East Coast Main Line to Virgin Trains East Coast

[pete_mcfarlane]

But to an extent their jobs ARE at risk.

 

Lets have a look at the wider picture - the Government has made it clear ever since the McNulty review was published that it expects DOO operation (at least as far as door control is concerned) to be the norm and has been applying considerable pressure on franchise bidders to implement it in recent years.

 

Interesting, although none of that is apparent from the RMT's rants. They might be more effective if they tried to educate the public about what is happening, rather than bringing up the refranchising of the ECML for the millionth time. 

[phil-b259]

Interesting, although none of that is apparent from the RMT's rants. They might be more effective if they tried to educate the public about what is happening, rather than bringing up the refranchising of the ECML for the millionth time. 

Quite - but most of this is not about what might be happening now - its what might happen in a few years time. Like I said earlier with the GTR dispute, Southern are actually going to increase conductor numbers - not reduce them, plus there are no dramatic changes planned to the conductors T&Cs once the trains go over to DOO. In 5 or 10 years time however that might not be the case and DOO removes the most significant tool the RMT have to resist it (namely strike action) causing the mass disruption they need it to if it is to be effective.

 

Thus the perceived training up of management to act as 'Scab' labour' in disputes (regardless of the truth of the mater) will always get the RMT going.

 

As for informing the public - well survey after survey says what they actually want is to keep a visible staff presence on the train to help them out. In the GTR dispute management say this is not always possible if the conductor has to keep breaking off to oversee the door operation at every station particularly if they have to do so from the rear cab of the train, so DCO (as the DfT call it - where there is still a conductor on board - but they have no role in the trains movement / door operation) actually is giving the public what they want.

 

This means the RMT have to focus on other things to try and skew public opinion their way and ensure that their members are not, strictly speaking* fundamental to train safe operation.

 

* which does not mean guards / conductors do not have benefits of course.

 

Have a look at the RMT 'news' page and note just how many of the articles are referring to Guards / DOO on various different operators. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/archive/?p=1

 

Southerns explanation to passengers:- http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/rmt-strike-action/

RMTs explanation to passengers:- https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/a-letter-from-southern-conductors/

Edited May 20, 2016 by phil-b259

[Talltim]

I'm pro union, but I feel that the RMT are worse than useless at the higher levels. ( they are probably OK at the local level). The communist rhetoric seems to have calmed a bit with the death of Bob Crow, but all it has left is press releases that miss the point and don't in any way get the general public on side.

[jjb1970]

The thing that irritates me about a lot of RMT disputes is that they have an awful habit of cloaking pay disputes with rhetoric about safety and saving the railways. Now don't get me wrong, if there is a substantive safety issue then the RMT are not only within their rights to bring it up but would be remiss if they failed to do so. However a substantive safety issue doesn't just evaporate if a company offers its employees a better pay settlement. The fact that these safety disputes always seem to be settled in terms of pay indicates that either the safety stuff is just rhetoric or that they're not worried about unsafe trains as long as their members are paid enough. And on saving the railways, who are they saving them from? Whilst the current railways may not be perfect, on the whole trains run with reasonable punctuality, provide an intensive service and move vast numbers of people day in, day out using trains which are safe, clean and for the most part modern enough.

[The Stationmaster]

The thing that irritates me about a lot of RMT disputes is that they have an awful habit of cloaking pay disputes with rhetoric about safety and saving the railways. Now don't get me wrong, if there is a substantive safety issue then the RMT are not only within their rights to bring it up but would be remiss if they failed to do so. However a substantive safety issue doesn't just evaporate if a company offers its employees a better pay settlement. The fact that these safety disputes always seem to be settled in terms of pay indicates that either the safety stuff is just rhetoric or that they're not worried about unsafe trains as long as their members are paid enough. And on saving the railways, who are they saving them from? Whilst the current railways may not be perfect, on the whole trains run with reasonable punctuality, provide an intensive service and move vast numbers of people day in, day out using trains which are safe, clean and for the most part modern enough.

 

And this is what undermines their 'case' (if such it can be called) about a change to DOO operation.  DOO has been around for a very long time - it doesn't appear to have killed anybody, it improves reliability because you are not relying on having a Guard as well as a Driver for every train, and to be very blunt in many cases the Guards have been their own worst enemy by simply sitting in their area or back cab etc and doing little more than press the button at departure time (where in many places they have an even worse view of the train and platform than is delivered by the CCTV and mirrors which go with most DOO schemes).

