3D scanning Rapido's latest UK prototype...

[Downendian]

I was interested to see in the RMWeb/MRE Mag wish-list poll that the prototype HST power car isn't mentioned for 00.

 

Luke

Luke - it was, in the DMU section, and my vote cast accordingly.

Neil

[Legend]

Must admit , getting a little jaded with these announcements of announcements. As well as this one, there's Locomotion models and Rail Exclusives. People complain about froth and then seem to engineer it.

[luke_stevens]

Luke - it was, in the DMU section, and my vote cast accordingly.

Neil

DMU?!? I didn't see it there, but then I wasn't looking for it there.

 

I would have expected it to be in loco's as it has been a 41 for a lot longer than a 252.

 

Lucky I haven't voted yet...

 

Thanks

 

Luke

[Derekstuart]

Luke,

 

even as a class 41 it still wouldn't be a DMU.

 

In the distant past (not long after the world became colour rather than monochrome) the Edinburgh to Glasgow express was formed of 2 class 27 sandwiching MK2's. That wasn't classed as a DMU- even though it could fulfil many of the requirements of a DMU-  ie comprising 2 or more units and be controlled from one cab. A HST cannot do this, yet is often referred to as such.

[wombatofludham]

Luke,

 

even as a class 41 it still wouldn't be a DMU.

 

In the distant past (not long after the world became colour rather than monochrome) the Edinburgh to Glasgow express was formed of 2 class 27 sandwiching MK2's. That wasn't classed as a DMU- even though it could fulfil many of the requirements of a DMU-  ie comprising 2 or more units and be controlled from one cab. A HST cannot do this, yet is often referred to as such.

I must admit wondering where the grammatical emphasis of "multiple" and "unit" lies in "DMU". Is it a unit train (i.e. a train which normally operated in a fixed formation) made up of multiple units (power and trailer) or a train capable of being coupled up to other unit trains and operated in multiple from one cab. If the former, then unitised trains which normally don't run in multiple with other unit trains but which are made up of multiple combinations of motor, driving and trailer cars might be described as a "multiple unit" (e.g. Pendolino and HST) but I personally have always thought it to describe a unit train (multiple combinations of driving units, motor cars and trailer cars with cabs at each end) capable of operating with other similar trains as longer trains all controlled from a lead cab, in which case neither the Pendolino or HST would be "multiple units".

 

Perhaps we need a railway thesaurus thread staring...

[Derekstuart]

I can see your point, but in day to day operation a HST set is classed as one unit. It cannot be split in normal service. Can it be combined in MULTIPLE and controlled from one cab? No.

 

(Actually, strictly speaking I believe when new they did have a Multi jumper at the nose so a failed lead unit could be controlled from the lead cab, powered by a working HST to the rear, but that's not a normal operation).

 

Again I would refer to my 27+MK2s+27, does anyone want to class that as a DMU? After all, your first option does fit- a multiple collection of power vehicles and trailers all working from one cab.

 

But then again, what is the difference between, say, a 101 power-trailer combination and a class 90 with MK3s and a DVT? 

 

I believe BR did state in its 'rule book' dating back to the era when DMU's were new to the rails, what was actually meant by DMU- so any older railway worker, or anyone who has acquired such a book (I have several left to me- I will see if I can find one) will be able to give BRs opinion.


EDIT: I have a book of "railwayman's use of Diesel Multiple Units" (or very similar title) issued late 1950's for training steam crews to work on diesel. I have a rough idea where it is. I will report back.

[wombatofludham]

I can see your point, but in day to day operation a HST set is classed as one unit. It cannot be split in normal service. Can it be combined in MULTIPLE and controlled from one cab? No.

 

(Actually, strictly speaking I believe when new they did have a Multi jumper at the nose so a failed lead unit could be controlled from the lead cab, powered by a working HST to the rear, but that's not a normal operation).

 

Again I would refer to my 27+MK2s+27, does anyone want to class that as a DMU? After all, your first option does fit- a multiple collection of power vehicles and trailers all working from one cab.

 

But then again, what is the difference between, say, a 101 power-trailer combination and a class 90 with MK3s and a DVT? 

 

I believe BR did state in its 'rule book' dating back to the era when DMU's were new to the rails, what was actually meant by DMU- so any older railway worker, or anyone who has acquired such a book (I have several left to me- I will see if I can find one) will be able to give BRs opinion.

 

 

EDIT: I have a book of "railwayman's use of Diesel Multiple Units" (or very similar title) issued late 1950's for training steam crews to work on diesel. I have a rough idea where it is. I will report back.

I completely agree, a multiple unit to me is a train capable of being combined with other similar trains in service and driven from the leading cab whereas a "unit train" would be a usually fixed formation train which normally can only "change formation" in a depot. A multiple unit would be capable of working a multi-portion service to multiple destinations splitting en-route, a "unit train" can't.

 

It seems logical to me anyway, and I must admit to being a bit annoyed when I see HST and Pendolini referred to as "multiple units", I prefer to call them "unit trains", which satisfies my inner pedant at any rate.

[Derekstuart]

Of course, I would never refer to a pendolino as a train either.

 

Make a damned good garden shed or scout hut though or home for retired politicians.

 

I can't wait for the day when the last pendolino is transported to sit and rot at Crewe railway heritage centre, right next to the WCML.

