RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 27, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2017 just read the engine shed blog and think its a real shame Hornby had to dedicate so much of it to dealing with more color whinging. why cant anyone ever wait until they see a model in the flesh before claiming a color is wrong? pictures never look like the real model. far too many armchair moaners who think they are reincarnated painters from crewe works! Ah but read the bit that talks of consultation with a "leading figure in the field of model and locomotive painting ". We're not all armchair warriors you know... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 just read the engine shed blog and think its a real shame Hornby had to dedicate so much of it to dealing with more color whinging. why cant anyone ever wait until they see a model in the flesh before claiming a color is wrong? pictures never look like the real model. far too many armchair moaners who think they are reincarnated painters from crewe works! Well I think it's good. This is where "The Engine Shed" shines, yes people moaned but the result was Hornby actually listening to us, they made the effort to show us a sample outside in natural sunlight. This is a good example of manufaturer-customer communication. Thanks to this little moan we now have better images and something clarified. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 The research and impeccable sources quoted must surely ease the pangs of the sceptics.Why ,when much resource and professional expertise has been expended on this...it is their job after all....must we seek to raise an issue ? The role and usefulness of photographic image dating from the 1950's and 1960's has been duly noted and dealt with.I am more than happy with what I have seen and read from Hornby R&D on this and trust them to deliver the goods with style and flair.As an 8 year old,I missed out on the Duchess Of Atholl,receiving Sir Nigel Gresley and his tinplate coaches instead (Selfridges,Oxford Street Christmas 1950 ). I intend shortly to make good my loss. There was a whole series of article by IIRC Ian Huntley in one the mags many years ago which went into depth of the issue of converting a colour into one suitable for a model. As I read the article Hornby have gone to experts who have confirmed what the correct shade of maroon is to use - its then up to Hornby to apply it correctly to a model 1/76th the size of the real thing. A example in every town and farm is the modern "tin" shed, a roof sheet that is grey verging on black when applied to the whole roof will result in a roof that looks mid grey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted August 27, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2017 My granddad says the colour on the Duchess is 'just right', and he should know, having been the tea boy for Crewe Works. So, just to check, I asked my uncle, but he was out driving the Flying Scotsman, so no luck there. Grandmother was busy printing some white £5 notes, whilst capturing the smile on the Mona Lisa. My cousin said he would help, but he's teaching basic mathematics to a foreign student... "Wots 'is name? Oh Yes, Ine Stien...." I think I'll just paint it green, just like all of them engines from Swindern.... Ian. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Everything was grey in the 1950s; colour was not invented until 1964 by the Beatles and proper colour not until 2004 by Apple. Tony Blackburn invented colour whilst broadcasting on Radio Caroline. Stewart 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 27, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2017 There was a whole series of article by IIRC Ian Huntley in one the mags many years ago which went into depth of the issue of converting a colour into one suitable for a model. As I read the article Hornby have gone to experts who have confirmed what the correct shade of maroon is to use - its then up to Hornby to apply it correctly to a model 1/76th the size of the real thing. A example in every town and farm is the modern "tin" shed, a roof sheet that is grey verging on black when applied to the whole roof will result in a roof that looks mid grey. I don't quite understand your point here.Is it your hypothesis that they stand a possibility of the wrong shade being applied to the finished model....or what ? Can't we trust them to do the job properly on a production model and are we getting to the point of Doubting Thomas ? It seems that for some the element of scepticism is ever present.If you base your assumption on an article published many years ago then perhaps it's time to recognise that the world has moved on a bit since then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) I don't quite understand your point here.Is it your hypothesis that they stand a possibility of the wrong shade being applied to the finished model....or what ? Can't we trust them to do the job properly on a production model and are we getting to the point of Doubting Thomas ? It seems that for some the element of scepticism is ever present.If you base your assumption on an article published many years ago then perhaps it's time to recognise that the world has moved on a bit since then. Haven't we seen a number of cases of 'odd' shades of colour being used as reason enough to justify this concern. Especially BR Green on King and Castles recently and some other loco last year (although whether this was varnish or colour I don't know). Interestingly the odd shades appeared to be on first issues of models from new factories, so first batches are vulnerable. I'd rather ask questions now, be assured they have looked twice and presented evidence, and get a great model, than buy a first batch with off colour, only for subsequent