Marriage Allowance

[Arthur]

 

I understand the argument about the costs of means testing, even if correct, the fact that those who do not 'need' a benefit still receive it, brings the whole system into disrepute, people, certainly some, start to resent it. Simplified means testing system would weed out the worst excesses.

 

The idea of the £75:00 for everybody, a Green Party initiative, sounds fine but I, for one, would resent paying taxes so that 'swampy' et. al. could live even a meagre a life and never lift a finger.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Let's have all the relevant part of that quote, 'cause it is magnificent, and clearly delineates the prejudiced who only want the sound bite, from the understanding who listen to the full thought: "And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

 

...I have read interesting theories that everyone aged 18 and over who is a qualifying British citizen should be given £75 a week for the rest of their lives. However, there would be no other benefits whatsoever, and no extra retirement pension....The savings could be vast, and would come from abolishing all benefit offices, pension departments and the beaurocracy which goes with the current system.

The single untested universal benefit concept is far from theory, in that this money is already being spent. The massive saving comes from 'unemploying' the swathe of people earning much more than the benefit of £xxx a week (whatever sum is decided upon) administering the benefits system and 'burning' resource in terms of office space, equipment, and activity related expenditure. And there you have the first political impasse. There are further consequences, also politically problematic

[teaky]

Well I thought this might be a problem for SWMBO to get this extra £212 a year for my income because of her meagre income. The documentation calls for details of 'your' mortgage, a credit card or a loan.

 

So I applied online in her name and of course with no mortgage, no loan, no credit card or even overdraft facility, the system chucked 'me' out.  Consequently SWMBO will have to ring the 9p a minute line to HMRC+, no doubt to speak to someone less than half her age and explain that being long retired and living on pension income, we don't borrow money except from each other !!

 

+Since her Ladyship can 'start an argument in an empty room', I don't envy the person at the other end of the phone...

Anyway Bob, how did her Ladyship get on with her argument? 

[BG John]

The benefits paid to the people being discussed above is peanuts compared to the benefits paid to failed bankers, wealthy farmers and other ventures that are "too big to fail". It's all money that has come from taxpayers, but when it's paid in relatively small amounts to ordinary people, it's described using emotive terms like benefits or welfare, and when it's paid to the rich and powerful the way it's described is played down, if it's publicised at all that they're getting it. It was suggested to me the other day that our wealthier local farmers use their subsidies to compete with each other over who has the biggest tractor, even if it's not needed to do their job.

[chris p bacon]

The benefits paid to the people being discussed above is peanuts compared to the benefits paid to failed bankers, wealthy farmers and other ventures that are "too big to fail". It's all money that has come from taxpayers, but when it's paid in relatively small amounts to ordinary people, it's described using emotive terms like benefits or welfare, and when it's paid to the rich and powerful the way it's described is played down, if it's publicised at all that they're getting it. It was suggested to me the other day that our wealthier local farmers use their subsidies to compete with each other over who has the biggest tractor, even if it's not needed to do their job.

Here we go lets blame the bankers etc for everything..

 

Is it any wonder topics get locked. I thought it was a pretty good conversation going on and then someone lobs in a 'fat cat bankers and farmers grenade' to kick things off.

 

I personally don't know any bankers but just thinking about it now know of 5 people caught falsely claiming for benefits  to the tune of £100,000+ (not friends I hasten to add).

 

As for farmers (and I have no sympathy with them)  the common agricultral policy which is where they receive their payments from, is not the same as the the benefit system being discussed. 

[BG John]

Nothing to do with blaming bankers. And not blaming the people who decide to pay the bankers either, as that would make it political. Just trying to add a bit of balance to where the money goes, as a lot of discussion on benefits unfairly attacks people who are really struggling to survive, due to health or other circumstances beyond their control.

[Tony_S]

We have a tractor factory a couple of miles from here. I always wondered who bought them!

[chris p bacon]

 as a lot of discussion on benefits unfairly attacks people who are really struggling to survive, due to health or other circumstances beyond their control.

No one had attacked or criticised anyone on benefits, if anything the thread was about how you go about applying for something.

 

You are mixing up the EU & the CAP, the banking bailout of 2008 and the welfare system.

[teaky]

We have a tractor factory a couple of miles from here. I always wondered who bought them!

Yeah, it's all those bankers!

[RhBBob]

Anyway Bob, how did her Ladyship get on with her argument? 

 

Well, having been told that the HMRC would not be able to assist her 'until the summer', and that no further advices would be sent, my Wife completed the feedback form (okay, I did it in her name) and we received a response from Vivienne at 'Verify Support' and to shorten the story, here is her reply:-

 

Dear Mrs S***********

I have contacted HMRC and asked them to contact you directly to assist you in transferring the allowance.

We are aware that their call volumes are high, but once you got through, you should have been assisted. Please accept our apologies.

Vivienne

We shall see what happens !!

[Horsetan]

.....As for farmers (and I have no sympathy with them)  the common agricultural policy which is where they receive their payments from.....