(sorry, I am off topic now)

[srihaggis]

Of course, I would never refer to a pendolino as a train either.

 

Make a damned good garden shed or scout hut though or home for retired politicians.

 

I can't wait for the day when the last pendolino is transported to sit and rot at Crewe railway heritage centre, right next to the WCML.

 

(sorry, I am off topic now)

 

I'm clearly from the wrong era. It was the pendolino that inspired me back into model railways, although my modelling criteria has since changed back to good old LHCS stuff.

[Derekstuart]

SRIHAGGIS

 

Everyone has their own preferred era. I suppose that my preferred "expresses are blue HSTs and 47s, with locals running by 310's and 101's" era would be enough to make steam nuts tut and sigh in disgust at such modernity. Likewise as far as I am concerned, privatisation did not take place in miniature.

 

No doubt when the railways are re-Nationalised (!) there will be some old grumpy sod bemoaning "these new whipper snappers with their British Rail trains. I much prefer my old stagecoach pretending to be virgin pendolinos and voyagers"

You can tell a person's age by their choice of train.

[wombatofludham]

Not necessarily...my two shed layouts are planned to be LMS 1934-9, West Coast Electric 1966-2006 and Kings Oak is set either in 1990 or 2006. So on that basis I'm either approaching 90, 50, 30 or 10.

 

I may feel like a 90 year old behaving like a 10 year old but I'm actually coming up to 53!

 

(edit)I'm also planning a new small exhibition layout set in 1841. Whatever I may sometimes smell like, I'm not the rotting corpse of a railway enthusiast from over 160 years ago...

[Derekstuart]

Wombatofludham, I think that's probably the funniest post I have read on rmw. I have just washed my laptop screen in tea AND nearly choked at the same time thanks to you!

 

I did wonder if I should go back and add "... you can usually, but not always, tell [the persons age...]" but you beat me to it.

[GRUNFOS]

I completely agree, a multiple unit to me is a train capable of being combined with other similar trains in service and driven from the leading cab whereas a "unit train" would be a usually fixed formation train which normally can only "change formation" in a depot. A multiple unit would be capable of working a multi-portion service to multiple destinations splitting en-route, a "unit train" can't.

 

It seems logical to me anyway, and I must admit to being a bit annoyed when I see HST and Pendolini referred to as "multiple units", I prefer to call them "unit trains", which satisfies my inner pedant at any rate.

Shouldn't it be a DEMU. diesel multiple unit with electric transmission?

[wombatofludham]

Shouldn't it be a DEMU. diesel multiple unit with electric transmission?

I personally don't think so because in normal service they can't combine or detach to form smaller portions, they are effectively two locos and a set of coaches designed to work together as a single unit. A DEMU to me would be a Thumper or Voyager/Meridian, which can attach to another unit to make a longer train and do so in day to day service.

 

To be honest in the case of the HST we can avoid all the word games by just calling them HSTs!

[Derekstuart]

Grunfos

 

See my earlier comment

 

A class 27 with 5 or more Mk2s and a 27 at the other end, wired through for remote control. Is that a DMU or is that 2 locos sandwiching a rake of MK2's?

Oddly that could be classed as a DMU as you could combine 2 sets together and control from one cab, but I think I'd be burned at the stake for suggesting it. Yet it is more accurate than describing the HST set as anything other than a HST set.

Or if you want to be old fashioned you could call it a 125. Or in modern European parlance, you could call it an 200(KMH).

[Talltim]

Are the new 12 car units for Thameslink EMUs? I bet the software won't let them be used in passenger service in multiple even I you can couple them up

[stewartingram]

Or you could call it plastic.....

grabs coat and runs

 

Stewart

[Gerald Henriksen]

Another picture that may offer clues is in the Rapido News UK Volume 5 now arriving in inboxes for those who subscribe.  I would guess it will be on the Rapido website in the next couple of days.

[Removed a/c]

Could it be a Class 41 ?

[Derekstuart]

There aren't any left to scan though. Also they weren't widely used.

[Steven B]

It depends if your definition of a class 41 looks like a D600 Diesel Hydraulic or a prototype HST power car.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[GordonC]

Another picture that may offer clues is in the Rapido News UK Volume 5 now arriving in inboxes for those who subscribe.  I would guess it will be on the Rapido website in the next couple of days.

 

The picture looked an awful lot like a silouetted Class 320/321 which would tie in with the Revolution Trains N gauge offering too

[Derekstuart]

Steven

 

Good point. But the prototype HST wasn't made before "a long time ago".

 

The Warship was- Hornby made one. There again, so have Dapol recently so I'm told.

 

My money is on the prototype HST- I hope so as it will look right sitting alongside a (detailed) Lima production version- which of course is the only one so far to be made relatively accurate... (I know that will be red rag to a bull for some. Sorry, but it's my opinion and I stick with it)

[Gerald Henriksen]

For those who haven't subscribed to the newsletter it is now available online at:

 

http://rapidotrains.com/rapidonewsuk05.html

[bennyboy]

The picture looked an awful lot like a silouetted Class 320/321 which would tie in with the Revolution Trains N gauge offering too

Well Bratchell have made one in the past, but I don't know if that would qualify it as being made "a very, very long time" ago and they were pretty widespread so it could be a 321.