East Coast Main Line to Virgin Trains East Coast

[pete_mcfarlane]

Stagecoach eyeing Government compensation over East Coast

 

Did the franchise bid documentation not make it clear that open access competition might emerge?  Even if it wasn't stated, can/should it have been a complete surprise?

 

If this is actually the case, then it makes you wonder what kind of risk modelling these firms do. 

[The Stationmaster]

If this is actually the case, then it makes you wonder what kind of risk modelling these firms do. 

 

Or if they are over-rating the effectiveness of their anti-open access bluster?

[caradoc]

How did Stagecoach start out in business ? Perhaps, allegedly, by competing ruthlessly with existing bus operators ? Sauce for the goose, etc.

[SwissRailPassion]

They need an 8% or 9% return to make things balance and currently it's 5.2%. There is serious concern that things will end badly as before.

[cheesysmith]

If they are running below forecast, there must be something wrong. Every time I have travelled on one of their trains, even in the middle of the day, they have been rammed and full of standing as well as seated passengers. Perhaps there is too many sales of discounted pre booked tickets? Either the costs are higher than forecast (and will only get worse with the higher lease costs of the IEP ) or there is not enought revenue coming in through the fare box.

[The Stationmaster]

If they are running below forecast, there must be something wrong. Every time I have travelled on one of their trains, even in the middle of the day, they have been rammed and full of standing as well as seated passengers. Perhaps there is too many sales of discounted pre booked tickets? Either the costs are higher than forecast (and will only get worse with the higher lease costs of the IEP ) or there is not enought revenue coming in through the fare box.

 

I think according to a press report sometime back their passenger numbers are also down on forecast although it wasn't clear how they were split in terms of revenue.  

[great central]

Inside the carpets are already gaining a layer of chewing gum and other sticky materials, it really makes you wonder what some folk are like at home or work

 

The paint they have used to refurbish the seat shell has, on some of them, already chipped and flaked, the seat in front of me has a big scratch from a fingernail.

 

When I worked on the refreshment trollies on some services we always used to say that passengers bought two bags of crisps at a time, one to eat and one to throw on the floor and grind into the carpet!  

I work on train and have ceased to be amazed by pretty much anything, at this time of year three bin bags full of rubbish from a two car train after a two hour journey isn't unusual, and that's just what can be easily picked up on turn round.

As for weekends when there's almost any kind of sporting fixture or stag/hen do's about

[ejstubbs]

How did Stagecoach start out in business ? Perhaps, allegedly, by competing ruthlessly with existing bus operators ? Sauce for the goose, etc.

 

Souter and the Gloags started out running long distance services with a couple of second-hand buses.  It's hard to see that as ruthless competition.

 

However, they were what one might call rapacious in taking advantage of bus deregulation in the mid-1980s, and fell foul of the OFT and the MMC multiple times.  Just one example from an article in The Independent in 1995:

 

Stagecoach's aggressive policy received most publicity for the events in Darlington in the second part of 1994, on which the MMC reported in August. The local authority put its municipal bus operation, Darlington Transport Company (DTC) up for sale in July last year. Busways, a Stagecoach acquisition, bid, but by October the Yorkshire Traction Company emerged as the preferred bidder.

 

Stagecoach recruited the majority of DTC bus drivers offering bonuses of pounds 1,000 and three years' guaranteed employment.

 

It registered on all DTC's commercial routes and began to operate on a free fares basis five weeks before its registered services were due to start. Yorkshire Traction withdrew its bid, the local authority was unable to find another buyer and DTC went into administration.

 

The MMC described these actions as "predatory, deplorable, and against the public interest".

 

Other tactics they were found to have used included scheduling services to run just ahead of and behind the competition while offering very low-cost (probably loss-making) fares (eg in Bognor Regis in 1993).

 

IMO Souter seems to have what one might charitably describe as an unusually high tolerance for cognitive dissonance.  From this BBC article about him in 2000:

 

His decision to donate £500,000 to the campaign against the government's proposed repeal of Clause 28, which demands that local authorities do not promote the acceptability of homosexuals in schools, stems from deeply-held religious convictions. 

 

Souter is a member of the Church of Nazarene, an austere branch of Methodist evangelism with some 2,000 adherents in Scotland.

 

...

 

But for a man disposed to love his neighbour, Brian Souter's business practices ensured he drove his neighbours off the road.

 

...

 

In defending his position, Brian Souter once told Scotland on Sunday "ethics are not irrelevant but some are incompatible with what we have to do, because capitalism is based on greed".

