]

Bedwyn trains run non stop on the fast lines from Paddington to Reading, so a class 1 headcode isn't that outrageous.

 

One that isn't obvious is the SWR Dorking trains, which run as class 1 for some reason, despite being all stations.

[Gwiwer]

Bedwyn trains run non stop on the fast lines from Paddington to Reading, so a class 1 headcode isn't that outrageous.

 

One that isn't obvious is the SWR Dorking trains, which run as class 1 for some reason, despite being all stations.

 

Off topic but as information the SWR 1Dxx Waterloo - Dorking trains are considered Class 1 because they run on the (former Horsham) main line south of Leatherhead rather than taking the "suburban" branch to Guildford which trains are 2Dxx having come the same way and served the same stops from Waterloo.

 

Exactly what constitutes a Class 1 or Class 2 train is a subject for its own thread but there are certainly some oddities around.  Out of Waterloo 1Lxx are West of England trains making usually two stops to Basingstoke then serving all or most points beyond but 2Bxx are "Stopping" trains to Poole which are equally fast as far as Basingstoke then serve most stops beyond. 2Lxx are the semi-fast Basingstoke trains which make many more stops over the parallel section than 2Bxx.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Gwiwer