 

So to argue 'safety' is really a nonsense without stats to back the claim, and the RMT don't offer any.  Basically their viewpoint is - as Phil has said - about saving job numbers (=position in the TUC and power as a union) and getting more money for those who are left after the change provided they represent them.  On ECML they might have a point however as reduction in frontline staff numbers will inevitably impact on customer service in one way or another - but there would be little or no effect on safety.  Misuse the 'safety card' and all you do is devalue it for the times when it really does matter.

[hmrspaul]

I use the ECML a lot, and have noticed a gradual slippage of standards since the Stagecoach/Virgin takeover.

 

To me, the whole operation now has a feeling of cheap and nasty.

 

If they are trying to cut costs to meet their financial commitment to Government, then things can only get worse. Such a shame to see the nation's premier railway line going this way.

 

Many of the units are looking very scruffy on the outside with brown streaks over the white of the vinyl - I don't recall the very white East Coast Government livery being dirty like this. I've posted an example of one done 6 months ago, but my son went in a refurbished internally unit on the same afternoon and externally it was very similar, as were other sets seen then and since.

 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/dmu/e797442ba

 

For those whom haven't seen them Virgin have introduced some tactile visual guides to the station - like an airport. Are there similar being introduced at other stations?

 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brerner/e77d00551

 

Paul

[Richard E]

The tactile boards are definitely in place in York but I have yet to see them elsewhere.

 

I'd agree about external condition but I have seen some (rare) examples of units that are clean externally. I suspect they have changed the cleaning cycle to try and save some money. And the brown staining is down to effluent discharge. I've come across a number of 225 units lately, including ones on their first northbound run of the day, that, under heavy braking, make a Voyager smell like a sweet summers day by comparison. The frequency of the smells is, to be fair, greater on southbound units later on in the day.

 

I have concerns that the fabric on the "XR3I" refurbished fleet is going to suffer quite quickly as I've seen one or two seats looking as if they have already been permanently marked from folk just sitting in them and crushing the fabric against its normal direction.

[BoD]

The tactile boards are definitely in place in York but I have yet to see them elsewhere.

 

Not tactile but certainly illustrative.

 

[m0rris]

To be fair to VTEC about unit presentation, when I worked at the Waverley two years ago (I left a month or so after the handover to Virgin) East Coast trains had easily the worst external presentation standards in the station - thats comparing them to Scotrail/TPE/Virgin/Crosscountry. There'd frequently be 225 sets covered in brown muck, that looked really dreadful, so things might well have got worse but it was starting from a low bar to start with.

[The Stationmaster]

The tactile boards are definitely in place in York but I have yet to see them elsewhere.

 

I'd agree about external condition but I have seen some (rare) examples of units that are clean externally. I suspect they have changed the cleaning cycle to try and save some money. And the brown staining is down to effluent discharge. I've come across a number of 225 units lately, including ones on their first northbound run of the day, that, under heavy braking, make a Voyager smell like a sweet summers day by comparison. The frequency of the smells is, to be fair, greater on southbound units later on in the day.

 

I have concerns that the fabric on the "XR3I" refurbished fleet is going to suffer quite quickly as I've seen one or two seats looking as if they have already been permanently marked from folk just sitting in them and crushing the fabric against its normal direction.

 

To me the brown staining looks like normal operational 'road dirt' and it comes off fairly easily if it is dealt with daily through a cwm plus a 4 weekly handwash to keep it looking really good.  Build up like that in Paul's picture is down to insufficient and or inadequate cleaning - possibly a broken down cwm (carriage washing machine) or a cutback on additional hand cleaning although the streaky pattern suggests to me poor/uneven contact by the brushes in a cwm as some bits are reasonably clean then there is an area which is virtually untouched then a cleaner area, and so on and neither are in a consistent pattern.  On the ther hand it might just have been taken through a cwm too fast (which can lead to vertical streaking like that).