 

So ethics are relevant except when they get in his way.  To my mind that's just sheer, self-serving hypocrisy.

Edited July 2, 2016 by ejstubbs

[m0rris]

If this is actually the case, then it makes you wonder what kind of risk modelling these firms do. 

 

It appears to be pretty insufficient, but they're not the only ones. When it comes to franchising, the DfT have to sign these off and I believe the NXEC bid didn't factor in the potential financial crash whilst other bidders had bids based on economic forecasts that weren't anything like as positive as NXs and were overlooked - it takes two to tango.

 

In this case, I suspect this is going to end nastily once the full economic affects of brexit hit, but I also suspect that it will be more than just VTEC going Tango Uniform in the next couple of years...

[jjb1970]

When I worked on the refreshment trollies on some services we always used to say that passengers bought two bags of crisps at a time, one to eat and one to throw on the floor and grind into the carpet!

I work on train and have ceased to be amazed by pretty much anything, at this time of year three bin bags full of rubbish from a two car train after a two hour journey isn't unusual, and that's just what can be easily picked up on turn round.

As for weekends when there's almost any kind of sporting fixture or stag/hen do's about

 

I do have every sympathy for TOCs when it comes to the ongoing battle to keep trains clean and tidy on the inside as when it comes to litter and general filth (and I shudder to think what some people do in the toilets....) it is hardly the TOCs fault if some passengers couldn't care less about what they leave behind. Most TOCs I use do make an effort through the day to keep on top of things but they're fighting a losing battle. I commute into London early in the morning and the London Midland Desiro which I guess is working its first turn of the day is invariably immaculate, it is a contract to the train home in the evening.

[Coach bogie]

I do have every sympathy for TOCs when it comes to the ongoing battle to keep trains clean and tidy on the inside as when it comes to litter and general filth (and I shudder to think what some people do in the toilets....) it is hardly the TOCs fault if some passengers couldn't care less about what they leave behind. Most TOCs I use do make an effort through the day to keep on top of things but they're fighting a losing battle. I commute into London early in the morning and the London Midland Desiro which I guess is working its first turn of the day is invariably immaculate, it is a contract to the train home in the evening.

 Totally agree. I was on a newly refurbed set last Sunday, when some pond life spent the journey, with their Doc Martins up on the opposite seat. Staff asked them to put their feet down, as the seat was required for other passengers and they refused. Staff powerless,

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Re-feet on seats mentioned by Mike above, don't railway bye-laws cover this kind of passenger behaviour?

[The Stationmaster]

Re-feet on seats mentioned by Mike above, don't railway bye-laws cover this kind of passenger behaviour?

 

Contrary to Byelaws 5 & 6 - and two wrongs don't make a right.

[jjb1970]

Unfortunately I find rail travel would be far improved with some judicious gardening and pruning of certain passengers. As well as feet on seats it irritates me when people in soiled overalls sit in seats and leave plaster dust, grease etc in the seat when they get up ready to ruin the clothes of somebody sitting there after them. And lest it be said it is easy for a soft office worker to say that, I spent years working in ships engine rooms and in power stations wearing overalls that got very dirty and I never found it too much trouble to remove them before taking a clean seat. Indeed, in both industries you'd have a very sore backside very quickly if you didn't remove dirty workwear when you went into the offices, mess rooms etc.

[stewartingram]

Unfortunately I find rail travel would be far improved with some judicious gardening and pruning of certain passengers. As well as feet on seats it irritates me when people in soiled overalls sit in seats and leave plaster dust, grease etc in the seat when they get up ready to ruin the clothes of somebody sitting there after them. And lest it be said it is easy for a soft office worker to say that, I spent years working in ships engine rooms and in power stations wearing overalls that got very dirty and I never found it too much trouble to remove them before taking a clean seat. Indeed, in both industries you'd have a very sore backside very quickly if you didn't remove dirty workwear when you went into the offices, mess rooms etc.

 

As we say in the industry, the railway ALWAYS runs better without the punters.....

 

Stewart

[caradoc]

Absolutely, and maintaining the railway is much easier without pesky trains getting in the way !

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting little piece in The Sunday Times yesterday sorting of swinging the 'blame' for VTEC's 'shortfall' in passengers on NR for not carrying out a number of ECML upgrades which have been skidded due to their financial situation.  Actually it sounded rather poorly informed as it was effectively blaming delay in works for the Class 800 for the current passenger shortfall so it made little logical sense against current numbers although it would be a good excuse for the future.