The "industrial" farmers, maybe. But for the small farms, farming isn't the feather bed that you imply it to be. Many farmers struggle to make ends meet. Over the decades, arable land has been lost forever to residential development (and other non-farming purposes), and urban society cares not that most of its food is imported from elsewhere.

[chris p bacon]

The "industrial" farmers, maybe. But for the small farms, farming isn't the feather bed that you imply it to be. Many farmers struggle to make ends meet. Over the decades, arable land has been lost forever to residential development (and other non-farming purposes), and urban society cares not that most of its food is imported from elsewhere.

I agree, I should of made it clear I was refering to the east Anglian Grain Barons (and the like)

[APOLLO]

This is interesting, and frightening.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/comment/11602399/Ban-cash-end-boom-and-bust.html

 

Brit15

[Horsetan]

This is interesting, and frightening.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/comment/11602399/Ban-cash-end-boom-and-bust.html

"..... there would be many other advantages of a cashless society. Such a system is much cheaper to run than one based on banknotes and coins. Forgery is impossible, as are robberies....."

Forgeries may be impossible, but I can see a whole industry dedicated to hacking into the system to divert credits elsewhere.....

[Ron Ron Ron]

This is interesting, and frightening.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/comment/11602399/Ban-cash-end-boom-and-bust.html

 

Brit15

 

Frightening it is; but it's just a think tank theory.

 

The article also makes a crucial gaff when it says....

"Banks still exist, and still lend money, but they get their funds from the central bank, not from depositors."

 

Failing to recognise that a large part of the funds for lending do not come from deposits, but from debt that the banks are allowed to create out of thin air and from borrowing.

One of the major causes of the banking crash came directly from the high levels of bank debt that were created in this way, when it became apparent that defaulting loans meant they would never be able to pay that debt back.

 

 

.

[PhilJ W]

This is interesting, and frightening.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/comment/11602399/Ban-cash-end-boom-and-bust.html

 

Brit15

This has been going on since the 1970's, and now you can't pay bus fares in London with cash. There will still be a need for cash but I estimate that at least 90% of my financial business is done electronically. Incidentally the rise in 'electronic banking' will make it easier to operate a form of means test.

[APOLLO]

In my earlier post I described the process creating an account through Experian. They know everything already, your bank accounts and all credit card details, payments made recently etc etc.

 

There will be no end to this "technology and information development".

 

Also if you fall afoul of the system, they can / would / will "electronically" dis-connect & terminate you.

 

Frightening future, sometimes I am glad to be old and remember pounds, shillings and pence !!

 

Brit15

[Pugsley]

Frightening it is; but it's just a think tank theory.

 

The article also makes a crucial gaff when it says....

"Banks still exist, and still lend money, but they get their funds from the central bank, not from depositors."

 

Failing to recognise that a large part of the funds for lending do not come from deposits, but from debt that the banks are allowed to create out of thin air and from borrowing.

One of the major causes of the banking crash came directly from the high levels of bank debt that were created in this way, when it became apparent that defaulting loans meant they would never be able to pay that debt back.

 

 

.

The article is partially correct in its assertion - the Funding for Lending Scheme (FLS) is a BoE bailout to the major banks to the tune of £55 billion. It's the reason why interest rates on saving accounts plummeted late 2012/early 2013, after they'd been creeping up quite nicely. This has effectively replaced deposits as the reserve that allows the banks to loan the money into thin air.

 

As an aside, the FLS was supposed to be used for lendng to SMEs, but over the course of it lending to enterprise has consistently decreased, the draw of pumping up house prices seemingly too hard to resist...

[Pugsley]

In my earlier post I described the process creating an account through Experian. They know everything already, your bank accounts and all credit card details, payments made recently etc etc.

 

There will be no end to this "technology and information development".

 

Also if you fall afoul of the system, they can / would / will "electronically" dis-connect & terminate you.

 

Frightening future, sometimes I am glad to be old and remember pounds, shillings and pence !!

I agree. Many years ago I saw a small feature in a paper years ago, possibly in the Telegraph, which outlined a story of how someone, in this kind of environment, could be judged as being a threat to 'the system' in error and systematically cut off from access to money and services, etc. It was interesting, frightening and seemingly plausible enough to have stuck with me for all this time.

 

Orwell was close with 1984, he was just about 35 years out...

[Arthur]

discussion on benefits unfairly attacks people who are really struggling to survive, due to health or other circumstances beyond their control.

No it is not. It is a discussion about about fairness in the system. It helps no one if an open discussion cannot be had without accusations like that. Nobody here has said that those in need should not be helped, rather, we should not be giving benefits to the wealthy and I included myself in that category with regards to the heating allowance.

 

I am no bleeding heart liberal but I make a monthly payment to the Salvation Army because I believe that they directly help some of the most vulnerable and needy in our society. I mention that only to demonstrate that just because you question aspects of the benefits system does not mean that you do not care about those in need.

