sub39h Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 In other industries when goods are less than perfect the items are sold as "seconds" at a significantly reduced price. Perhaps the same philosophy should apply to model railway manufacturers. Geoff Endacott For that to work, you're relying on the customer base not buying the item in question. For over £200 I wouldn't be best pleased if I had to spend even more money adjusting my brand new HST, but some people have waited a long time for this livery and won't risk missing out so they've paid for it because otherwise they risk paying more later if they don't get one now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted April 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 6, 2015 My usual spot for watching Eastern Region HSTs was Darlington, I was living there at the time. However I do remember seeing an HST with the black infill to the lettering at Derby one summer in the late 70's early 80's so they did get around. It was one of those things I had never noticed before. I've a photo of it somewhere but my photos from that period are not top quality and buried in the garage so I can't provide any evidence. Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted April 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 6, 2015 Are you sure its black and not just a really really really dark blue?? https://www.flickr.com/photos/tibshelf/6482006257/in/photostream/ The difference there looks more down to the bodywork paint fading more than the blue on the vinyl logo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 This may be purely naive, but would it be not beyond the wit of Hornby and Bachmann to communicate with enthusiasts after a model is announced, and therefore during the initial production stages, in order to get as much information as they can on the detail differences of a class of loco or rolling stock before they commit to anything? After all, Heljan and Dapol have done it at times. Is it just arrogance by the big producers, that they can't get involved with the customers before production commences because they see us all as a bunch of pedantic anoraks who will just get into perennial arguments about minute details and will never agree on anything? If so, they cannot be surprised if they produce something that is inaccurate and we all refuse to buy it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 This may be purely naive, but would it be not beyond the wit of Hornby and Bachmann to communicate with enthusiasts after a model is announced, and therefore during the initial production stages, in order to get as much information as they can on the detail differences of a class of loco or rolling stock before they commit to anything? After all, Heljan and Dapol have done it at times. Is it just arrogance by the big producers, that they can't get involved with the customers before production commences because they see us all as a bunch of pedantic anoraks who will just get into perennial arguments about minute details and will never agree on anything? If so, they cannot be surprised if they produce something that is inaccurate and we all refuse to buy it. But people ARE buying it. I wouldn't have noticed the details mentioned on here (except the absence of the guard window) unless it was pointed out to me - I would imagine most people are not after minute prototypical detail and just want something they like the look of running around their layout. Manufacturers engaging with us is a double edged sword. If they are unable to replicate a detail because of cost limitations, they've announced to the world they are releasing an inferior product and they may lose sales on top of the added cost of engaging with the community in the first place. If they just get them to market I reckon most people would still buy the items in question, oblivious to the differences. Additionally it adds time to getting the product from the drawing room to the shelf and at the moment I'd imagine manufacturers can't afford any more delays. There's only so long before their cash reserves dry up and this I suspect is the reason that Hornby keep having fire sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Would be worth reading Jason Shron's column in the upcoming Model Rail. He discusses errors, putting them right, why they can't always be put right, why compromises are sometimes necessary, and even suggests that knowledgeable enthusiasts should contact manufacturers to offer their help. Makes interesting reading... CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard w Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I've fixed my exec version. The silver lettering was very obvious especially with the box showing the correct white. If you have the skills and time its certainly a job worth doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveClass47 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Hi Richard That hst looks good with the white lettering. You've done a great job weathering it down. Your airbrush has been busy! Really impressive. My main concern is that by adding my own transfers I will not produce a factory finish and for those modellers out there who want to have a pristine finish then it may look obvious that they are replacement transfers. Moving into