batches to be tweaked. The evidence is that manufacturers can sometimes get it wrong! Hornby are to be applauded over this response and their level of research. Now just hope the factory does what they are told.... Edited August 27, 2017 by G-BOAF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 27, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2017 Haven't we seen a number of cases of 'odd' shades of colour being used as reason enough to justify this concern. Especially BR Green on King and Castles recently and some other loco last year (although whether this was varnish or colour I don't know). Interestingly the odd shades appeared to be on first issues of models from new factories, so first batches are vulnerable. I'd rather ask questions now, be assured they have looked twice and presented evidence, and get a great model, than buy a first batch with off colour, only for subsequent batches to be tweaked. The evidence is that manufacturers can sometimes get it wrong! Hornby are to be applauded over this response and their level of research. Now just hope the factory does what they are told.... No ...sorry,enough has been chewed over here ....and the "questions" have been asked exhaustively that we have now to leave this one to Hornby to get on with the job.And yes as one who did take issue with some of the later examples of BR green,there have been problems.These have been recognised and have now been rectified as witness the latest releases of the Star,the Castles and the Bulleid Pacifics.To,repeat,is it impossible given the attention to this matter that has been expressed in The Engine Shed,that we can't let this one go.Time to gripe if you're not happy on delivery....unless of course you have material evidence that contradicts the opinions of those that Hornby has researched in developing this model with regard to paint finish. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewCarty Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) No ...sorry,enough has been chewed over here ....and the "questions" have been asked exhaustively that we have now to leave this one to Hornby to get on with the job.And yes as one who did take issue with some of the later examples of BR green,there have been problems.These have been recognised and have now been rectified as witness the latest releases of the Star,the Castles and the Bulleid Pacifics.To,repeat,is it impossible given the attention to this matter that has been expressed in The Engine Shed,that we can't let this one go.Time to gripe if you're not happy on delivery....unless of course you have material evidence that contradicts the opinions of those that Hornby has researched in developing this model with regard to paint finish. Although I think the Kings have yet to have their colour tweaked. Hopefully the ones later this year will have the improved colour. Edited August 28, 2017 by MatthewCarty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted August 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) If it's any consolation, even BR had the same 'shade' problem. In the late eighties, BR was still involved with the Vale of Rheidol, and as such, commissioned No10, an 0-6-0 diesel hydraulic. This was erected at Pant workshops, at the Brecon Mountain Railway. It all went well, until the question of colour. What is it? Green was the answer, but what shade? In fairness, Tony Hills (the B.M.R gaffer) tried, but couldn't get it 'quite right'. Luckily for me, I had a half-gallon each of Brunswick and Mid-Chrome green. There was a meeting, to decide the 'correct' shade. The outcome being a mixture between Brunswick & Mid Chrome. At least, that's what the client (BR) specified. This leads me to a little conundrum. If, after 30 years, I'm the last witness to an insignificant meeting, what chance do Hornby have to get the so-called 'correct' shade of maroon, such as to satisfy purists who've not had direct access to Crewe, or anywhere near the application, or finishing the product. Well done Hornby, for a least having a pretty good attempt. Oh, I Forgot! As I recall, the cleaning oil medium has a great impact on the service colour. If it's oil, it tends to slightly darken the hue. If it's diesel, or derv, it tends to lighten, as derv will 'bloom out' especially if there's water vapour (like steam) anywhere near the polished paint surface. Steam? I wonder where I can get some of that...? Happy modelling! Ian. Edited August 28, 2017 by tomparryharry 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 No ...sorry,enough has been chewed over here ....and the "questions" have been asked exhaustively that we have now to leave this one to Hornby to get on with the job.And yes as one who did take issue with some of the later examples of BR green,there have been problems.These have been recognised and have now been rectified as witness the latest releases of the Star,the Castles and the Bulleid Pacifics.To,repeat,is it impossible given the attention to this matter that has been expressed in The Engine Shed,that we can't let this one go.Time to gripe if you're not happy on delivery....unless of course you have material evidence that contradicts the opinions of those that Hornby has researched in developing this model with regard to paint finish. isn't this the point. Attention given, engine shed/Hornby responded (as result of attention here and elsewhere), concerns allayed, they can now get on with it... My point was that if the original concerns hadn't bee raised, the reassurance wouldn't have happened. I think we agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 If it's any consolation, even BR had the same 'shade' problem. In the late eighties, BR was still involved with the Vale of Rheidol, and as such, commissioned No10, an 0-6-0 diesel hydraulic. This was erected at