Default stances of negativity

[Andy Reichert]

Speaking generally, not specifically to do with any manufacturers, or even model railways, I often see the same "refutations" which are really nothing more than the same set of assumptions and opinions repeated as refutation (although once you get beyond things like rivet counting, which at least has the benefit of being unarguably verifiable, there's very little that isn't subjective when you get to the bottom of it).

 

Being scientific helps those that understand, but seldom convinces those who don't. We have a guy here in the US, who still believes that check rails on turnouts are purely cosmetic on model track, and only act as normally untouched, extra safety back-ups on the real thing.

[Reorte]

We have a guy here in the US, who still believes that check rails on turnouts are purely cosmetic on model track, and only act as normally untouched, extra safety back-ups on the real thing.

See if he's willing to remove them all from his layout and see how many derailments he gets. That said it took me a while to work them out (I remember asking someone when prodding around some old tracks in the Coniston Old Man slate quarries).

[Legend]

I came to this thread because I noticed a member has had his account remove (XF2). Having read through this, I can sympathise with Andy and what he has to put up with. As to the member himself, I did get a bit tired of hearing how EVERYthing n the world was first's fault, and also notice that he has had some comments on another forum about the same thing from people who have access to the facts in whatever failier to provide the service he required/expected/paid for. On another section of this forum, there is some members who constantly complain about Bachmann price increase, and appear to post in every thread going about such (ps-we got the message, both of them you were trying to put forward. As a reply, you don't have to buy them).

Then again, there were post for previous years about Hornby, delivery delays and what product the did finally turn out and how good/bad/fit for purpose it was. How things have changed and most of the Hornby posts appear positive nowadays. There are still some post over there which point out some poor QC issues, but how much of these are due to some Chinese supplier? This can be likened to the XF posts about first firing away without the full facts or at the wrong persons/organisation.

Or there was another person on here who constantly posted how Dapol had got things wrong to the n'th degree.

Now, these kinds of people I would read what they put, consider the points they were trying to put forward, and at the end decide for myself. After all, nobody is forcing me to spend my money or time unless I chose to. Although as a said at the beginning I can sympathise with Andy and the moderators because the volume of posts certain people can put forth, constantly repeating the same thing even when proved to be in error can be overwhelming.

Why do you think Hornby QC has improved? Maybe because of all the negative posts on here and other forums. As to Bachmann , are you happy at paying 15% or more extra per annum or will sustained pressure cause them to moderate prices. Worth a try isn't it? As to why don't we go off and set up model railway companies ? Well it's a hobby , most of us are gainfully employed in our own occupations . And while that may not be in manufacturing model locomotives , for me it's about sourcing electrical components from Sweden, UK, Poland and China. So , it's not model railways , but we do have an appreciation of increasing costs

[chris p bacon]

Why do you think Hornby QC has improved? Maybe because of all the negative posts on here and other forums. 

I'd actually say that the increased number of faulty returns to Hornby have more to do with it than anything else.

[PhilJ W]

I've noticed that some of those whose favourite buttons seemed to be the 'dislike' or 'disagree' or other negative buttons have apparently disappeared from the forum. Or perhaps they are still here having a sulk.

[Bernard Lamb]

Why do you think Hornby QC has improved?

Has it?

Any chance of supplying figures to back up your remark?

Bernard

[Jongudmund]

As to why don't we go off and set up model railway companies ? Well it's a hobby , most of us are gainfully employed in our own occupations . And while that may not be in manufacturing model locomotives , for me it's about sourcing electrical components from Sweden, UK, Poland and China. So , it's not model railways , but we do have an appreciation of increasing costs

 

See, that's the thing. Are there forums for electronics geeks where people go into great detail about how you aren't doing your job properly and how your costs are too high?

 

I work in a department that is usually the first in line for uninformed people wanting to bash on about costs and jobs that don't matter in a service that gets pilloried in the press regularly. And it is the same PRATTs that are always made about my job. So I feel a bit of sympathy for the companies trying to produce products for people who seem like they would never be satisfied.

