Class 800 - Updates

[Ken.W]

On 18/09/2019 at 22:23, jim.snowdon said:

 

I would agree with you on the neutral section siting, but I wonder if the OLE designers knew that it would end up with a 2x5-car train using the 1st and 4th pantographs.

 

 

Well you'd think that they should have known that, as it's due to the permitted speeds depending on how far the pantographs being used are apart

Both outer pans 125

One outer and one inner 100

Both inner 80

Edited October 20, 2019 by Ken.W
typo

[Ken.W]

On 18/09/2019 at 23:25, Zomboid said:

Presumably there's a reason why you can't do that. I couldn't imagine what it could be though. Rolling stock to that kind of depth is outside my area of knowledge, but hasn't there been examples of an LNER 800 dragging an 801 around? If that's permissible...

 

Sounds like another case of just because Hitachi says so

As you say, there's examples of an 800 hauling an 801, and the favored method of assisting a failed 80x is by another 80x.

 

On 18/09/2019 at 23:59, royaloak said:

There are many things available on the trains that we are not allowed to use (such as dual mode, one in electric and one in diesel, the reason supposedly being the strain on the coupling ) , and yes Hitachi are quite happy for the LNER 800s to drag an 801 to Eastleigh for commissioning work, what sort of strain does that put on the coupling? 

 

Yet on LNER it is allowed to use dual mode, provided it's the leading set that's on electric

[Bomag]

First time I have seen a pair of 800/2s in service (204/205) on the 07:00 Leeds to KX. There was no catering so waited for the 07:15 HST (missing a TS but with catering ). Saw 204 later heading south on its own, looking rather wedged. Also something damaged the wires south of Doncaster on the up  line in the afternoon - I was on 91 set going north and the first thing to come south in the gloom was a very slow bi-mode on diesel. 

[great central]

6 hours ago, Bomag said:

First time I have seen a pair of 800/2s in service (204/205) on the 07:00 Leeds to KX. There was no catering so waited for the 07:15 HST (missing a TS but with catering ). Saw 204 later heading south on its own, looking rather wedged. Also something damaged the wires south of Doncaster on the up  line in the afternoon - I was on 91 set going north and the first thing to come south in the gloom was a very slow bi-mode on diesel. 

That something damaging the wires was a tractor going over Ranskill level crossing with the tipping trailer raised. There's CCTV of it on Twitter I believe, certainly was sent out on the LNER control app.

[TomJ]

I travel almost once a week from Leeds to London - luckily first class - and I think some of the comments are a little melodramatic. The seats may be a little harder but I don’t notice a great difference from mk4 or HST. Certainly fewer problems like broken seats or blocked loos. I think most passengers are quite happy with them. Certainly not enough difference to make someone fly or drive. At the end of the day it’s a train from A-B, just like before. The older stock was really starting to show it’s age. Every time we passed a train my drink spilt - #firstworldproblems

Edited October 22, 2019 by TomJ

[Gwiwer]

I don't have any immediate plans to travel on the East Coast Main Line but if anything happens to change that and I can offer a direct comparison with th eGWR sets then I shall do so.  It seems the LNER sets might be slightly better appointed and they almost certainly enjoy better track.  Plus they have catering - though not on every occasion when it is advertised - but it's more than a trolley serving crisps, cola and drink-through-the-paper "coffee".  GWR customers will know what I mean.

 

[Siberian Snooper]

11 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

I don't have any immediate plans to travel on the East Coast Main Line but if anything happens to change that and I can offer a direct comparison with th eGWR sets then I shall do so.  It seems the LNER sets might be slightly better appointed and they almost certainly enjoy better track.  Plus they have catering - though not on every occasion when it is advertised - but it's more than a trolley serving crisps, cola and drink-through-the-paper "coffee".  GWR customers will know what I mean.

 

 

I think that the "coffee" is terrible, I tried it once, never again it's bloody disgusting.

 

 

[APOLLO]

One of the nicest cups of coffee I have ever had was a couple of years ago from a trolley on a Trans Pennine EMU Edinburgh to Manchester Airport service. (when they used to call at Wigan NW).

 

I've never seen an 800 / etc let alone travelled on one. The reports are not complementary. Our Pendolino's aren't perfect but I hope we keep them on the WCML. At least they have done the job they were designed to do for quite a few years ago now - how time flies.

