Rapido/Locomotion Models GNR Stirling Single

[Freightliner Class 66]

i consider calling anyone ignorant as insulting and comments like that stem from people having a superior attitude to others. even you use of joe public indicates a lower opinion of the majority of model buyers.

if people are reading what you say wrong maybe you need to be clearer. you should not look down on any one because they dont see the slight imperfections in this model as a problem or dont see them at all.

[cctransuk]

Oh My God. I cannot believe some of what has been posted in this topic (along with a few others).

Seriously, some of You Blokes sound just plain ridiculous. One chap in particular but there are a couple to a lesser extent.

 

Please, do use my name - that's why I post under it and don't use a pseudonym.

 

Let’s look at things objectively for a minute.

 

Firstly we are talking about an OO model, so any pretence of accuracy and being true to scale is already out the window. (Don’t get me wrong I love OO it’s affordable, plentiful, is what is readily available in the outline I prefer and I buy a lot of it).

 

Secondly, Rapido and the NRM are making something that needs to be a compromise between looking enough like the real thing to satisfy most people and still be able to go around curves on layouts that fit in with the majority of those who are likely to purchase it.

 

In addition all this needs to be achieved within a budget that people can afford. For 229 quid a pop I think they are achieving that. Before everyone starts ranting about how for 229 quid they expect the world, let me assure you that in the current market for leisure activities and hobbies as a whole 229 pound is a snip. I’m not suggesting for a minute that the cost is within everyone’s reach but if Rapido built an exact 1/76 scale version (of any Locomotive) it would only be affordable to a select few with very deep pockets.

 

Not only that but you would need such huge radii on scale gauge track work, that again the market would be pretty limited (unless hundreds of people bought them as shelf queens).

 

Please explain the above - the cylinders have been LOWERED, how does that assist with producing a model that is "...able to go around curves on layouts that fit in with the majority of those who are likely to purchase it"?

 

What really amazes me however is that people who have such high levels of knowledge, talent and business acumen, that they can without any doubt go ahead and slag off the efforts of others, would consider stooping to the level of buying an OO RTR model Locomotive to start with.

 

I have a very large collection of RTR models, including Bachmann's 'City of Truro' and Midland Compound. I had hoped to add No.1 to my 'railtour' fleet but, whereas 3440 and 1000 look like the prototype, IMHO the 2nd EP of No.1 does not; (other posters agree with me).

 

Surely somebody who has built and modified so many models, already has a sound business background making model rail transfers and with such confidence in what will sell to the majority of the model railway community, would mortgage everything, build and construct his own pre production version and then commission a factory to produce them at a price that will enable him to not only sell them but hopefully make a profit.

 

Why? I have not got a "sound business background"; I am a retired civil engineer who makes his home-brewed transfers available to fellow modellers. I have no interest in, nor wish to invest my capital in producing RTR models.

 

I would suggest that when the finished product is available to view, you make an informed choice, then if it is to your exacting Standards or not, either purchase it or don’t. If they’ve already been Pre sold and you miss out, then too bad.

 

I will not be buying the model if it resembles the image of the 2nd EP that the manufacturer has posted. If criticism is off-limits, why bother to publish the photo - or are we only allowed to drool?

 

I would say looking at the overlay of the 3D scan provided by Bill (which made some of the comments written on here redundant) that they (Rapido) have done a pretty good job and any compromise is because it’s an OO MODEL.

 

To my eyes, (and those of other posters here), the overlay of model does not match the image of the 2nd EP. The overlay shows what the model is intended to look like, not how it actually appears.

 

Perhaps you may like to re read the comments made by MarkSG (post 644), JJB 1970 and Chris P Bacon in posts 613 and 614 regarding compromise. (Mr jjb1970 and I have recently been handbags at 20 paces in another topic so it’s not like I agree with everything he says, but He has written a well founded post regarding compromise as have Chris P, Mark and many others).

 

Besides it’s all supposed to be a fun and relaxing hobby, if there’s nothing else in your life going on that this is what you are prepared to “die in a ditch for “ then you need to get out more.

 

Please don't over-dramatise - what have I posted that suggests that I would ever contemplate being prepared to “die in a ditch for “ this topic?