a more general comment, I think this thread is moving in to familiar ground...Hornby Bashing. Lol. As I said I my earlier posting, has anyone be forced against their will to buy these hsts?...if people find the mistakes so glaring that they can't put up with them, then don't buy the product. I'm not condoning Hornby's utter carelessness. But what's done has been done. It's bloody annoying, but it's done! You either do what Richard has done and re brand it and give it a weathering or leave it silver. The silver branding whilst not strictly prototypical is not ugly!! The loco still looks good. Some good comments on the east coast hst...it's good of Hornby to try and do something a but different with the black in fill branding, but maybe more research on the exhaust cowling etc would have been wise. Still, for those not overly obsessed by tiny details, it still passes as a really good looking loco! I am a perfectionist, it's one of my strengths and at the sane time one of my weaknesses :-) but if I can see past the small hst errors, then you might be able to as well lol. In saying that after waiting so long for the exec I feel let down that it's not 100%! Life is a challenge! Lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delticfan Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I got my blue grey set last Thursday and to be honest I was sort of disappointed seeing the set advertised as a 254 but no set number on the nose, the Orange cantrail band which I can't remember around 1981, but sets ran at that time without set numbers - dilemma and lastly the the lettering which I also expected as white but on recollection on the numerous yorkshire ranger tickets spent going all week from doncaster to selby to york to darlington In between Deltics I did recall this type of lettering. Overall I'm sort of ok but £200 is a lot to pay for sort of ok. I think I will add the set number that will reset the balance for me, not a true East Coast set without 254 on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpeter3 Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 There are some photos of black infill blue-grey HSTs on the Eastern Region on Flickr from 53A Models, and I remember reading somewhere that the old logos were used in the production line later which might explain this. I'd been looking forward to a simple white-lettered version, especially as that was what was mocked up in the catalogue/website images and what I recall from my early interest in trains (a 3rd birthday present being a ride to London on a new HST, and a 5th birthday present being the Hornby train set of it). Perhaps Hornby could show us their photos on which this model is based? I'm certainly not a Hornby basher but, like many I would imagine, am a bit frustrated that a model is mocked up looking accurate and then appears with modifications which then *may* make it inaccurate, or at least not what was expected. This purchaser has not been forced to buy anything and has not bought anything as a result. JP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Yes. Geoff Endacott Another (possibly more flexible) option: http://fox-transfers.co.uk/early-intercity-loco-hst-power-car-livery-elements Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Perhaps Hornby could show us their photos on which this model is based? I'm certainly not a Hornby basher but, like many I would imagine, am a bit frustrated that a model is mocked up looking accurate and then appears with modifications which then *may* make it inaccurate, or at least not what was expected. I've just done a Flickr search for "254004", and, of the few hits which show that set in period, the image in the following link seems the clearest: https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3892487847/in/photolist-ozQ3Kn-9D3bNh-6VY22r-biMSnZ-bjHcuk-fKGEWC-dFdfDz-qTMwYG-nEbTdj-ngMKxA-dJNgL3-dJGMxa-dJNaWW-dJGBJT-fBZa7-njQFyT-nnu6mm-cWNTJA-9oiXFm-cUeAr9-9ER8WU-6H8Rcy-fLf9Fn-p6kyjp-9QcsV5-dtSydR-rY5Qf5-hz7z4b-hpv8Fm-ktP79E-dNXERb-beU7bF-beU79z-a8U5XW-9WPuXi-a19pNA-kEba2b-fha6WJ-f3wSiG-enYfHJ-e8rm7z-dtg5mT-nRm9JE-eeUmnN-cyAZoY-byoY4v-aU6hGP-axwhNC-amgMAA-9S1keT EDIT - the NRM's "Imagination Works Project" site has a photo labelled "Inter-City 125, 1993" (whigh I reckon should be 1983 given that it's in original livery), and, incredibly, it shows a front three-quater view of E43062, with the set number 254 004 on the nose, and with black infill on the lettering: http://nrm.mediastorehouse.com/inter-city-125-1993/print/8349455.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I've just done a Flickr search for "254004", and, of the few hits which show that set in period, the image in the following link seems the clearest: https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3892487847/in/photolist-ozQ3Kn-9D3bNh-6VY22r-biMSnZ-bjHcuk-fKGEWC-dFdfDz-qTMwYG-nEbTdj-ngMKxA-dJNgL3-dJGMxa-dJNaWW-dJGBJT-fBZa7-njQFyT-nnu6mm-cWNTJA-9oiXFm-cUeAr9-9ER8WU-6H8Rcy-fLf9Fn-p6kyjp-9QcsV5-dtSydR-rY5Qf5-hz7z4b-hpv8Fm-ktP79E-dNXERb-beU7bF-beU79z-a8U5XW-9WPuXi-a19pNA-kEba2b-fha6WJ-f3wSiG-enYfHJ-e8rm7z-dtg5mT-nRm9JE-eeUmnN-cyAZoY-byoY4v-aU6hGP-axwhNC-amgMAA-9S1keT EDIT - the NRM's "Imagination Works Project" site has a photo labelled "Inter-City 125, 1993" (whigh I reckon should be 1983 given that it's in original livery), and, incredibly, it