Bachmann Branchline announcements for 2015/6

[darren01]

Or you could do what i have been doing and that is buying the Dapol unpainted box vans at £6.95, bit of paint and  transfers and away you go.

Half the price of Bachmann ones.

[Jeff Smith]

Pride in ownership is an interesting topic. I once overheard a conversation about custom motorcycles. One person, who obviously builds them himself said 'where's the pride in possessing a customised bike that you merely bought from someone else?', the response was 'pride is in ownership, not how you got there!'

 

These are basically the two arguments here. The collectors are obviously a big part of RTR sales but being a modeller, and having bought a few RTR Bachmann On30 locos and wagons, I take no pride in owning them as they are not unique and anyone with money can have identical ones. Yes, they look nice on the layout but I am much more proud of the layout itself with scratch built scenery and kit built buildings etc. The rolling stock will eventually get customised and then I will be much happier with it.

[Legend]

I have a couple of questions for 'teaky':

 

• Why would you automatically distrust a company's financial numbers as reported by a reputable financial auditor?
• A Hong Kong toy company is not in the same league as the Apples, Amazons, Googles or Starbucks of the world, why would you presume them to behave the same way?

Lol try asking the shareholders of Enron that , which resulted in the demise of Arthur Anderson THE supposed most reputable financial auditors. Then ask yourselves where the auditors were in Lehmann Brothers and the big banks in 2008. What warnings did they give of dodgy investments back then?

 

The Apples, amazons etc are trying to make as much money for their shareholders as possible, why would a Hong Kong Toy company not behave the same way? That's if they can get away with it. Maybe consumers should call them to account

[Mark Dickerson]

I think they took that into consideration when they raised their prices. No manufacturer wants to be priced out of the market.

 

Simplistically, profit = volume x (price - cost) and volume is certainly a function of price.

 

There are only two variables - cost and price. Given where they are, cost can really only be reduced by making an lower quality product - which is what Hornby tried. Most companies will set their price just high enough to balance the margin they need without throttling volume.

 

They don't have much choice here.

Their US arm appears able to produce models that fit between "High End" and "Train Set" that price-conscious modellers can adapt. Yes, perhaps, different national market, but just because Hornby "failed" with Design Clever doesn't mean Bachmann should automatically pander to those who can afford the highest standard - be they collectors or modellers. But are they interested more in a particular niche or the proverbial average modeller of a few years back?

[Focalplane]

I have noted elsewhere on RMWeb that the demographics of our hobby do not auger well for the future.  The RTR companies are probably more aware of this than we realize.

 

First, many enthusiasts are now on fixed incomes (i.e. retired) and those who remember steam are, sadly, dwindling in numbers (I don't count heritage steam which does have a larger following among younger people).

 

Second, modern quality RTR equipment is generally for those over 14 years of age if the labeling is anything to go by.  The age range of seriously interested young modelers is thus very narrow.

 

Third, we have seen the manufacture of quality locomotives shift from Japan to Korea to China (I am using North American brass as the example).  Where does the manufacturing go to after China?

 

Fourth, I agree with a comment above that many who buy RTR equipment may be collectors and not modelers.  Although kit building continues to be important I do wonder if its demographics are also on a serious decline.

 

Fifth, modern houses are small and offer little room for a decent model railway using large numbers of stock.  Hence the popularity of dioramas, shelf and branch line layouts.

 

In the past I have indulged myself in one or two expensive RTR locos - a Broadway Limited SP GS4 with DCC sound, for example.  A full rake of Daylight passenger cars to match this locomotive would stretch to $700, making the entire train worth well over $1,000.  For this sum I can buy and enjoy about three white metal and brass kits from Comet, Finecast or Brassmasters which would (and will, as I have them in stock) provide far more enjoyment and satisfaction.  Heck, I may even sell my beloved GS4 if it comes to that!

 

I should add that, like others before me, I have been slowly accumulating Bachmann Branchline steam locomotives for my loco shed project that commemorates the LM® as I remember it in the Birmingham area.  They are superb RTR models that will always remind me of my teenage days.  But this year I don't see much that interests me.

[Paul Cram]

For those of us on low incomes, or, as I now find myself again, on benefits (of one form or another), we've effectively been forced at best to suspend our interest in the hobby, at worst to give it up completely. Price rises only serve to seal that inability to buy.

 

It's not the manufacturers' fault though, they have to run viable businesses. So if the costs are going up and the incomes of potential purchasers stay stagnant or go down, then those manufacturers can only sell fewer items leading to more price increases, etc, etc. Eventually the manufacturers will go out of business if the income trend continues.

