Rapido/Locomotion Models GNR Stirling Single

[The Blue Streak]

Oh My God. I cannot believe some of what has been posted in this topic (along with a few others).

Seriously, some of You Blokes sound just plain ridiculous. One chap in particular but there are a couple to a lesser extent.

 

Let’s look at things objectively for a minute.

 

Firstly we are talking about an OO model, so any pretence of accuracy and being true to scale is already out the window. (Don’t get me wrong I love OO it’s affordable, plentiful, is what is readily available in the outline I prefer and I buy a lot of it).

 

Secondly, Rapido and the NRM are making something that needs to be a compromise between looking enough like the real thing to satisfy most people and still be able to go around curves on layouts that fit in with the majority of those who are likely to purchase it.

 

In addition all this needs to be achieved within a budget that people can afford. For 229 quid a pop I think they are achieving that. Before everyone starts ranting about how for 229 quid they expect the world, let me assure you that in the current market for leisure activities and hobbies as a whole 229 pound is a snip. I’m not suggesting for a minute that the cost is within everyone’s reach but if Rapido built an exact 1/76 scale version (of any Locomotive) it would only be affordable to a select few with very deep pockets.

 

Not only that but you would need such huge radii on scale gauge track work, that again the market would be pretty limited (unless hundreds of people bought them as shelf queens).

 

What really amazes me however is that people who have such high levels of knowledge, talent and business acumen, that they can without any doubt go ahead and slag off the efforts of others, would consider stooping to the level of buying an OO RTR model Locomotive to start with.

 

Surely somebody who has built and modified so many models, already has a sound business background making model rail transfers and with such confidence in what will sell to the majority of the model railway community, would mortgage everything, build and construct his own pre production version and then commission a factory to produce them at a price that will enable him to not only sell them but hopefully make a profit.

 

I would suggest that when the finished product is available to view, you make an informed choice, then if it is to your exacting Standards or not, either purchase it or don’t. If they’ve already been Pre sold and you miss out, then too bad.

 

I would say looking at the overlay of the 3D scan provided by Bill (which made some of the comments written on here redundant) that they (Rapido) have done a pretty good job and any compromise is because it’s an OO MODEL.

 

Perhaps you may like to re read the comments made by MarkSG (post 644), JJB 1970 and Chris P Bacon in posts 613 and 614 regarding compromise. (Mr jjb1970 and I have recently been handbags at 20 paces in another topic so it’s not like I agree with everything he says, but He has written a well founded post regarding compromise as have Chris P, Mark and many others).

 

Besides it’s all supposed to be a fun and relaxing hobby, if there’s nothing else in your life going on that this is what you are prepared to “die in a ditch for “ then you need to get out more.

 

If it sounds as if I have singled anyone out here it’s because they have been the most vocal, but there are a few Chaps that this applies to.

I don’t think I’m the only one who has had enough of some of this rubbish, have a look at the number of ticks of approval on Andy Y’s post (#629) compared to the chap I have singled out.

 

Finally I am sure that if Bill had realised you chaps wanted an immediate answer to the most pressing problem in the First World, He would have rushed back from Holiday via charted Jet.

 

Regards Ted

 

Edit - for some spelling and Grammar, but CBA doing the rest !!

 

P.S. I'm all for constructive comments being made to manufacturers in order to build better models, but be reasonable, sometimes you just have to compromise. (There's that word again - look it up).

I will compromise by saying that it's My belief that the old, it must negotiate "Radius 2 curve rule of thumb" could be canned, even basic train sets now generally come with r3 as standard. But then again, I don't have to sell X amount of Model Locos to pay My Bills.

 

Second Edit - Who'd be a manufacturer of OO, with all the flack they get from some quarters, you'd have to be mad. It's a wonder they haven't all gone off to make something else.

Edited August 1, 2017 by The Blue Streak

[Londontram]

Well I think it looks bloody brilliant but I wont be buying one for the only reason that I model another area/company but my sons who is a die hard fan has it at the top of his list.

