Bachmann Hawksworth Autocoach

[rembrow]

OK have done that comparison, the most recent Hornby Gresley maroon liveried coaches (the livery to compare with) are full price £48.99 according to Kernow, significantly cheaper than the autocoach for comparable, if not more detail, as the Gresley's have full door furniture as seperate fittings. This is a false comparison, as it's almost impossible to judge prices by comparing different manufacturers models, which had tooling produced years apart. I'm only stating my position, so don't shoot me, and I have decided that the prices are too high for me, that is my judgement. What I will add is that I don't think I'm alone, as I've put on another thread, my local shop was a significant, by volume, Bachmann retailer. They have told me that sales of Bachmann UK products with the post March 2015 price increase have collapsed. His Bachmann trade has only remained bouyant with sales of old stock maintained at the old prices. That has now reduced to a fraction of what he had pre March 2015 and its uncertain whether customers will turn to Bachmann items from 2015/16 in volume once the old stock is gone.

[BlackRat]

If they dont sell, then Bachmann will have to do something about it.

 

After all, they are a business and not a charity.

 

Money, ie sales talks!

 

Look at the new Pressflows, three in a set for £75 or thereabouts....perhaps more!)

 

Yes I have made some nice Airfix/Dapol ones and detailed them up, extra rails, pipes, transfers etc but they still aren't as good as the bacchy rtr ones.

 

So the Dapol kits are about £6, Romfords and bearings, lets say another £3, building it, paint (lets say £5) and transfers.....another fiver?

 

OK, so the paint and transfers will do several kits, but add in the build time, weathering etc........

 

I could build one for about a tenner (£10) but if you want to buy one (and it would be unique to you) what would I charge for my time?

 

At least £20, and thats for several hours work.

 

So I would charge you £30, which is more than the rtr better model!

 

Ask Allan Downes or Gravy Train how much to build a station etc .....and compare it to a resin one.....or a card one (!!)

 

Everything comes at a price.........

 

The simple answer is build your own.

 

Everyone has a choice, and if its about affordabillity, I'd love a Spit, an R8, Dive boat and lots of other toys, but unless my numbers come up.........one can still dream

Edited March 6, 2015 by BlackRat

[Ozexpatriate]

... no coach is worth as much as a locomotive in my view.

That's easy enough to debunk with a high-end coach like the BLI observation car I referenced earlier, versus a cheap and cheerful H0 locomotive split out of a low-end train set so it's very easy to come up with coaches that are more expensive than locomotives.

 

Your experience with a £60 Castle is well under the odds for a new and desirable product. New, at current prices, the Hornby Castle is £146.99. Using the same effective 'discounting' of 60%, the £68.95 autocoach is less than £30.

 

If you think there will be leftover stock a couple of years after the autocoach is released at clearance prices you will be able to get what you want at the price you want.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian Hargrave]

Ian, lets put this in perspective. I have just got a brand new super detail Hornby Castle for £60 (it was going cheap!) and I also got a Bachmann Hall for that price too a few weeks back. no coach is worth as much as a locomotive in my view. you can buy a small rake of wagons for that amount as well. I just cant see how they can justify such an amount for a single coach, 2 auto coaches for 68 quid fair enough. to my knowledge, it doesn't even have lights either. I'm not one to normally grumble about prices but this has got my goat. I dread to think how much the Ransomes and Rapier crane will be when Bachmann release that.

As we know little if anything of the comparative costs of designing,tooling and manufacturing model locos and coaches,it is impossible to make a judgement call on that.We may have a view on it....as you obviously have....but that's all it is.You also need to bear in mind that you cannot compare models that may have been designed and manufactured several years ago with current models about to hit the shelves. You don't need me to remind you that the world has moved on rapidly in social and economic terms in the last couple of years and the era of "cheap" R-t-r is over....because in real terms that is what it was.China has woken up to the fact that it's been selling itself short for too long.There's a smell of coffee in the air and the sound of howls of outrage that the sacred contract between Bachmann and us modellers has been broken.It hasn't.It's just that our pockets aren't quite as full as they used to be and manufacturers aren't in business to keep a sacred bond.They are entitled to price their products as they think fit.We have the right to purchase or not

The in house phrase about price increases seems to be about "taking the p***".If you choose to take it that way,then that is entirely up to you.Remember one salient fact.R-T-R manufacturers cater for our needs.We can't have all the sweets in the bag if they cannot be afforded.

[Captain Kernow]

Always difficult to evaluate cost of RTR over that of a kit.

 

If you work out your time in building a kit, then the rtr auto coach works out cheap!

 

If you enjoy kit building.......it's cheaper still as your time costs you nothing and the pleasure gained is immense.