shows a front three-quater view of E43062, with the set number 254 004 on the nose, and with black infill on the lettering: http://nrm.mediastorehouse.com/inter-city-125-1993/print/8349455.html Yep, almost certainly 1983, but personally I'd say that infill was blue. The black is actually quite distinctive when you see it, I think anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mcowgill Posted April 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2015 Still looks like blue infill to me... Do we know if the lettering used on the prototypes were solid or just the white outline with the body colour paint forming the infill? If they were the latter that might offer ane explanation of the black on 253001 if the existing lettering was masked off when the black body colour was changed to blue (it might even have been brush painted blue) and probably also rules out it's use on other sets. Anyone on here work in Crewe paintshop in the 1970s? Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Yep, almost certainly 1983, but personally I'd say that infill was blue. The black is actually quite distinctive when you see it, I think anyway. Must just be my monitor (or eyes ) making it appear black, then! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginhst539 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 i have just got 390004 and the white band between the red and silver are a grey is colour. so it looks like the hst is not the only loco with this problem of the wrong colour! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecordEdit Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I'm on my way to Ally Pally for the show today and looking forward to asking someone on the Hornby stand WHY? I'm curious to know if the question was asked, and what the response was from the Hornby folks on the stand? RE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I'm curious to know if the question was asked, and what the response was from the Hornby folks on the stand? RE If the question was indeed asked at Ally Pally one presumes the answer would have been similar to that in respect of the missing roof vents on the latest (three window) TRUB's. Just glad I bought the original release Blue/Grey power cars (and TRUB), even though these were of the early condition prototypes so didn't feature the exhaust deflectors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delticfan Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I remember the silver lettering being quite thick adhesive and the colour between was the body colour ie blue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mcowgill Posted April 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 15, 2015 I asked Hornby customer services if they could provide a photo of the prototype for the Eastern Region set with black lettering, this arrived in my inbox from them today: It looks like a scan from a book, someone might be able to provide more details but it looks suspiciously like a W43xxx number rather than an E prefix, my guess is it's one of W43002 or 003. The fence in the foreground is also doing it's best to convince me it's somewhere on the WR. Martin (Edited for typo) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I asked Hornby customer services if they could provide a photo of the prototype for the Eastern Region set with black lettering, this arrived in my inbox from them today: hst 001.jpg It looks like a scan from a book, someone might be able to provide more details but it looks suspiciously like a W43xxx number rather than an E prefix, my guess is it's one of W43002 or 003. The fence in the foreground is also doing it's best to convince me it's somewhere on the WR. Martin (Edited for typo) That's a bit scary if that's the best (only?) photo they have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 That looks very much like a WR signal gantry to me. Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I might be horribly mistaken but it looks to me like the multi-track section west of Bristol Temple Meads. Certainly leaning towards the WR anyway. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43078shildoncountydurham Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I asked Hornby customer services if they could provide a photo of the prototype for the Eastern Region set with black lettering, this arrived in my inbox from them today: hst 001.jpg It looks like a scan from a book, someone might be able to provide more details but it looks suspiciously like a W43xxx number rather than an E prefix, my guess is it's one of W43002 or 003. The fence in the foreground is also doing it's best to convince me it's somewhere on the WR. Martin (Edited for typo) Plate 52 in the opc power of the hst's from the 1980's, Bedminster park and 253005 26 August 1978 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 You mean taken from Victoria Park Bedminster? As seen here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/fray_bentos/6812867697/in/photolist-eaSMks-9doNrq-qLPTB4-bo2Jda-rKwoDt-9oMU4T-ryA7nW-68HTe5-4X8oo4-788yX3-jKgd2h-iqCokx-i9RgRb-jzngwo-9KtVJF-e5bY5r-e5c2At-cjaBuS-9Etb5K-8ZNajM-8ZRmzw-91xsDM-Guj8-6o3UGM-bydHsa Sorry, 43078 beat me to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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