 

I just hope your commissioned to do some other locos. Midland Spinner any one or perhaps the modeling worlds ready for an accurate Caley single who knows

 

As to the continual bleatings by some (one) poster on here if you don't like it simple don't buy it, it really is that easy but for fcuk sake do us all a favour stop spoiling it for the greater majority that do.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Londontram

[Guest]

I was going to begin by saying "I like a moan as much as the next person" but having read the last 6 pages of this thread, I've come to the realisation that I don't and that has cheered me up no end. Some of you need to click this link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news and see some of the real issues that deserve our concern. I hesitate to be patronising and say something puerile like "It's only toy trains", but really... get a grip.

[BlackRat]

Some have appeared to have jumped in a little to early?

 

An informative and well explained update from Rapido following a brief absence due to vacation.

 

To me,..........Even this absence was hinted at as being a little sinister.

 

Save the baying and whining for the finished model if the faults are there.

 

This seems to be the norm now, so many 'experts', so few manufacturers.

[CF MRC]

If the upper slide bar were chemically blacked it would all but disappear.

 

Tim

[The Blue Streak]

  I hesitate to be patronising and say something puerile like "It's only toy trains", but really... get a grip.

 

 I hear what you're saying. Hopefully the person's who are doing all the moaning, hear it !

 

Edit - Perhaps the word "moaning" is a little harsh, how about I use the words overenthusiastic criticism.

Edited August 1, 2017 by The Blue Streak

[No Decorum]

It is a pity that feelings have run so high and that some people have been put off RMWeb as a result. For what it’s worth, I have found both the criticisms of the model and Bill’s replies informative and interesting. In particular, it may be too late or impractical to adopt Miss Prism’s suggestion in post 608 but it is still most ingenious. Likewise, I liked Bill’s observation that the NRM stopped the idea of tender drive. To my mind, that was a good thing but it must have given Bill a lot of headaches!

 

When mine arrives and I watch the lazy con rod at work and the spokes flickering past the slotted splasher, I shall be not be bothered by errors or compromises but I shall be better informed than I otherwise would have been and I shall be reflecting on how much more interesting the model is as a result of the debate.

 

As regards the APT-E – it was designed to cope with second radius curves. The curves on my layout are gentle yet the model still looks superb on them. It was a very fine job.

[Freightliner Class 66]

Still - Joe Public will buy it in ignorance, and thereby contribute to the NRM's coffers.

 

 

..... and I think that you will find that I have nowhere criticised those who do (want to buy).

 

ummmm....

[Ragtag]

I really hope all the accuracy issues get sorted out - it just wouldn't do to have something 0.75mm out when I paint it dark green & stick Emily's face on the front for my daughter.

In all seriousness, thanks to rapidobill for the updates (and tolerance shown). It's little wonder why some manufacturers don't share this type of information with the public given the course of this topic.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Ragtag

[Hilux5972]

Really appreciate Bill taking the time to reply to all our queries/criticisms/moaning.

[chris p bacon]

If the upper slide bar were chemically blacked it would all but disappear.

 

Tim

 

That was the first thing that came to my mind, I even checked I still had some.

 

I thought it a very interesting and informative response from Bill,  the overlay of the scan shows that it's near accurate which does dispel some of the twaddle and criticism. Agreed it's not a perfect copy, but if it doesn't meet exacting standards then don't purchase and wait for Bachmann to update their 'Emily'.

I would say that with Bill being a GW aficionado we could have had yet another copper topped monstrosity......maybe even broad gauge..instead of Stirlings masterpiece.

[jjb1970]

I think tone is everything. No supplier should be defensive about constructive, positive criticism. Such constructive criticism is an important part of customer feedback and product improvement I think.