 

 

 In terms of scratchbuilding or kit-building a basic 0-6-0T and a coach to a similar standard, it's always seemed to me that one is probably going to put just as much effort into the coach as the loco, if not more, due to the nature of the beast, the amount of detail, liveries etc. The only additional work with the loco is the fact that it needs to be motorised.

 

As such, I have to say that I'm with those who feel that the autocoach still represents acceptable value for money. It's not cheap, sure, and it seems to be more expensive now that it was advertised previously, but I still don't think it's a 'bad deal'.

[Black 5 Bear]

Who in their right mind would pay £68.95 for a GWR Autocoach ????? I'm really miffed now that I sold my mint Airfix version which still had the original price on the box of £5.95.

Bachmann are now starting to take the the "P" big style, if folk keep buying stock at these prices this will not stop but escalate year by year, they know the "die hards" will always stump up the cash .

Yes I can afford to spend this kind of money before anyone asks, but I choose not to on a point of principal.

My other hobby is motorcycling with a new bike purchase every three years, Triumph's costs/servicing do not go up 15% in a year, yet Bachmann's go up in some cases over 100%. 

It will serve them right if they are stuck with loads of unsold stock, which they will then after a period of time be forced to discount!!!

Edited March 6, 2015 by Black 5 Bear

[Metr0Land]

I make it four - blood and custard, unlined crimson, unlined maroon and lined maroon.

 

Chris

 

Don't forget the RTC one which was choc/cream and then red/blue.  I don't think it actually strayed far from Derby, though of course Rule 1 might mean some experimental running somewhere?

[Ozexpatriate]

... Triumph's costs/servicing do not go up 15% in a year, 

If you had them serviced in China they might.

 

It is everyone's prerogative to decide whether or not they will purchase what is essentially a luxury item.

[Legend]

Who in their right mind would pay £68.95 for a GWR Autocoach ????? I'm really miffed now that I sold my mint Airfix version which still had the original price on the box of £5.95.

Bachmann are now starting to take the the "P" big style, if folk keep buying stock at these prices this will not stop but escalate year by year, they know the "die hards" will always stump up the cash .

Yes I can afford to spend this kind of money before anyone asks, but I choose not to on a point of principal.

My other hobby is motorcycling with a new bike purchase every three years, Triumph's costs/servicing do not go up 15% in a year, yet Bachmann's go up in some cases over 100%. 

It will serve them right if they are stuck with loads of unsold stock, which they will then after a period of time be forced to discount!!!

Spot on sir! Was beginning to think I was the only one that felt that way

[darren01]

Who in their right mind would pay £68.95 for a GWR Autocoach ????? I'm really miffed now that I sold my mint Airfix version which still had the original price on the box of £5.95.

Bachmann are now starting to take the the "P" big style, if folk keep buying stock at these prices this will not stop but escalate year by year, they know the "die hards" will always stump up the cash .

Yes I can afford to spend this kind of money before anyone asks, but I choose not to on a point of principal.

My other hobby is motorcycling with a new bike purchase every three years, Triumph's costs/servicing do not go up 15% in a year, yet Bachmann's go up in some cases over 100%. 

It will serve them right if they are stuck with loads of unsold stock, which they will then after a period of time be forced to discount!!!

Well said Sir! i feel exactly the same way and i will not be buying any of there over priced stuff!

It's going to be interesting to see how there sales go over the next year or so?, was in my local shop the other week and even he was saying how the hell he going to get his customer to by Bachamann stuff at the new high prices, he also told me that sales of their stuff have dropped right off!.

Edited March 6, 2015 by darren01

[olivegreen]

Is anyone reading this thread who, like me, has Bachmann SECR birdcage stock on pre-order?  I wonder what price we are going to be hit with when they are eventually released… if, indeed, they ever are…..?

[Legend]

Well never say never. And some items are still relatively ok. Quite fancy a new 64xx tank, but at £69.95 discounted, that's not bad. Ironically the same price as the Autocoach! But purchases of wagons have ceased and I was fortunate to get my Portholes at the introductory price, so nothing new needed there. The auto coach is definitely shelved I fancied both the blood and custard and maroon ones but not at that price. Suspect it maybe the same price for forthcoming DBSO. I need one so will be forced to buy , but only one, not both blue grey and Scotrail versions. Suspect others will be reacting to these prices the same way.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Legend

[Ozexpatriate]

Is anyone reading this thread who, like me, has Bachmann SECR birdcage stock on pre-order?

Yes, I do.

I wonder what price we are going to be hit with when they are eventually released… if, indeed, they ever are…..?