 

If it sounds as if I have singled anyone out here it’s because they have been the most vocal, but there are a few Chaps that this applies to.

I don’t think I’m the only one who has had enough of some of this rubbish, have a look at the number of ticks of approval on Andy Y’s post (#629) compared to the chap I have singled out.

 

Again, this 'chap' whom you have chosen to single-out is more than prepared to be addressed by his name - and to defend the views and opinions which he has posted. Hysteria as a response to reasoned criticism and practical suggestions does nothing to advance progress in modelling.

 

Finally I am sure that if Bill had realised you chaps wanted an immediate answer to the most pressing problem in the First World, He would have rushed back from Holiday via charted Jet.

 

Regards Ted

 

Edit - for some spelling and Grammar, but CBA doing the rest !!

 

P.S. I'm all for constructive comments being made to manufacturers in order to build better models, but be reasonable, sometimes you just have to compromise. (There's that word again - look it up).

 

Compromise is often justified - but only if there is no alternative. It has been suggested by more than one poster here that the lowering of the cylinders, (which IMHO is the only major departure from the prototype that is unacceptably pronounced), is an essential and inevitable compromise in producing an RTR model of No.1. My crime, it seems, has been to suggest that this is not the case, and that alternative arrangement are possible. At no point has it been explained exactly why lowering the cylinders was considered to be essential.

 

I will compromise by saying that it's My belief that the old, it must negotiate "Radius 2 curve rule of thumb" could be canned, even basic train sets now generally come with r3 as standard. But then again, I don't have to sell X amount of Model Locos to pay My Bills.

 

Second Edit - Who'd be a manufacturer of OO, with all the flack they get from some quarters, you'd have to be mad. It's a wonder they haven't all gone off to make something else.

 

Presumably in the belief that it's a way of making money - I can't believe that any RTR manufacturer does is for enjoyment.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Andy Y]

Right; just give it a rest please!

Edited August 1, 2017 by Andy Y
Courtesy added

[cctransuk]

i consider calling anyone ignorant as insulting and comments like that stem from people having a superior attitude to others. even you use of joe public indicates a lower opinion of the majority of model buyers.

if people are reading what you say wrong maybe you need to be clearer. you should not look down on any one because they dont see the slight imperfections in this model as a problem or dont see them at all.

 

"Ignorant"; in this context merely indicates that 'Joe Public' is unlikely to have a long-standing preconception of what the real No.1 should look like.

 

I made it abundantly clear that the potential purchasers of this model who may now be deterred from doing so are those familiar with the prototype; I fully acknowledge that the vast majority of modellers will be happy with it.

 

I do get the impression - amplified by the accusations that I am 'spoiling' the model for potential purchasers - that many of those who decry my opinions would prefer to be 'ignorant' of defects in the forthcoming model.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Right; just give it a rest!

 

Advice accepted.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[rapidobill]

"To my eyes, (and those of other posters here), the overlay of model does not match the image of the 2nd EP. The overlay shows what the model is intended to look like, not how it actually appears."

 

Actually, it does exactly match the EP. The line drawing is directly off the tooling CADs and is used for review and artwork layout. So far, every dimension that I've checked has been spot on to it.

 

Bill
 

Edited August 1, 2017 by rapidobill

[Londontram]

Right; just give it a rest please!

I suggest we all do as the big guy recommends or I fear were heading for a lock down

[The Stationmaster]

I thought that I asked you all to play nice! 

 

First, there seems to be a general misunderstanding of the purpose of an EP sample. These are NOT representative of finished production models, they are hand-built samples made specifically to test the design and function and to provide a starting point for modifications. As manufacturers we all want to show progress on a project by sharing photos of these samples, but always cringe when we do so!

 

Having now spent a good part of my first day back doing initial testing this EP sample let me make a few general comments.

 

We were given the task to produce a unique model for NRM with three major requirements:

 

1)      It should operate well on layouts owned by the majority of their market. This means #2 radius curves.

 

2)      It should have reasonable pulling power.

 

3)      It should include as much detail as possible, within the constraints imposed by #1 and #2.