 

I’m probably more easily pleased than many here and I’ve bought plenty of models with identifiable errors and enjoyed them as whatever errors the models had, they still captured the look of the prototype, were sweet runners and looked good. I also appreciate informed comment on models from those with a better knowledge of the prototype than me (it maybe say’s a lot about my attitude to observing details that despite having grown up watching class 87’s on the WCML much of the debate about the forthcoming OO model goes over the top of my head).

 

I also think participation is a two way street on forums. I welcome the opportunity to interact with suppliers, but I also think that provided that the interaction is civil and refrains from grinding axe blades that people should not be inhibited from offering fair and balanced comment and criticism.

 

I’d stress my next comment is not about RMWeb or any of the manufacturers on RMWeb, but I have a passing interest in 1/400 diecast airliners (I fly quite a bit and like them as souvenirs). For a while I participated on a couple of diecast airliner forums and the on-line behaviours of the principals of two suppliers persuaded me never to buy their products again as they were such utterly appalling people surrounded by on-line posts desperate to be considered as insiders. That is the opposite extremity of the spectrum from people putting pins in voodoo dolls of the suppliers, neither extremity is healthy or useful.

 

On this particular model, my own view is that it will be a compromise for the simple reason that all models are a compromise and this particular prototype may require more compromises than most. I wouldn’t say that makes it a bad model, and as I’ve said if I wanted a Stirling Single then I suspect this would be the best opportunity I’d ever have to get a good model of one.

 

Just some aimless musings but fundamentally I think what I’m trying to say is that people should be constructive and polite, but that they shouldn’t feel inhibited from offering honest observations about models.

[Ian Hargrave]

 I hear what you're saying. Hopefully the person's who are doing all the moaning, hear it !

 

Oh,it's heard loud and clear.We can be assured of that.It's another matter as to whether the person/persons concerned choose to "read,mark,learn and inwardly digest" the opinions of those who object to those oupourings and find them,as I do,excessively self indulgent,couched in self righteous tone and not in the true spirit of this forum

[Londontram]

Just some aimless musings but fundamentally I think what I’m trying to say is that people should be constructive and polite, but that they shouldn’t feel inhibited from offering honest observations about model

Hmm good point and I don't think any one would argue that everyone is entitled to an opinion and thank god we still live in a country where this is sill possible and as you say if you have an opinion it should be put across in a constructive and polite manner. The trouble is that some struggle to keep it that way and it can all to soon border on bullying and become to many offensive.

 

The last six or so pages could have been covered by a singe sentence like

 

"In my opinion the cylinders are slightly to low so I wont be buying one" 

 

Great, simple, job done, know one is offended. Its his choice and we could all move on and that's how it should be.

 

In the mean time I'm just off to see if Hornby still have the old Triang molds for the old Princess to see if they will consider reintroducing it in there fine scale premier range. That was a fine model that I think still has some mileage in it yet. 

[dibber25]

 

Chris - to what extent have you been personally involved in this project? I know from reading your output over a number of years that you have strong connections with Canada.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

To absolutely no extent at all. I have had absolutely nothing to do with it. I count the guys at Rapido as friends. I have family in Canada and I've modeled Canadian railways since the 1970s. Until Rapido came along, modeling Canadian railways meant using repainted American models. Rapido produce models of Canadian equipment which are as near perfect as it is possible to get, but they are working with scale/gauge combinations ( HO and N) where that is possible, not in 'OO' where it isn't. 'OO' will always require compromise and one man's compromise is another man's unforgivable error.  (CJL)

[Titan]

As you will see from the image, the cylinders are indeed about .75-1 mm too low. This was driven by my desire to have the crosshead guides independent of the frame to make assembly and maintenance of the loco easier. We have already explored many of the approaches mentioned here (well, the sticker idea is new…) but needed to be sure that the model would first perform as intended. If it failed at that it would be nothing more than a shelf queen – with the wrong wheel gauge to boot!