 

What we actually need is for our incomes to recover across the board (not just in any one age range). However, with many of Europe's economies in stagnated failure the hope for that income recovery here remains weak.

 

(I want to say more, but if I do I'll be accused of 'politics').

Only if the hobby to you is buying things. I have more than enough kits to keep me going if I never buy another one again, but then, for me , the hobby is about making things. Even if the hobby was about operating , again I have enough to be going on with.

[Dunsignalling]

Hmmm. Bit of a kick in the teeth to everyone who bought one after the chassis upgrade then? Their model is essentially superseded by this one - for the life of me, I can't understand why Bachmann didn't just announce a complete retool, as thats essentially what has happened. Bad form really...

 

 

That goes for any model that has been upgraded more than once but (for example) Hornby don't get criticised for the number of times they have worked over their A3 and A4.

 

I don't think Bachmann would be doing this but for the amount of stick they got over the chassis-only upgrade.

 

It's effectively an admission that they don't think their current V2 will recoup the investment in the new mechanism unless they complete the job.

 

John

[Jeff Smith]

Their US arm appears able to produce models that fit between "High End" and "Train Set" that price-conscious modellers can adapt. Yes, perhaps, different national market, but just because Hornby "failed" with Design Clever doesn't mean Bachmann should automatically pander to those who can afford the highest standard - be they collectors or modellers. But are they interested more in a particular niche or the proverbial average modeller of a few years back?

Here's an example http://www.micromark.com/Bachmann-spectrum-ho-50-ton-2-truck-climax-demonstrator,11750.htmlnote the list price. Or maybe this one [http://www.micromark.com/Bachmann-standard-line-ho-standard-gauge-2-8-4-berkshire-steam-locomotive-chesapeake-and-ohio-kanawha,11673.html[/url] Or how about something cheap but DCC equipped http://www.micromark.com/Bachmann-ho-standard-line-ge-70-ton-diesel-locomotive-dcc-equipped-southern-pacific-no-5114,10959.html

 

These are considerably discounted and if converted to £s would seem cheap but it is a strange and peculiar thing, that consumer product are often pound for dollar, ie if it costs $100 here it costs £100 in the UK - just compare on Amazon US to Amazon UK.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

I stand corrected! Probably because I bought 70001 later on rather than when it first became available.

 

Thought Precision Decals already did the Colas transfers. I will probably have to have a look and see if I can renumber the Colas 70s myself because if the cost of renumbering is £20-£25 per loco and then their is recorded postage from my house to the shop and the shop back to my house which means that the total would reach over £40 per loco.

 

Thanks for the information.

[Mike Bellamy]

that consumer product are often pound for dollar, ie if it costs $100 here it costs £100 in the UK - just compare on Amazon US to Amazon UK.

Agreed but don't forget that there will be Import Duty, Value Added Tax, Shipping and Currency Conversion Costs to take into account - plus a bit of profit for the importer so in many cases the price differential is justified.

 

.

[Jol Wilkinson]

What business is it of consumers how much unit profit/what volume of product a company makes?

 

As a consumer you should be interested in:

• Do they make what I want?
• Do I consider the price reasonable for what is on offer?
• Is the quality appropriate to the product on offer?
• Is the company financially sound to ensure continued supply of their products?
• Do they have an acceptable after sales service?

This is not a definitive list but these are all (possibly with the exception of the last) subjective questions, the answers will vary from one consumer to the next. As a manufacturer you can only aim to satisfy most of the potential customers most of the time.

 

The corollary of thinking you have the right to knowing the information in my opening sentence would be the manufacturer/retailer asking you what your income is and how big your model collection is before they agree to sell you a new product.

 

If Bachmann's pricing is wrong and the new products don't sell in sufficient volume without any distressed marketing (big discounts) and/or they keep their prices uneconomically low to keep some vociferous collectors/modellers happy, then either way they will go out of business or withdraw from making products that are unprofitable.

 

Those of us that buy kits to make the models we want are aware of the fragility of the supply chain for those items. Many product lines have disappeared in recent years (some taken over, simply to become available). We have long been used to paying the sort of prices that are now becoming normal for RTR products, often know the suppliers in person because we meet them at shows, etc. and accept that we either can afford to buy what is available or not, without writing a book about it. 

 

Jol

 

 

['CHARD]

I stand corrected! Probably because I bought 70001 later on rather than when it first became available.

 

Thought Precision Decals already did the Colas transfers. I will probably have to have a look and see if I can renumber the Colas 70s myself because if the cost of renumbering is £20-£25 per loco and then their is recorded postage from my house to the shop and the shop back to my house which means that the total would reach over £40 per loco.

 

Thanks for the information.