 

Brit15

Edited October 23, 2019 by APOLLO

[adb968008]

First LNER Azuma made it to Inverness today..

(A VEC made it last year).

 

seeing Tyne Yard and Doncaster yesterday, the party isn't going to last for HSTs and 91’s... the 800’s are ready and waiting.

Edited October 23, 2019 by adb968008

[Mallard60022]

21 hours ago, TomJ said:

I travel almost once a week from Leeds to London - luckily first class - and I think some of the comments are a little melodramatic. The seats may be a little harder but I don’t notice a great difference from mk4 or HST. Certainly fewer problems like broken seats or blocked loos. I think most passengers are quite happy with them. Certainly not enough difference to make someone fly or drive. At the end of the day it’s a train from A-B, just like before. The older stock was really starting to show it’s age. Every time we passed a train my drink spilt - #firstworldproblems

Well TomJ, on the LNER FB pages there are plenty of folk, who appear to be daily commuters, who will disagree with you I am sorry to say. However, lots of folk like them and must have very padded arses. I think the Units are clean and tidy if a bit aeroplaneish, but I do find Standard seating really uncomfortable after about 20 minutes; First is better due to the adjustment feature. Staff are always great in my experience, often dealing with quite challenging passengers with professionalism and patience of Saints, by that I mean the ones I would gladly punch in the face or groin or both, depending upon their level of arrogance or ignorance.

 

P

[Ian Hargrave]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

First LNER Azuma made it to Inverness today..

(A VEC made it last year).

 

seeing Tyne Yard and Doncaster yesterday, the party isn't going to last for HSTs and 91’s... the 800’s are ready and waiting.

Was this a crew training run or was in service?

[Richard E]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Well TomJ, on the LNER FB pages there are plenty of folk, who appear to be daily commuters, who will disagree with you I am sorry to say. However, lots of folk like them and must have very padded arses. I think the Units are clean and tidy if a bit aeroplaneish, but I do find Standard seating really uncomfortable after about 20 minutes; First is better due to the adjustment feature. Staff are always great in my experience, often dealing with quite challenging passengers with professionalism and patience of Saints, by that I mean the ones I would gladly punch in the face or groin or both, depending upon their level of arrogance or ignorance.

 

P

I've looked on the LNER FB pages and I'm struggling to find large numbers of dislikes. In fact I see lots of folk praising the comfort of the 800's. Do you have any examples or links so that I can make up my own mind on the general feeling.

 

Unfortunately (or perhaps not) I no longer travel daily on LNER and I've had no need to use their services since the 800's were introduced.

[talisman56]

Looking at the myriad of numbers on the side of the Azuma, there may be a lot of confusion between set numbers and coach running numbers... (both 6 digit, starting with 8, in the same font?)

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Richard E said:

 

 

Unfortunately (or perhaps not) I no longer travel daily on LNER and I've had no need to use their services since the 800's were introduced.

You may find that the threads have been 'edited' mate and no I don't have any specific links I am sorry but have shufty at some of the comments in this one ;https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=lner east coast&epa=SEARCH_BOX

I know they have been edited as I take part in them frequently and see posts disappear. I have been on the LNER Customer Forum(s) and on line Community for several years and following the Azuma threads on FB since before their intro to service on the Leeds. Believe me or not, the threads were and are infested with moaners, not unlike RMW in some areas. This is perhaps because the moaners like to be heard and or the likers just are not posting as they have had a good time? I am a 'liker' except for the seats, poor ride on some and frequent failure of the seating res. signage.   I also stand up for LNER as most of the moaners have little or no idea who was responsible for the train purchase and design features along with the restrictions put out by Hitachi and difficulties for staff as a consequence.

 

Perhaps you would let me know if my personal FB details come up in the link when you open it?

Phil

Edited October 23, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, talisman56 said:

Looking at the myriad of numbers on the side of the Azuma, there may be a lot of confusion between set numbers and coach running numbers... (both 6 digit, starting with 8, in the same font?)

Could be but the set numbers are on the Driving Cars...…..almost impossible to read when they pass 36E at 120mph.

P

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Was this a crew training run or was in service?

Training of a sort...