 

Yet again it looks like VTEC seeking to blame everybody/everything else for their getting their numbers too optimistic.

[cravensdmufan]

Interesting little piece in The Sunday Times yesterday sorting of swinging the 'blame' for VTEC's 'shortfall' in passengers on NR for not carrying out a number of ECML upgrades which have been skidded due to their financial situation.  Actually it sounded rather poorly informed as it was effectively blaming delay in works for the Class 800 for the current passenger shortfall so it made little logical sense against current numbers although it would be a good excuse for the future.

 

Yet again it looks like VTEC seeking to blame everybody/everything else for their getting their numbers too optimistic.

Exactly why I dislike Virgin so much.

 

When things are new and going well they give all the fanfare with the grinning bearded bloke much photographed.  They were even taking credit for introducing the new trains that were ordered when East Coast were running the show!  Getting their name everywhere is all they care about.

 

It's just a marketing brand after all - they own very little.  Just 10% of the East Clast franchise.

 

When things go wrong you can be sure they'll drop it like a stone!

 

I was at Euston the other day and the WCML operation looked shabby (didn't help matters when I ended up on a Voyager, they still smell!).

 

Virgin East Coast is going the same way 

[Richard E]

Well, for a tanked set this 225 tonight is rather 'pungent'. Even light braking is causing a rather 'Voyager' like odour to permeate the coach I'm in ....

 

Surely that shouldn't be happening even towards the end of the day?

[cravensdmufan]

Well, for a tanked set this 225 tonight is rather 'pungent'. Even light braking is causing a rather 'Voyager' like odour to permeate the coach I'm in ....

 

Surely that shouldn't be happening even towards the end of the day?

Agreed.  I was in a Mk4 last week sitting near the vestibule and the odour from the end of the coach was terrible.  Suppose I should have text the vehicle number to report it.  There is a sticker on the wall at the end of these coaches to text "how's your journey?" or words to that effect.

 

I wonder if they have cut back on cleaning and maintenance?

 

DOR East Coast was better.  Catering and customer service was nicer too I thought.

 

Edit:  Just to add yes, I've also noticed that brake smell over the past few months on VTEC.  I haven't smelt that since the 1970's when it was terrible on HST Mk3's.  BR cured that problem quite quickly IIRC.  Can any member throw any light on why this is happening again?

Edited July 4, 2016 by cravensdmufan

[jjb1970]

Virgin is effectively a franchise operation selling marketing rights to use the Virgin name. Branson had a genuine company in his old record label (but not the current Virgin label) and Virgin Atlantic but most of the other Virgin labelled goods (including other airlines) are just paying to use the Virgin brand name.

[rs4]

I have to say, I've got zero sympathy with virgin and their woes.

 

I struggle to see why they were in a rush to rebrand all the sets when the grey / purple EC livery looked great.

 

Nobody is looking at any of these trains and thinking about brand loyalty - it's just a train to Joe public.

 

Plus there is zero competition on the ECML long haul.

 

Even the interiors were OK - although the refurb may have been part of the franchise agreement.

 

 

Bellyache.

[Zomboid]

Stagecoach will have paid quite a lot to get the Virgin brand, so of course they'll want to use it quickly. I doubt they'd even be allowed under the terms of that agreement to run around in a patched up livery for long.

 

And the ECML is one of very few routes with some genuine competition on it from Hull Trains and Grand Central.

 

Anyway, you'd have thought that after GNER and NX the DfT would have learned about optimistic projections for traffic and revenue on the ECML...

[Richard E]

Edit:  Just to add yes, I've also noticed that brake smell over the past few months on VTEC.  I haven't smelt that since the 1970's when it was terrible on HST Mk3's.  BR cured that problem quite quickly IIRC.  Can any member throw any light on why this is happening again?

Ah yes, hot brakes - also a regular odour on both 225 and 125. Actually had passengers reporting it to the guard as something on fire on one occasion.

[Richard E]

And tonight is fun, 1Y44 (16:25 Newcastle - Kings Cross) has broken down north of Darlington and is causing problems. Add to that a bridge strike at Grantham (a lorry full of steel scrap has hit the bridge north of the station near Asda) and the guys and gals at NR and Virgin will be having a frustrating evening.

 

One has to wonder what has happened to the set for it to have got stuck such that it is now showing 150 minutes plus late and that they predict it will take until 20:15 to clear it.