[hmrspaul]

To me the brown staining looks like normal operational 'road dirt' and it comes off fairly easily if it is dealt with daily through a cwm plus a 4 weekly handwash to keep it looking really good.  Build up like that in Paul's picture is down to insufficient and or inadequate cleaning - possibly a broken down cwm (carriage washing machine) or a cutback on additional hand cleaning although the streaky pattern suggests to me poor/uneven contact by the brushes in a cwm as some bits are reasonably clean then there is an area which is virtually untouched then a cleaner area, and so on and neither are in a consistent pattern.  On the ther hand it might just have been taken through a cwm too fast (which can lead to vertical streaking like that).

I hope it was road dirt, the use of "effluent" genuinely concerned me - I looked up the definition and it hasn't changed since my Applied biology degree course 40 years ago - unpleasant!

 

But I must stress this is not a one off; I see these trains regularly and this horrible brown streaking is normal.

 

Paul

[Richard E]

OK, then, normal road dirt but, surely, there is an element of discharge in that because not all stock is tanked yet. I'm on one of the refurbished sets right now and though relatively clean the windows are covered in hundreds of small dark 'spots' almost like the effect on a car of road tar. It seems to extend to the coach body as well.

 

Inside the carpets are already gaining a layer of chewing gum and other sticky materials, it really makes you wonder what some folk are like at home or work. And, as is quite common, there is no power to the sockets. that is more often than not down to them being overloaded by a passenger or passengers (or possibly cleaners), they are meant for laptop and phone chargers only.

 

The paint they have used to refurbish the seat shell has, on some of them, already chipped and flaked, the seat in front of me has a big scratch from a fingernail.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Richard E

[The Stationmaster]

I hope it was road dirt, the use of "effluent" genuinely concerned me - I looked up the definition and it hasn't changed since my Applied biology degree course 40 years ago - unpleasant!

 

But I must stress this is not a one off; I see these trains regularly and this horrible brown streaking is normal.

 

Paul

 

If the brown streaking is normal then it sounds as if it's down to a cwm (or several cwms) and somebody is saving money on servicing the machines and probably on chemicals or brush renewal as well. There is no particular current weather situation that should interfere with external cleaning - sounds very much to me that it's simply penny pinching.

[cheesysmith]

Well, virgin trains are due new IEP trains soon. Anybody remember the state of the WCML fleet just before the pendo`s came into service? The history of virgin trains are they are very good at running the stock with minimal work. The 90s and mk3s required a lot of work before Anglia could use them.

[jjb1970]

There is an art to sweating an asset and arranging it so you are fully compliant with all maintenance and operating contractual requirements whilst minimising spend and handing it back in a state that means the next operator inherits a mess. I worked for a certain shipping company who'd regularly take five year or equivalent bareboat charters on new buildings to stop any of their competitors getting them and hand over heaps of junk at the end of the charter without getting into any trouble for breaching their obligations to look after the ships.

[hmrspaul]

If the brown streaking is normal then it sounds as if it's down to a cwm (or several cwms) and somebody is saving money on servicing the machines and probably on chemicals or brush renewal as well. There is no particular current weather situation that should interfere with external cleaning - sounds very much to me that it's simply penny pinching.

Cwm??

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Cwm??

Carriage Washing Machine.

[hmrspaul]

Where's the D'oh button 

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

Where's the D'oh button 

 

Paul

 

It's behind you 

[Richard E]

Oh no it isn't!

[SwissRailPassion]

Things are very tight on the East Coast as revenue is not as high as hoped.

[Richard E]

Why am I not surprised (says he on a 90% full 225). Didn't NXEC have the same issue? And Stagecoach paid more than NXEC .....

[hmrspaul]

They are advertising, as if it is good, that York to London is 2 hours 12 minutes. Nearly half an hour slower than BR! I do realise that there are a lot more trains - if we could afford it, York has a turn up and go service to London, far more frequent than services to the likes of Scarborough and Harrogate!

 

Paul

[ejstubbs]

Stagecoach eyeing Government compensation over East Coast

 

Did the franchise bid documentation not make it clear that open access competition might emerge?  Even if it wasn't stated, can/should it have been a complete surprise?

[The Stationmaster]

Stagecoach eyeing Government compensation over East Coast

 

Did the franchise bid documentation not make it clear that open access competition might emerge?  Even if it wasn't stated, can/should it have been a complete surprise?

 

Hardly a surprise as two open access operators were already running trains on the ECML and others were known to be looking for permission to do the same.  None of which explains why VTEC ECML revenue thus far should be falling below their forecasts; seems to me more a matter of their forecasts and bid figures being somewhat wide of the mark?