 

it was an LNER family and friends test run, approx 50% loaded with random “passengers” boarding and deboarding at all Chieftain stops between Edinburgh and Inverness and on the return. Basixalky a loaded test run with staff & friends acting as passengers and a part PR run ahead of launch... hence it being a 1Zxx not a 3Zxx as the empty test runs go.

 

My daughter and I were given nice LNER Azuma goodie bags, with various souvenirs inside.

 

It lost time on the hills on the return, arrived Haymarket as the Northbound Chieftain passed it.

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by adb968008

[Ken.W]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Could be but the set numbers are on the Driving Cars...…..almost impossible to read when they pass 36E at 120mph.

P

 

Yes, the set number's the one at the cab end of the driving cars

 

Coach numbers, first digit 8, and last 3 digits are the set number.

4th digit is the coach's position in the set from, IIRC, the standard class end.

2nd seems to depend on class / sub-class, but haven't worked out yet how they work.

 

Note, unlike previous stock where coaches were numbered in blocks by type, ie FO; SO etc, these are numbered by their set and their position in the train.

 

There was some debate here a while back as to the possibility of coaches being swapped between sets, for maintenance for example.

From the above that's clearly not intended to happen.

We're not even told how to uncouple coaches in an emergency.

 

Edit to add;

Mallard,

Hint, when they're passing you at 120mph, at the driving end you just need look for the 3rd digit to tell if it's an 800 or 801.

Any other number will give you the set number by the last 3 digits

Edited October 23, 2019 by Ken.W

[Ken.W]

I've heard that last Friday the 21:00 KGX - NCL unfortunately hit someone, somewhere south of Doncaster.

 

The train however was an Azuma (apparently their first week on this service)

...it was totally disabled and lost all power. Even the toilets not working from what I heard.

They were unable to change it over to diesel mode either.

 

Ended up transferring passengers off the train where it was standing onto the 22:00 off KGX, which arrived into Newcastle around 06:30 next morning.

The Azuma was still there.

 

It was eventually removed by putting a 67 on each end, and the fitters releasing all the brakes.

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

 

 

There was some debate here a while back as to the possibility of coaches being swapped between sets, for maintenance for example.

From the above that's clearly not intended to happen.

We're not even told how to uncouple coaches in an emergency.

 

 

This is hardly surprising - IETs are true Multiple Units (just like an Electrostar, a 319, etc) and not a loco and rake of coaches operated in a push-pull formation (HSTs, IC225s, etc).

 

An IET is no different to a 377 - all vehicles have to be maintained together and if a vehicle develops a defect then thats the whole unit out of commission till its fixed*. None of this 'swapping out' a defective coach as per the Mk4s or Mk3s used with proper locomotives.

 

* I understand a fire damaged 4 car 377 was eventually returned to service over a year later as a 3 car after a fire on one of the intermediate chicles - but this is very much the exception

[Ken.W]

11 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is hardly surprising - IETs are true Multiple Units (just like an Electrostar, a 319, etc) and not a loco and rake of coaches operated in a push-pull formation (HSTs, IC225s, etc).

 

An IET is no different to a 377 - all vehicles have to be maintained together and if a vehicle develops a defect then thats the whole unit out of commission till its fixed*. None of this 'swapping out' a defective coach as per the Mk4s or Mk3s used with proper locomotives.

 

* I understand a fire damaged 4 car 377 was eventually returned to service over a year later as a 3 car after a fire on one of the intermediate chicles - but this is very much the exception

 

Although this may not be unique to these sets, our previous sets do have the ability to swap out defective coaches, as do many "true Multiple Units".

This seems to be the modern thing though, with the loss of any flexibility. After all, they're brand new sets with all the latest tech so what could possibly go wrong with them?

 

So, if there's a set with a defective coach 2, and another with a defective coach 4, you're 2 trains short instead of just one.

Yes, the really is progress!

[phil-b259]

32 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

 

Although this may not be unique to these sets, our previous sets do have the ability to swap out defective coaches, as do many "true Multiple Units".

This seems to be the modern thing though, with the loss of any flexibility. After all, they're brand new sets with all the latest tech so what could possibly go wrong with them?

 

So, if there's a set with a defective coach 2, and another with a defective coach 4, you're 2 trains short instead of just one.

Yes, the really is progress!

 

I fear you are over estimating how much swapping out of individual EMUs vehicles actually occurred - even BR built stock like the 455s and 321s which lacked complications on on board computers were not particularly easy with their rigid bar couplers rather than easily separable couplings.