 

I could put it another way. If people don't like RTR products then they could build their own. Many people do, of course.

 

What did happen to the dislike and disagree buttons?

[Huw Griffiths]

See, that's the thing. Are there forums for electronics geeks where people go into great detail about how you aren't doing your job properly and how your costs are too high?

 

 

... So I feel a bit of sympathy for the companies trying to produce products for people who seem like they would never be satisfied.

 

I could put it another way. If people don't like RTR products then they could build their own. Many people do, of course.

 

I'd be very surprised if such forums didn't exist.

 

Would I (as somebody who's been into electronics for most of my life) wish to join such a forum? No chance.

 

Would any of the professional complainers ever be likely to turn their "talk" into "torque" - their idle words into actions - build those showpiece models (on a shoestring) that they're always going on about - and stop whingeing about other people failing to do stuff that they themselves are clearly incapable of doing? Even less chance.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that lots of us could say exactly what we think of those ... errm ... individuals - well, we could - in theory.

 

In practice, of course, none of us are about to - we don't wish to use that sort of language - and we don't wish to be asked to leave this site.

 

 

No. The "ex-list" is a rather exclusive club - a rather lonely club - a wilderness - for people who don't know how to behave in a civilised society (and have no intention of learning). Those individuals are welcome to it - they're certainly not welcome here.

 

 

I've noticed that some of those whose favourite buttons seemed to be the 'dislike' or 'disagree' or other negative buttons have apparently disappeared from the forum. Or perhaps they are still here having a sulk.

 

What did happen to the dislike and disagree buttons?

 

My guess is that they went the same way as the individuals who clearly enjoyed using them.

 

Personally, I don't miss them - the individuals concerned, or their favourite buttons - I reckon they sucked the life out of this site.

 

I don't see much wrong with people being objective - I see plenty wrong with people being objectionable - and I think life's too short to waste in the company of people who don't know the difference.

 

 

Huw.

[edcayton]

 

 

What did happen to the dislike and disagree buttons?

 

 

They wore out.

 

Ed

[DavidH]

 

Personally, I don't miss them - the individuals concerned, or their favourite buttons - I reckon they sucked the life out of this site.

 

For me the life went out of the site when the people with interesting opinions were driven away, along with the rude and aggressive posters. On the other hand, now it takes me ten minutes or so to check for interesting stuff, instead of an hour, so that's alright by my boss.

[cheesysmith]

Why do you think Hornby QC has improved? Maybe because of all the negative posts on here and other forums. As to Bachmann , are you happy at paying 15% or more extra per annum or will sustained pressure cause them to moderate prices. Worth a try isn't it? As to why don't we go off and set up model railway companies ? Well it's a hobby , most of us are gainfully employed in our own occupations . And while that may not be in manufacturing model locomotives , for me it's about sourcing electrical components from Sweden, UK, Poland and China. So , it's not model railways , but we do have an appreciation of increasing costs

Actually, I just said Hornby has had QC problems. I never said it was better or worse than before. I was specifically thinking of the issue of some steam loco's with bent footplates due to over tightening of screws and the disingigrating class 31 chassis when saying this (or do you think Hornby actually specified a poor mazac that would crumble and cause it so many problems? This is what I mean in saying that they are at the end of a long supply chain and need to keep on top of the QC at the factory).

 

As to the Bachmann price rise, we live in a free market in this country. If the price they want to charge is too high, the product will not sell, and Bachmann would have to change the models to reduce the cost of manufacture. Or if they are charging too much, it would allow somebody else to come in and undercut them with the same model at a cheaper price. I myself do think the rises are steep, especially for things like the bogied hopper wagons, but Hornby have also increased the prices theŷ charge as well, and with what has been going on with hornbys factories in the last few years it is sure there is no fixing of the merkets going on between them. Or just wait and see what Oxford do with their railway range. This is a new manufacturer using the same basic structure (Chinese factory models shipped to the uk). As a new entrant to the model railway world, they do not come with the historical baggage of the established manufacturers, and will give a good idea of what a equivalent model should cost allowing for profit.