 

Bill Schneider

Rapido Trains

 

And there you have it. Absolutely nothing to do with being 00 gauge or going round tight curves. Those that all too easily jumped upon that particular defense ought to hang their heads in shame. 

[Freightliner Class 66]

i dont understand why some people seem to be going out of there way to attack rapido. have rapido done something in the past to warrant this?

[chris p bacon]

And there you have it. Absolutely nothing to do with being 00 gauge or going round tight curves. Those that all too easily jumped upon that particular defense ought to hang their heads in shame.

 

Shame ? Bit over the top.

 

I saw the tight clearances and pondered whether the cylinders were placed lower to facilitate easier running, I was wrong on the running as it's assembly and maintenance,  but I certainly have no shame in thinking that might be a plausible reason.

 

This is only toy trains.

[Titan]

Shame ? Bit over the top.

 

I saw the tight clearances and pondered whether the cylinders were placed lower to facilitate easier running, I was wrong on the running as it's assembly and maintenance,  but I certainly have no shame in thinking that might be a plausible reason.

 

This is only toy trains.

 

Perhaps, maybe so many others going over the top was influencing my choice of words.

[Georgeconna]

I wonder will there be an 'Emily' Transfer pack as I might repaint my one?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Excellent response from Bill, that's a level of candour that's pleasing to read.

 

This is a subject that I have always wanted as a good running model, and have been stumped by the many difficulties attendant the awkward design features. What was Doncaster thinking of putting tightly fitting splashers around bogie wheels, just for a start? The ticket price is worth it, just to see how someone else goes about solving the many problems on the path to a reliable working model of this prototype.

[Legend]

It is only toy trains.  There's a lot going on in the world just now, so I think you have to maintain a sense of perspective.

 

Why did Locomotion show an EP if not to gain some reaction ?   You could argue it was perhaps unwise timing when the person who could answer the resulting questions on it was on holiday. Now the reaction can be of the "its lovely I've just ordered 3" variety , but equally it can be pointing out that its dimensionally inaccurate and perhaps ways to improve it . OK its criticism , but you shouldn't always perceive that as a negative . I don't see anyone being impolite in their responses, a little steamed up perhaps , but that's all .    I for one have benefitted from knowing the discrepancies and compromises  which may affect the look of the loco and Bills response as to pulling power etc . Its the same in the Dean Goods thread . There's a comprehensive list of things that are wrong with it (47 and counting I believe), which may be unacceptable to some , but to me it looks like a Dean Goods, so I still intend buying. However I am better informed because of that thread.

 

I think its true ,in general, at the moment that no one can criticise anything without someone taking offense.  The internet perhaps accentuates this as folks tend to put things in writing that they wouldn't say in a general conversation , like "get real"

 

Lets see what Bill can come up with , given the concerns raised. To me this just underlines the fact that Rapido listens and will produce the best commercial (and that may involve compromises) model possible. At least we are all better informed.

[Horsetan]

.....What was Doncaster thinking of putting tightly fitting splashers around bogie wheels, just for a start? ....

 

Aesthetics? It seems to have been the fashion of the day.

[cctransuk]

ummmm....

 

I said "Still - Joe Public will buy it in ignorance, and thereby contribute to the NRM's coffers"; you highlighted ignorance as being criticism.

 

I do not criticise anyone for intending to buy the model; I simply point out that those who have a long-standing image of what No.1 should look like may be deterred from buying it.

 

The trouble with this forum, and this thread in particular, is that some posters are reading what is not there; ie. instead of reading literally what is posted, they are ascribing motives that reflect their own attitudes.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Free At Last]

Legend, on 01 Aug 2017 - 12:29, said:

It is only toy trains.  There's a lot going on in the world just now, so I think you have to maintain a sense of perspective.

 

 

But this is a toys train forum, where I come to read everything toy trains whether that be criticisms, plaudits, imagined or not faults in new models, delays, high prices etc.  

I go elsewhere to read and discuss other things going on in the world, they belong to the relevant fora and have no place here.