Pant workshops, at the Brecon Mountain Railway. It all went well, until the question of colour. What is it? Green was the answer, but what shade? In fairness, Tony Hills (the B.M.R gaffer) tried, but couldn't get it 'quite right'. Luckily for me, I had a half-gallon each of Brunswick and Mid-Chrome green. There was a meeting, to decide the 'correct' shade. The outcome being a mixture between Brunswick & Mid Chrome. At least, that's what the client (BR) specified. Around 25 years ago I had to visit Williamsons Paint Factory at Ripon. On the wall in the reception were 16, IIRC, different shades of green; they were all the different shades of GW green Williamsons had provided to preservation societies. Apparently having done a GW green to a spec that satisfied the first client they then offered to the next who insisted on changing it and so on 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UMinion Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 O Ah but read the bit that talks of consultation with a "leading figure in the field of model and locomotive painting ". We're not all armchair warriors you know... That's no guarantee of anything though. Bachmann listened to a forum expert on their class 37 years ago and got badly stung. Said expert used to post plenty of actual great modelling so definately wasn't an 'armchair warrior' with a high post count. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 28, 2017 O That's no guarantee of anything though. Bachmann listened to a forum expert on their class 37 years ago and got badly stung. Said expert used to post plenty of actual great modelling so definately wasn't an 'armchair warrior' with a high post count. Explain further...if you please... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglian Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) Well I think it's good. This is where "The Engine Shed" shines, yes people moaned but the result was Hornby actually listening to us, they made the effort to show us a sample outside in natural sunlight. This is a good example of manufaturer-customer communication. Thanks to this little moan we now have better images and something clarified. Hornby have rather shot themselves in the foot though… The thing is how many people are viewing Hornby's images on an accurately calibrated monitor? Not many and the chances are that the colour they show looks different on your PC to mine. I actually think everybody has a different memory of the colour based on the ambient lighting at the time of their recollection. If you Google Duchess of Sutherland you'll see a range of images showing the locomotive in different lighting conditions but in the same position in the York roundhouse. In some images it looks maroon and close to what the Hornby shade looks like on my monitor(!!) but in others, where there is stronger sunlight, it looks a far brighter hue, more 'red' to be unspecific. A different class of course but when I last saw 6100 in daylight it looked crimson not maroon – it was a sunny day. If I had been asked to pick a historical swatch (which may itself not be lightfast) to match what I recall seeing it wouldn't have been the colour Hornby choose for their recent model. Plenty of railway artists also subscribe to a similar view since many paint pictures depicting crimson, not maroon, LMS or LMR engines. So the correct colour is what you remember it to be in the conditions you recall seeing it under, as it is clearly a hue that appears to shift significantly under different lighting conditions. Hornby have chosen to depict it under flat neutral light (ie. a typical overcast dull UK day) and because it's a small model it won't change colour in the same way the real thing does, when the light values change. Others have chosen colours for their models that show them on days when there is stronger sunlight and in doing so present a more dramatic looking model engine. Edited August 28, 2017 by Anglian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Hornby have chosen to depict it under flat neutral light (ie. a typical overcast dull UK day) and because it's a small model it won't change colour in the same way the real thing does, when the light values change. Others have chosen colours for their models that show them on days when there is stronger sunlight and in doing so present a more dramatic looking model engine. Shades of Airfix GMR liveries where a coat of varnish did wonders. I don't quite understand your point here. That a colour over a large area always looks lighter than over a small area; take the roofing example I gave. If you were to paint a model building an exact match to a sample panel of the roof sheeting the resultant roof would look far darker than that of an equivalent real building. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UMinion Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Explain further...if you please... Not sure there's much further to explain. Bachmann ended up releasing a model that was the wrong colour because a forum expert gave them information that was wrong. Said person had plenty of modelling to demonstrate that he wasn't, to use your term, an armchair warrior. I took your use of that term to mean someone with loads and loads of posts but very little modelling to show. Was that what you meant? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Islesy Posted August 28, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 28, 2017 No, that is definitely not what Ian meant and, if you read both my previous post on the subject, and Engine Shed, you will understand. The forum member in question has an established reputation as a professional model painter and is a man who's work, and word, I respect greatly. Best wishes, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 O That's no guarantee of anything though. Bachmann listened to a forum expert on their class 37 years ago and got badly stung. Said expert used to post plenty of actual great modelling so definately wasn't an 'armchair warrior' with a high post count. It's the same as the old saying, 'If you ask 100 economists a view of the economy or anything else, you will get 100 different answers'! Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KymN Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 It's the same as the old saying, 'If you ask 100 economists a view of the economy or anything else, you will get 100 different answers'! Peter I thought that the saying was 'If you laid all the economists in the world end to end they'd never reach a conclusion. :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted August 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 29, 2017 There's another saying too. Many moaners make hard work! I don't understand why people are still questioning this. We all see colours differently. Hornby have given a thorough explanation in the recent Engine Shed and I don't see why that isn't good enough for some people. If this is the reaction when Hornby give a justification, then expect to see the end of Engine Shed soon. Why should they bother when people just refuse to accept what they have said. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 29, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 29, 2017 Not sure there's much further to explain. Bachmann ended up releasing a model that was the wrong colour because a forum expert gave them information that was wrong. Said person had plenty of modelling to demonstrate that he wasn't, to use your term, an armchair warrior. I took your use of that term to mean someone with loads and loads of posts but very little modelling to show. Was that what you meant? My thanks to Paul for explaining what I really meant.Maybe you should have read this topic thoroughly before posting.A read of The Engine Shed's latest report might also help.In this case you have jumped to the wrong conclusion big time ( and I did state that we were not just armchair warriors ) No I emphatically did not mean that What you have done...intentionally or otherwise...is to devalue the opinion and expertise of arguably the finest living painter of model railway vehicles in this country ,the staff of the NRM and Hornby's own R&D team.You have also succeeded in maligning Bachmann's own team who are equally professional in making an unsubstantiated assertion,going off topic and scoring two for the price of one.Well done ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 29, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 29, 2017 There's another saying too. Many moaners make hard work! I don't understand why people are still questioning this. We all see colours differently. Hornby have given a thorough explanation in the recent Engine Shed and I don't see why that isn't good enough for some people. If this is the reaction when Hornby give a justification, then expect to see the end of Engine Shed soon. Why should they bother when people just refuse to accept what they have said. I appreciate your point but they are made of sterner stuff than that,I'm sure.Besides,there is,strangely enough,such a thing as arousing the ire and indignation of Hornby's many true supporters to rally round.....the sympathy vote,if you like.Hornby have established a productive and fruitful dialogue which is mutually beneficial to them and us....and believe me,it works. They won't let this go......and they want constructive criticism to which they respond. There will always be the naysayers.They are a part of life's rich pattern. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted August 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) Getting fed up with this debate . We know everyone sees shades differently. We know Hornby got it wrong on the green shade they were using for GWR. However since then they have reacted to feedback and changed the shade of green. To me this shows they are trying hard to get it right. The feed back on Engine Shed shows they are also trying to get it right on LMS and BR red/Crimson/Maroon , whatever it's called. Can we not just leave it at that. There is no obvious error. At worst there will be some subtle shading that someone may object to, but for sure Hornby will do a better job than I can. Occasionally you need to have a bit of faith . Edited August 29, 2017 by Legend 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UMinion Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) My thanks to Paul for explaining what I really meant.Maybe you should have read this topic thoroughly before posting.A read of The Engine Shed's latest report might also help.In this case you have jumped to the wrong conclusion big time ( and I did state that we were not just armchair warriors ) No I emphatically did not mean that What you have done...intentionally or otherwise...is to devalue the opinion and expertise of arguably the finest living painter of model railway vehicles in this country ,the staff of the NRM and Hornby's own R&D team.You have also succeeded in maligning Bachmann's own team who are equally professional in making an unsubstantiated assertion,going off topic and scoring two for the price of one.Well done ! I just replied to your post. I'm sorry that I didn't realise your posts require extensive research to understand what you are actually trying to say. Perhaps you might want to try being a little more to the point and stop talking in riddles? So what exactly did your armchair warriors comment mean then? You still haven't actually said. Edited August 29, 2017 by UMinion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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