 

This sample is really the first fully assembled sample from near production tooling that we could look at and test. (The first sample was really a cobbled job from test parts). Therefore, this EP presents the first real chance to do a comprehensive review. Based on initial tests here is what we’re finding against our goals:

 

1)      The sample has performed very well around Brian Greenwood’s torture track….. err….. layout (sorry Brian!), through tight curves and complicated point work going both forwards and reverse. Objective one accomplished. (FWIW, the APT-E failed at the first try!)

 

2)      The sample pulled a mixed rake of six full sized coaches (seven with a bit of a struggle) around the same layout. This hits our target. Objective two accomplished.

 

3)      Overall the locomotive is pretty much spot on at all major dimensions based on the 3D scan data with just one exception – the cylinders. More on that in a moment. Don’t believe me? Have a look. The blue lines are the CAD drawing of our model, the image behind is a capture of the STL file from the 3D scan of the real loco.

 

compare_1.jpg

 

As you will see from the image, the cylinders are indeed about .75-1 mm too low. This was driven by my desire to have the crosshead guides independent of the frame to make assembly and maintenance of the loco easier. We have already explored many of the approaches mentioned here (well, the sticker idea is new…) but needed to be sure that the model would first perform as intended. If it failed at that it would be nothing more than a shelf queen – with the wrong wheel gauge to boot!

 

Now that we have determined that the basic premise and engineering are successful we can explore other more cosmetic modifications. We will be doing this over the next few weeks with the goal to make the model as accurate as possible while still fulfilling requirements one and two above.

 

Bill Schneider

Rapido Trains

 

Thank you Bill.  I have yet to order one having been waiting to see how well it went (not that I distrust your design abilities and aims in the slightest) and your words are sufficiently encouraging to help make up my mind in a positive manner to place an order - especially as I was one of those who has long lobbied for this engine as an iconic addition to the 'NRM In Miniature' range and brand.  Thanks for the updates and may your back remain sturdy under the weight of the onslaught.

 

And yes - it's an EP and that's probably one of the most misunderstood phases of model railway production that has ever existed.   And don't let all this put you off the chance of GWR future item appearing from Rapido - 43XX guv? 

[Ozexpatriate]

I suggest we all do as the big guy recommends or I fear were heading for a lock down

If it weren't for the fact that Bill Schneider has the willingness and patience to continue to post I feel like I would want to request from the management at least a temporary lock down just to let things cool off.

 

This is one of the most exciting projects that Locomotion is doing and even though my model railway interests don't gravitate to the east coast I continue to look forward to the order I placed when this project was announced being completed.

 

I remain confident that RapidoTrains will do an outstanding job with this challenging subject.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian Hargrave]

Thank you Bill.  I have yet to order one having been waiting to see how well it went (not that I distrust your design abilities and aims in the slightest) and your words are sufficiently encouraging to help make up my mind in a positive manner to place an order - especially as I was one of those who has long lobbied for this engine as an iconic addition to the 'NRM In Miniature' range and brand.  Thanks for the updates and may your back remain sturdy under the weight of the onslaught.

 

And yes - it's an EP and that's probably one of the most misunderstood phases of model railway production that has ever existed.   And don't let all this put you off the chance of GWR future item appearing from Rapido - 43XX guv? [/quote

 

Psst..What about the autocoach....?

[jjb1970]

My dear friend Cecil assures me that plastic models may improve to the point of being able to offer models of tolerable quality in our lifetime. Personally I think he has taken leave of his senses, I used a gauge 1 brass 9F model to beat him over the head to try and get some sense into him.

[adb968008]

Well, my untrained eye spotted a nice observation...

 

The image of the real thing, and the image of the EP, both catch the smokebox door handles in the exact same position...

 

How random is that, as it's the least likely thing to remain unchanged, they obviously scanned the right engine :-)

Edited August 1, 2017 by adb968008

[chris p bacon]

Well, my untrained eye spotted a nice observation...

 

The image of the real thing, and the image of the EP, both catch the smokebox door handles in the exact same position...

 

How random is that, as it's the least likely thing to remain unchanged, they obviously scanned the right engine :-)

 

I bet Mike photoshopped the real one.