They might not appear until 2016 or 2017 at present course and speed. Who indeed knows what price they will be then.By then, I can't see them being less than the £70 mark for the autocoach. I doubt I would consider more than one of each.

[Craigw]

Who in their right mind would pay £68.95 for a GWR Autocoach ????? I'm really miffed now that I sold my mint Airfix version which still had the original price on the box of £5.95.

Bachmann are now starting to take the the "P" big style, if folk keep buying stock at these prices this will not stop but escalate year by year, they know the "die hards" will always stump up the cash .

Yes I can afford to spend this kind of money before anyone asks, but I choose not to on a point of principal.

My other hobby is motorcycling with a new bike purchase every three years, Triumph's costs/servicing do not go up 15% in a year, yet Bachmann's go up in some cases over 100%. 

It will serve them right if they are stuck with loads of unsold stock, which they will then after a period of time be forced to discount!!!

 

In that case you can buy the Comet Models kit for 40 GBP and build it yourself. If you want to cost your labour out, I suspect that all of a sudden you will think the 30 extra GBP will seem quite reasonable. An autotrailer is something that most people will buy one - or maybe two of. Something like a standard 3rd class coach would sell in somewhat larger numbers i suspect. The simple fact is that all railway models - world wide - that originate from China are becoming more expensive and that will continue. It is a terrible thing that workers are being paid more in China as i am sure we all expect they should continue to be exploited for our benefit. But the government there, doubtless to protect themselves has decreed otherwise. We pay for it. If you dont like that then buy and build the kit. otherwise, think what you really need or want and spend your money wisely.

 

But crying like little children seems an utterly pointless exercise. Prices will be going up.

 

Craig W

[Black 5 Bear]

In that case you can buy the Comet Models kit for 40 GBP and build it yourself. If you want to cost your labour out, I suspect that all of a sudden you will think the 30 extra GBP will seem quite reasonable. An autotrailer is something that most people will buy one - or maybe two of. Something like a standard 3rd class coach would sell in somewhat larger numbers i suspect. The simple fact is that all railway models - world wide - that originate from China are becoming more expensive and that will continue. It is a terrible thing that workers are being paid more in China as i am sure we all expect they should continue to be exploited for our benefit. But the government there, doubtless to protect themselves has decreed otherwise. We pay for it. If you dont like that then buy and build the kit. otherwise, think what you really need or want and spend your money wisely.

 

But crying like little children seems an utterly pointless exercise. Prices will be going up.

 

Craig W

 I have the right like others to my own opinion and I'm not crying about the prices as you suggest. I just refuse to pay Bachmann's inflated prices, is that so wrong ????

 That is my personal preference and I'm sticking to it !!!!

[Black 5 Bear]

If you had them serviced in China they might.

 

It is everyone's prerogative to decide whether or not they will purchase what is essentially a luxury item.

Not according to some of the more opinionated folk on here. Yes it is everyone's right to spend their money how they wish and I have chosen not to as have others.

Are people not allowed to comment now and express their own opinions ???? 

[Craigw]

 I have the right like others to my own opinion and I'm not crying about the prices as you suggest. I just refuse to pay Bachmann's inflated prices, is that so wrong ????

 That is my personal preference and I'm sticking to it !!!!

 

As do I remember. The price rises currently being seen in the UK mirror those that are being seen in Australia. The price for a new tool HO scale diesel is currently at (in UK terms) approx 140 GBP and a 4-6-0 steam loco is approx 230 GBP. A coach winds up being about 60GBP but only available as as a set of two.

 

The prices are not inflated, just reality catching up.

 

Craig W

[melmoth]

Whenever I see people saying that they "need" a particular model that's been announced by a manufacturer, I'm always curious as to how they've managed to survive without it up to now. Or, for that matter, how they're going to cope without it in the period between announcement and arrival.

 

Don't get me wrong, every modeller will have a "need" for a particular model/models - the late David Jenkinson was a keen advocate of planning the operating side of layouts in advance so that he knew exactly what rolling stock would be "needed" - but I do wonder if the use of the word is often inaccurate or hyperbolic.

 

For me, an autocoach at £70 (or plus by the time it arrives) is still probably going to be a better, quicker, cheaper and safer bet than me making a pig's ear of the Comet kit. And although I don't "need" one but can reasonably justify having one for my layout (WR BLT) and would definitely like to have one (RTR or kit built), I'll probably be looking to get one.

 

If I can afford it of course.

[petee19]

I'm more than happy with the Hornby (ex Airfix GMR etc) that I picked up on eBay for less than £10 last year,yes it might not be as detailed as the Bachmann one,but suits my needs.If and when the Bachmann one becomes available at a more realistic price then I may just consider buying one.