I expect you're going to be deluged with offers to do this for you rather cheaper than that.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Agreed but don't forget that there will be Import Duty, Value Added Tax, Shipping and Currency Conversion Costs to take into account - plus a bit of profit for the importer so in many cases the price differential is justified.

 

.

What about those products sold in both countries but made in the far east, i.e. most electronic consumer goods, branded clothes, etc.? VAT may differ to Federal/State taxes but does it account for that difference?

 

Pricing is probably based, to some extent, on what the market will historically stand. Which would explain why the cost of model railway products in the UK has invariably been lower than in Europe.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Haha!

 

Its not really the £20-£25 per renumber that bothers me its that it will be around £10 postage each way which will nearly equal the cost for renumbering the loco.

 

Plus if I was going to buy four Colas 70s and keep one as 805 the other three would need renumbering which going on the above estimates would cost around £120 in total which would actually buy me another Colas Class 70.

 

The only way I could save some money is buy hoping that Bachmann produce two or three different running numbers rather than just one or is to do it myself.

 

Surely though they would want to offer a second or third running number for the Colas 70s to increase the profit for the retooled loco which would then cover the cost for the retooling in the first place.

[Ozexpatriate]

Lol try asking the shareholders of Enron that , which resulted in the demise of Arthur Anderson THE supposed most reputable financial auditors. Then ask yourselves where the auditors were in Lehmann Brothers and the big banks in 2008. What warnings did they give of dodgy investments back then?

Enron did a lot worse than that and Arthur Anderson is alive and well as Accenture, though doubtless the fall of Arthur Anderson train-wrecked a lot of good careers for good people.

 

I do take your point but to automatically assume that every financial report of every corporation in the world does what Enron, or what the likes of Lehmann, AIG and Goldman Sachs did is beyond cynical.

[40F]

Not forgetting all of us know how to run a business better than the manufacturers   or at least we THINK we do.

[birdseyecircus]

Haha!

 

Its not really the £20-£25 per renumber that bothers me its that it will be around £10 postage each way which will nearly equal the cost for renumbering the loco.

 

Plus if I was going to buy four Colas 70s and keep one as 805 the other three would need renumbering which going on the above estimates would cost around £120 in total which would actually buy me another Colas Class 70.

 

The only way I could save some money is buy hoping that Bachmann produce two or three different running numbers rather than just one or is to do it myself.

 

Surely though they would want to offer a second or third running number for the Colas 70s to increase the profit for the retooled loco which would then cover the cost for the retooling in the first place.

Is there a reason you cannot renumber these yourself. Less than a tenner for the numbers and a spot of t cut on a cocktail stick would save £££s

 

Paul

[Ozexpatriate]

Honestly, reading the last couple of pages of this thread you'd think that the executives of toy companies that make model trains are some amalgam of the caricatures below:

 

While some can be, businesses and the people who make business decisions are not automatically evil.

 

Please note I did try to keep this lighthearted. No politics, political systems or references to the workers paradise or enslavement.

 

There was one Model Railway company executive I might have lampooned like this but other than an oblique reference to yachting, he shall remain nameless and he is not making model railway decisions today.

[dibber25]

Their US arm appears able to produce models that fit between "High End" and "Train Set" that price-conscious modellers can adapt. Yes, perhaps, different national market, but just because Hornby "failed" with Design Clever doesn't mean Bachmann should automatically pander to those who can afford the highest standard - be they collectors or modellers. But are they interested more in a particular niche or the proverbial average modeller of a few years back?

Most of Bachmann's US models are very much at the trainset end of the market - on a par with the ex-Lima Hornby Railroad in terms of complexity etc. They don't compare with the Bachmann UK stuff which is generally better detailed and more complex. However, more to the point regarding the British models, I spent the whole of yesterday morning with Bachmann's Dennis Lovett and much of what we talked about was the issues of price and availability of supply. The two are at least partly linked, in that the Chinese factories will produce the items for which they get the most money. If you want the production slot, you have to pay the price. There is also a move to European-style pricing - that is, the factory expecting the same prices for British models as they get for the European models which are produced by the same staff on the same machines.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Black 5 Bear]

Thanks for the info. Never seen the figures mentioned before.

 

      Sadly up their prices to the point were they will become unsaleable to many, it isn't going to assist very much with their financial position either. Perhaps they will have to start to concentrate on lower priced items and/or items which are not a only a one off buy item e.g Inspection Coaches.

      Most of Bachmann customers nowadays are modellers and/or collectors. How many people will be willing to buy the products for children to play with nowdays?  I would imagine very few. A Railroad type range would be perfect but appears to be ignored by Bachmann and other manufactures. At a guess Hornby don't sell much Railroad? therefore ignored by other companies?