 

Certainly you will not find Southern chopping about their Electrostars or SWR their Desiros in the manor you allude to - if one vehicle is defective then the whole unit* is lost!

 

Similarly I believe that the West Coast Pendalinos stay as a complete rake and vehicles are not swapped out if faults occur due to the on board computers.

 

Its also the case that maintenance schedules are based round entire units - mixing up vehicles from different units creates immense aggro in making sure everything gets serviced when it should. Yes loco hauled (or pushed) coaches need servicing too but they are quicker and can probably run longer between exams, plus of course you can use vehicles officially designated as / specifically procured as spares to gradually cycle through the whole set .

 

However when talking of 'spares' EMU / DMU fleets don't come with 'spare' coaches do they? - why provide a bunch of spare coaches and have them sitting round doing not a lot when you can make another unit out of them? By constrast but loco hauled stock is generally provided with a few extras to cover the need to withdraw individual vehicles.

 

If you examine the new TPE fleets for example you will note that although there are a couple of Mk5 coaches and one DVT being provided as 'spares' for the loco hauled sets,  there are zero spares being provided for the EMU / Bi-mode fleet.

 

* with the occasional exception normally due to accident damage taking many months to repair.

[rodent279]

A trip to London with friends last weekend produced 800015+032 on the 0904 BPW-PAD. The set was in reverse formation, with E-A being the front unit, F-J (?) on the rear. This predictably caused a little confusion, and a last minute scramble.

I managed to grab this shot, taken at the top of the steps to the toilet on P1, of a pair of Azumas (Azumi?) mimicking Brunel's trainshed curves, in a Paddington devoid of the sound of diesel engines, for the first time in my experience.

 

The journey home on Sunday was in a pleasantly empty 800026+036, forming the 1837 to BPW, this time the correct way round. The coffee was not bad. Not the best I've had, but good enough. Ride was average to choppy on both journeys.

 

As for the seats, for shortish journeys like London-Bristol, I find them ok. The thing I don't like about them is the way the head rest seems to incline my head forward. What they'll be like after 3+ hours, in darkest Cornwall, I don't know.

Edited October 24, 2019 by rodent279

[Richard E]

12 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

You may find that the threads have been 'edited' mate and no I don't have any specific links I am sorry but have shufty at some of the comments in this one ;https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=lner east coast&epa=SEARCH_BOX

I know they have been edited as I take part in them frequently and see posts disappear. I have been on the LNER Customer Forum(s) and on line Community for several years and following the Azuma threads on FB since before their intro to service on the Leeds. Believe me or not, the threads were and are infested with moaners, not unlike RMW in some areas. This is perhaps because the moaners like to be heard and or the likers just are not posting as they have had a good time? I am a 'liker' except for the seats, poor ride on some and frequent failure of the seating res. signage.   I also stand up for LNER as most of the moaners have little or no idea who was responsible for the train purchase and design features along with the restrictions put out by Hitachi and difficulties for staff as a consequence.

 

Perhaps you would let me know if my personal FB details come up in the link when you open it?

Phil

Aha - that has produced the moans. Can't work out why I've not seen them before even though that is the page I've been looking at.

[TomJ]

I suppose my point was that even if the seats are complained about is there actual evidence people are abandoning the train for the car or plane? What people say and do are often very difference, especially on social media!

 

The LNER trains still seem rather full!

Edited October 24, 2019 by TomJ

[royaloak]

12 hours ago, rodent279 said:

A trip to London with friends last weekend produced 800015+032 on the 0904 BPW-PAD. The set was in reverse formation, with E-A being the front unit, F-J (?) on the rear.

I do wish the crew would spend 30* seconds getting the formation the right way around, it isnt difficult!

 

Although going by the company Yammer account some crews arent aware of what the formation ought to be despite it being on notices several times, some think A-E should be leading all the time, others think the lower numbered unit should be A-E etc, which is bloody stupid because neither has ever been the case.

 

Dont expect the reservations to work on a weekend because the database never seems to be loaded at weekends which it could be argued is when it is needed the most as that is when we have more occasional travellers.

 

* sometimes it can take the computer a couple of minutes to load up the formation before it can be corrected, the correction takes less than 30 seconds.