[BlackRat]

It's all subjective, what is a realistic price?

 

You could apply that to anything, ......... Is a GLS Sport worth more than a basic E or C version of a car.......

 

Usually there's lots more added extras........which cost money to add.

 

One possibility is to wait for second hand used.......as many do with cars though I suspect the price of good second hand is creeping up.

 

Or see if the body, roof and bogies will be available as spares........then add all of the detail yourselves?

[HillsideDepot]

Comparisons are always going to be difficult, especially when we don't yet know what the actual price the trailer will be, but, lets take Hattons price for a 64xx which is a few pence under £70. Add the trailer, say £70, although that seems to be list price rather than discount. So, lets say, £140 for a two vehicle train.

 

However, also on Hattons website you can have a 2 car Derby Lightweight DMU for £123.21, or a 2 car Sprinter for £135.95. Perhaps a single car DMU is operationally more comparable to the auto-train, but given we're looking at two models to form the auto train I'd say a 2 car DMU is a valid comparison (£129.00 is list price for a Heljan class 128 single parcels car, apparently). OK the DMUs have working head and tail lights, but I suspect they have far fewer separately applied detail parts than the auto train.  

 

Not wishing to fan flames, but just a thought. Ultimately each modeller will have to decide what is reasonable or not. Whether it is the modeller's shelf or the warehouse rack which ends up groaning under the weight of blue boxes remains to be seen.

[tetsudofan]

Reading all this about the continual spiral of prices I'm glad I don't have a wife, ex-wife, partner, kids, grandkids etc., etc., was born a baby boomer, was able to get a decent job when I left school, was able to build up a reasonable pension pot over the years and retire at age 55...... and after paying income tax, council tax, utilities, running a car and food etc. all the rest can go on model trains......bliss

 

Keith

[Black 5 Bear]

As do I remember. The price rises currently being seen in the UK mirror those that are being seen in Australia. The price for a new tool HO scale diesel is currently at (in UK terms) approx 140 GBP and a 4-6-0 steam loco is approx 230 GBP. A coach winds up being about 60GBP but only available as as a set of two.

 

The prices are not inflated, just reality catching up.

 

Craig W

What is rather interesting Craig comes directly from the trade, I'm quite friendly with a number of suppliers and they are thinking of ending their Bachmann franchise because as one chap put it "They are just too expensive for what they are". They agree wholeheartidly that they don't want models that they can't sell gathering dust on shelves.  I understand fully that Bachmann are a business and need to make money to pay staff, their suppliers, pay dividends to shareholders etc, however there is a ceiling at what most folk will pay and I feel this company are very near to the top of it.

Hornby on the other hand, honour the pre-order price of items however long it takes them to get on the market where Bachmann do not. Is it reasonable to pre-order an item and wait 3 yrs plus for it to surface only to find it has gone up by at least 50% ???? 

[Vistisen]

What is rather interesting Craig comes directly from the trade, I'm quite friendly with a number of suppliers and they are thinking of ending their Bachmann franchise because as one chap put it "They are just too expensive for what they are". They agree wholeheartidly that they don't want models that they can't sell gathering dust on shelves.  I understand fully that Bachmann are a business and need to make money to pay staff, their suppliers, pay dividends to shareholders etc, however there is a ceiling at what most folk will pay and I feel this company are very near to the top of it.

Hornby on the other hand, honour the pre-order price of items however long it takes them to get on the market where Bachmann do not. Is it reasonable to pre-order an item and wait 3 yrs plus for it to surface only to find it has gone up by at least 50% ???? 

The thing I find amazing is that only a couple of months ago RM web was full of exacty the same posts only this time it was Hornby who was going to be dropped 'because they had no supplies'. The wind certainly changes direction quickly in this line of business.

 

I pre-ordered one of these 13 months ago at £42.40! Be interesting to see what I end up paying.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Vistiaen

[Black 5 Bear]

That's easy enough to debunk with a high-end coach like the BLI observation car I referenced earlier, versus a cheap and cheerful H0 locomotive split out of a low-end train set so it's very easy to come up with coaches that are more expensive than locomotives.

 

Your experience with a £60 Castle is well under the odds for a new and desirable product. New, at current prices, the Hornby Castle is £146.99. Using the same effective 'discounting' of 60%, the £68.95 autocoach is less than £30.

 

If you think there will be leftover stock a couple of years after the autocoach is released at clearance prices you will be able to get what you want at the price you want.

Bachmann will in all probability only make a limited number of some of the more popular models and then head for the stars with their current pricing strategy, quoting supply and demand..

Edited March 7, 2015 by Black 5 Bear