 

 

I've ordered 2, I'm now looking at the EP and working out what I need to add to turn one into 549, luckily there is only one known photo in existence (taken at Sandy) which shows just one side, so I can do what I like on the other.

[Colin_McLeod]

I've been thinking about this one and having been impressed wibth the CAD images and the EP I took the plunge and ordered one. Long term I hope to procure/kit build/scratch build some appropriate carriages for it to pull.

 

Congratulations Bill et al on what looks like a very promising model.

[AndyID]

I think we should be grateful that Rapido is making an 00 model of this iconic locomotive (and Rapido might be a bit grateful for that too.) If they were making an H0 model it would be very difficult (probably impossible?) to maintain the overall proportions of the locomotive. It might run on "proper gauge" track, but I don't think it would make a very pleasing model.

[The Blue Streak]

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

John,

in the interests of peace and harmony returning to this topic I have sent you a PM.

Regards Ted

 

To everyone else -

Now while I was somewhat hotly defending this Model yesterday.

I forgot to say what is most important. Being a message to Rapido themselves-

 

That I applaud NRM and Rapido for taking this model on and I look forward to seeing the finished product, if it's anything like the first OO product from Rapido then We are all in for a treat. Thank you for attempting a locomotive that was always going to be challenging. It is appreciated.

 

Regards Ted

[JSpencer]

Boy I'm glad to hear this. I have the impression that some manufacturers settle for a test using just a 2nd radius set track loup with 2 pairs of points and consider that the limits a model will face.

A real layout is much more variable with inclines, declines, having to cross from one module to the next (and some undulations which appear over time).

 

The late DK Brown former friend who designed Royal Navy warships in the 1950s said "all design is a compromise" and what I see here is perfectly acceptable.

(he also said in a wry ironic way - concerning the release of a new warship type, but I'm sure the same can be applied to bringing a new RTR model to the market, that "the conception was more fun than the birth"!)

 

1)      The sample has performed very well around Brian Greenwood’s torture track….. err….. layout (sorry Brian!), through tight curves and complicated point work going both forwards and reverse. Objective one accomplished. (FWIW, the APT-E failed at the first try!)

 

[Ian Hargrave]

"Let there be light.......and the light was over all...."    Mendelssohn "Elijah".....

[chris p bacon]

I didn't see a Wipac on the EP

[wombatofludham]

Right; just give it a rest please!

 

I wonder if Jeremy Kyle fancies doing some forum moderation part time.

[chris p bacon]

I wonder if Jeremy Kyle fancies doing some forum moderation part time.

 

 

JK.....Is Stirlings Single related to Cornwall......coming up after the break, we've got DNA.........

 

 

Actually I've just realised....is there a resemblance between Andy York and 'Big Steve' on the Kyle show.....................not that I watch it of course.

[Londontram]

JK.....Is Stirlings Single related to Cornwall......coming up after the break, we've got DNA.........

 

 

Actually I've just realised....is there a resemblance between Andy York and 'Big Steve' on the Kyle show.....................not that I watch it of course.

Yes Mr Kyle

[Methuselah]

Well, I've ordered one. I have, in my dotage, developed a strange predilection for singles. Rather off my parish - and time-frame, but what the hell - who needs an excuse...? Now I need to think about what on EARTH it'll drag around behind it - any advice on the most sensible options appreciated....?

Edited August 10, 2017 by Methuselah

[Colin_McLeod]

APT-E additional trailers.

 

 

Oops sorry! You said sensible options

Edited August 9, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[chris p bacon]

Well, I've ordered one. I have, in my dotage, developed a strange predilection for singles. Rather off my parish - and time-frame, but what the hell - who need an excuse...? Now I need to think about what on EARTH it'll drag around behind it - any advice on the most sensible options appreciated....?

 

The options at present are,  scratch build some 6 wheelers, or there is the diagram 3D card kit which can utilise Mike Trice's 6 wheel under frame parts (search for the Diagram 3D thread) 

D&S kits might also be persuaded to re-release some of his kits.

Edited August 9, 2017 by chris p bacon

[billbedford]

I've started with some printed ones:-

 

 

 

 

The all third is done and I'll be printing some more in the next couple of weeks. Other types will follow as I draw them.