[Jongudmund]

Huw, I think that distinction between being objective and being objectionable is a good one. I might pinch that for later use.

 

A similar distinction springs to mind. It's OK to disagree, but some people are just disagreeable, and that's not OK. (But the main people who suffer from disagreeable people in the long run are those disagreeable people. It's their crime and also their punishment.)

[CKPR]

Being scientific helps those that understand, but seldom convinces those who don't. We have a guy here in the US, who still believes that check rails on turnouts are purely cosmetic on model track, and only act as normally untouched, extra safety back-ups on the real thing.

Then again, I once read of a US railroad executive who thought the same thing and ordered all the check rails to be removed to save money...

[Huw Griffiths]

Then again, I once read of a US railroad executive who thought the same thing and ordered all the check rails to be removed to save money...

 

Scary.

[CKPR]

I expect a fair number of us can remember the "Gauge Wars" of the late 1970s  (P4 right, everyone else, including S4, wrong) ! 

[Reorte]

I expect a fair number of us can remember the "Gauge Wars" of the late 1970s  (P4 right, everyone else, including S4, wrong) !

I'll have to check what I was using in the 70s. I was 4 years old when they ended, so the wooden railway might be in the loft back at my parents' somewhere, not sure what the gauge was...

[Talltim]

I'll have to check what I was using in the 70s. I was 4 years old when they ended, so the wooden railway might be in the loft back at my parents' somewhere, not sure what the gauge was...

They have continuous check rails. Safety first...

[leopardml2341]

They have continuous check rails. Safety first...

Like these then?

 

http://rails.arcelormittal.com/images/products/tram-rails-groove.jpg

[Legend]

Actually, I just said Hornby has had QC problems. I never said it was better or worse than before. I was specifically thinking of the issue of some steam loco's with bent footplates due to over tightening of screws and the disingigrating class 31 chassis when saying this (or do you think Hornby actually specified a poor mazac that would crumble and cause it so many problems? This is what I mean in saying that they are at the end of a long supply chain and need to keep on top of the QC at the factory).

As to the Bachmann price rise, we live in a free market in this country. If the price they want to charge is too high, the product will not sell, and Bachmann would have to change the models to reduce the cost of manufacture. Or if they are charging too much, it would allow somebody else to come in and undercut them with the same model at a cheaper price. I myself do think the rises are steep, especially for things like the bogied hopper wagons, but Hornby have also increased the prices theŷ charge as well, and with what has been going on with hornbys factories in the last few years it is sure there is no fixing of the merkets going on between them. Or just wait and see what Oxford do with their railway range. This is a new manufacturer using the same basic structure (Chinese factory models shipped to the uk). As a new entrant to the model railway world, they do not come with the historical baggage of the established manufacturers, and will give a good idea of what a equivalent model should cost allowing for profit.

Sorry I just based it on the fact that I had 4 Hornby locos in a row which had to go back a few years ago . 8f, Duchess,Princess and Black 5. Latest acquisitions Cock of the North and Olton Hall not only run very well but are extremely smooth and quiet.

 

As to Bachmann, I am being very selective having only bought 64xx and the Locomotion C1 ( after much deliberation) this year and no intention of buying anything else. I used to pick up the odd wagon or three but no more. Just not paying £17 for a pipe wagon. I would have liked the Autocoach but I just won't spend £70 on it. I'm not Churlish to say never again because they might just produce that Caley 812 ( but how long a gestation period?) and I would like a DBSO , although how much will that be when it eventually comes out? But my purchases of Bachmann are now very limited. I expect I'm not alone. As to Oxford undercutting them, well it's early days, but I think there is potential.