[BG John]

No it is not. It is a discussion about about fairness in the system. It helps no one if an open discussion cannot be had without accusations like that. Nobody here has said that those in need should not be helped, rather, we should not be giving benefits to the wealthy and I included myself in that category with regards to the heating allowance.

My quote was edited to make it appear to say something different to what I was actually saying. I said ".... a lot of discussion on benefits unfairly attacks people who are really struggling to survive......". I wasn't suggesting this particular discussion was doing that, but it's how a lot of these discussions tend to go. From what I can make out, the benefits paid to the more wealthy individuals (as well as those who really are scroungers), is relatively insignificant when compared with the total paid out in support of everything from the short term unemployed to failing industries, and it's often more cost effective to pay it than to means test everything.

 

If anything, the biggest unfairness is the hoops that people have to jump through to get the support they need, not that some people get money they can do without. After all, if they get a bit extra, they'll tend to spend it, which boosts the economy, and is probably a far more effective way of applying "quantitative easing" than giving it straight to banks to pay off loans they've made from money they magicked out of thin air. Spend your heating allowance buying goods and services from local businesses.

[chris p bacon]

. Spend your heating allowance buying goods and services from local businesses.

Hmmm....and I thought it was to offset the extra fuel for heating.......

 

I am a believer in the welfare state as I think there should always be a safety net to catch people when then struggle, but sadly as I walk through what is a small town in a prosperous area in the morning, there is a group of people I went to school with, who have never worked (30+ years) sitting outside a coffee shop and smoking, all are on benefits and have no problem telling anyone what they get and what they are entitled to and how great it is.

I actually feel a bit sad for them but can understand how others start to harden to the benefits culture we have amongst some.

[alastairq]

I should have applied for my bus pass at least 3 years ago or more.

 

But I haven't.

 

Not a conscious act on my part....[although, with age, can come forgetfulness?]  but simply because the system of application s so very clunky....I have to apply on paper, in person, attending a local authority office. Which is a logistical pain, given where I live. 

 

Don't forget, the bus companies receive  a grant which is supposed to compensate them for the free pass system.

 

Do they need it? In the past, I think, very much so. At least as much a the farmer who banks his CAP grant?

 

The winter fuel allowance [£200]...I have found very useful indeed.  Even though I work...earning somewhere in the region of the upper limit of the 'low pay' bracket.  

 

Seeing as I am paid from the public purse anyway....and successive governments, for many years now, have either refused to increase public sector pay, or left the increases at a derisory percentage...such that, my actual spending power has decreased alarmingly in the past 8 years or so....then that little extra, at an appropriate time of year, has been a 'life-saver', so to speak.

 

However, I don't consider myself to be badly-off.....compared to admin grades, anyway.

 

Put it this way, in financial terms,  I would not even consider being able to randomly purchase a Hornby or Bachmann locomotive...let alone do cheque-book O gauge!

 

So, bearing that in mind, I'd like to retain the  winter fuel allowance. I couldn't care less whether a minority actually don't need it. Having been employed since the age of 16, one way or another, I feel it is about time I recovered something of what I have ploughed into, what I see as, a morally bankrupt State?

 

[i also have no issues with Bankrutpcy, either....unlike far too many folk?]

[PhilJ W]

I have a bus pass which I use occasionally such as when I take the car in for a service, I also sometimes use it when using the car is impracticable. Only a short while ago I used to depend on the winter fuel allowance but by altering my financial arrangements I am now much better off and I must admit I don't really need it any more but that does not mean that I might not require it in future, the same of course still applies to my bus pass.

[The Stationmaster]

I have one major grouse about the benefits system - a lot of it is paid to people who have never put anything into society or the national wealth (such as it is).  Helping people 'when they fall on hard times' is an excellent idea; supporting them in  a particular lifestyle at my expense, when they are not prepared to work for it, is not.

 

Equally I don't like my Old Age Pension being referred to as 'a benefit' - it is not, I paid in towards it.  Yes, I appreciate the reality of the situation but I paid National Insurance - that was a contribution to my state pension in just the same way as I contributed out of my salary to my employment pensions.  It is my view that understanding that you are contributing towards something helps you to better value and appreciate it rather than simply getting it because you happen to be in the ration queue.  Thus I would like to see some benefits and allowances made conditional on qualification by a period of contribution, but probably with exemption for those leaving school and unable to find a job.

 

As far as extra benefits for pensioners are concerned (and indeed many other so called benefits) regrettably our politicos have undoubtedly abused the system by using it, in effect, to buy votes - using our money.  However if they decide to give me something, such as the so called Winter Fuel Allowance (which it sometimes actually is) I'm happy to take, it helps pay what Mrs Stationmaster gives to various charities and with other things.  But we don't have 'bus passes notwithstanding there is a reasonable 'bus service in our area (and much of it does not parallel rail routes ).  Obviously we have free rail travel (and we have a station locally) but I slogged long & hard in an industry with - back then - abysmal wages/salaries to earn what I have got in that respect.