      A simple build your own kit of parts, pre painted and perhaps part assembled would at a sensible price be a big seller IMHO. The advantage is labour cost savings , as Bachmann seem to be blaming most of the price increases on this. I think this is a valid way forward.

 

Trix did offer part built kits in the 70s, maybe this is the way to go in the future.

[newbryford]

Trix did offer part built kits in the 70s, maybe this is the way to go in the future.

 

Ah - Trix "coachbuilder" (can't remember the loco range) EDIT: Footplateman was the loco range

Along with the Tri-ang CKD range. (Completely knocked down)

 

Neither caught on then.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[giz]

Ah - Trix "coachbuilder" (can't remember the loco range)

Along with the Tri-ang CKD range. (Completely knocked down)

 

Neither caught on then.

 

Cheers,

Mick

They were available for quite some time. The Triang Mk1 coaches could be assembled in minutes so I think were fairly popular. I've come across a few with the tell-tale screw fitted bogies rather than riveted.

 

One of the advantages kits had in those days was that they weren't subject to Purchase Tax. The introduction of VAT removed that advantage.

[Andy Hayter]

The point I was trying to make is that profit can be recorded anywhere within the layers of a multi-national or in fact any group company.  If, for example, tax in China lower than the UK then it would make sense for the finished products to be "sold" to Bachmann UK at a fairly high price thereby reducing the profit made by the UK part of the group.  The opposite could also apply.  None of this is illegal.  None of it affects an investor's decision whether or not to buy Kader shares since the investor would look at the group as a whole.  However, it would prevent Mick or others getting an accurate picture of the profit built into a model sold in the UK.  So without Bachmann actually telling us what their profit margin on a UK model is we're stuck.

 

The choice of Starbucks as an example was made on the basis that it was a well known example.  With hindsight, perhaps I ought to have used the energy company example on its own since Starbucks etc. come with baggage.

 

 

Bachmann UK do not publish separate accounts and their profit and loss is included in the Kader Holdings financial reporting.  This is exactly analogous with Hornby, who do not publish separate accounts for Humbrol or Arnold.  To give that level of breakdown would provide little advantage to an investor, but would be highly interesting for their competitors.

 

I am sure both companies try to be as tax efficient as their accountants and auditors (not to mention tax authorities) allow them to be.

 

Kader have announced losses in their model railway divisions for a number of years.  I am sure they will not have been backward in looking for ways to cheapen their products, but the lessons of others issue stern warnings of what will not be acceptable - like cheaper motors, less detail, moulded on bits etc.. Increased prices or withdrawal from the market would seem to be the only long term solutions for what has been for a few years a charity for modellers around the world.

[Roy P]

£400.00 THAT HAS TO BE A MISTAKE!!!!!! 

 

 

No, and it sold,as that price was actually cheap, they've been selling on ebay for £550.

This was a standard run model by Bachmann, not a limited edition... yet for what ever reason they think by repeating 80097, 42765 and 80135 will sell more...

I predict the £600 barrier for the SECR c class will be surpassed soon enough, making it worth more than the Midland Pullman.

 

Ive been banging on about the sense of re-running this model for over a year (but those who own one shoot you down, trying to protect their investment).

 

Here's another one!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-C-Class-0-6-0-Loco-Number-592-/191525631024?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c97d13430

 

This one is an auction starting at £50 - currently on £60.99 (4 bids).

It will be interesting to see market forces at play.

 

As for protecting one's investment;  that may be true of those who have paid top dollar but I would have thought that most owners of this item would have paid the going rate at the time of release. Mine was £69 from Hattons so not that much of an investment. I'm simply happy to have one. I couldn't get one now. I've no objection to a re-run if there were enough takers but how many really wanted an SECR 0-6-0 at the time? and how many are seduced by its current perceived value?

 

RP

[PaulRhB]

Most of Bachmann's US models are very much at the trainset end of the market - on a par with the ex-Lima Hornby Railroad in terms of complexity etc. They don't compare with the Bachmann UK stuff which is generally better detailed and more complex.

 

Except the spectrum loco range, shays, Decapods etc, which is pretty much on a par with the European range.

 

There is also a move to European-style pricing - that is, the factory expecting the same prices for British models as they get for the European models which are produced by the same staff on the same machines.

CHRIS LEIGH

I'm surprised it taken this long, the Lilliput comparison has always been my argument for us having excellent value over here.

It's a shame for those on tight budgets to be priced out but that's unfortunately the way the market is heading as the hobby average age increases. It happened with lgb and many bemoan the higher price putting off new starters.