Ilkley locomotive shed, 4mm P4 1950s

[LMS29]

Hello,

 

I am a new member of RMWeb and just found this thread. I was raised in Ilkley and as a retirement activity I am building a OO model of Ilkley Station and environs around the 1950's. and have enjoyed reading this topic.

 

I have no personal memories of the water tower. I have had a look in both the Railways of Wharfedale and Otley and Ilkley Joint Railway books mentioned by Ron and they do not shed any more light on the materials used to build the water tower and I like you I have yet to find a photograph. 

 

Out of interest, I am using the card model of engine shed etc. from Metcalfe to fill that gap until I can obtain enough detailed information to build my own.

 

Tom

[landscapes]

Hi

 

I have also just found your thread, may I ask a question please, on your first page you have your idea laid out full size using Templot.

 

I also have a MPD thread called Haymarket 64B I am trying to get my track plan plotted and printed the same way.

 

Did you do this yourself or did someone plot it out for you.

 

I cannot use Templot as I have an Apple Mac and it's not compatible.

 

Regards

 

David

[Craigw]

I cannot use Templot as I have an Apple Mac and it's not compatible.

 

Regards

 

David

David,

 

Download a program called Crossover. Templot will work via that method. Otherwise install bootcamp and install windows.

 

Either approach works.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Steve Taylor]

David,

 

Download a program called Crossover. Templot will work via that method. Otherwise install bootcamp and install windows.

 

Either approach works.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

and proof it works......

Broomielaw in P4, track reverse-engineered in templot over the engineers 1:500 OS sheet: so what? Well its templot on crossover on a macbook pro running el capitan. Use a very lo-res version of your map to overlay btw - it slows things down a little at times. I have building templates from this but what you see is the board planning sheets where the templot scheme was exported as a pdf and overlaid onto the correctly rescaled OS scan in photoshop and then re-exported as another set of pdfs for printing.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Steve Taylor

[Jub45565]

Sorry Ive been quiet/not replying. Everythings been a tad hectic in the run up to year end...

 

I was planning on using the Metcalfe shed as a stand in, but the lack of a central pillar in the doorway makes me think it might be narrower overall and so not work with the same track geometries - I may well be wrong though!

 

I did draw it in Templot - I find it very user friendly these days (if anyone tried it originally & got put off, please have another go!). Not that there is any complex trackwork on this design. I'm glad Craig & Steve could help re Apple IT - it isnt something I've tried to do.

 

Merry Christmas to all - hopefully I'll have a couple of days around New Year in which to make some progress.

 

Cheers,

Pete

[LMS29]

Sorry Ive been quiet/not replying. Everythings been a tad hectic in the run up to year end...

 

I was planning on using the Metcalfe shed as a stand in, but the lack of a central pillar in the doorway makes me think it might be narrower overall and so not work with the same track geometries - I may well be wrong though!

 

I did draw it in Templot - I find it very user friendly these days (if anyone tried it originally & got put off, please have another go!). Not that there is any complex trackwork on this design. I'm glad Craig & Steve could help re Apple IT - it isnt something I've tried to do.

 

Merry Christmas to all - hopefully I'll have a couple of days around New Year in which to make some progress.

 

Cheers,

Pete

Pete,

 

If you let me have your overall measurement across the two tracks plus clearance, I am happy to measure my shed and let you know if it will work,

 

Tom

[Jub45565]

Thanks Tom,

 

I'm currently at my sisters (my nephews first Christmas) so off the top of my head my track is at 70mm centres - but I can confirm nearer new year!

 

Cheers,

Pete

[MartinWales]

Have a good 'un Pete!

[Jub45565]

Pete,

 

If you let me have your overall measurement across the two tracks plus clearance, I am happy to measure my shed and let you know if it will work,

 

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

 

My track centres are at 70mm, with sleeper end to sleeper end measuring 105mm, if that would fit? I'm not quite sure what I'll do about the shed in the short or long term - as noted earlier by Andrew (in post 49) the bricks used are very shallow, & I cant think of seeing any plasticard (or even paper) which depicts this bond.

 

I am currently looking at pits, and the first thing to note is that of the 5 pits there are 3 different constructions!

 

Firstly, the pit outside on the near shed road (when viewed from the mainline) used bullhead rail which looks to be sat on strengthened I beams, as can be seen bottom left in this photo:

http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/historic/fws108.jpg

 

Inside the shed, the rail is flat bottom and sat on bricks as depicted here.  I assume these pits ran pretty much full length of the shed...

http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/historic/fws084.jpg

 

On the coaling road to the side of the shed, and outside on the second shed road, is a third type of pit of which I don't have an online photo to lin, but there is one in 'The Otley and Ilkley Joint Railway' by Smith & Bairstow (P53) showing bullhead rail on stone coping stones.

 

There is a good article on pits in the LMS Journal preview edition, which suggests that the flat bottom rail was 4 7/8" high, with a 5 3/4" wide foot.  This scales to 65 thou high with a 75 thou foot, which doesnt appear to be available anywhere.  Most small section rail is aimed at heavier rail in smaller gauges (so has a much narrower foot and railhead), with the two I am aware of being Kalgarin code 83 (with an 80 thou foot) or the C&L code 55 with a 55 thou foot.  I have some of the C&L rail, so think I'll use that.

 

I'm not quite sure where the transition between bullhead and flat bottom rail occurred, I can't see it in the photos so I'm assuming just inside the entrance.  I also don't know what they did at the transition.  I've played with various types during my time platelaying on the Ffestiniog (where the last main line bullhead is being replaced this winter :-(  ) but appreciate that things are sometimes a bit different on the big railway, and in the 50s.  Would it have used a special fishplate, or be a welded transition section?  I'll dig through photos of other sheds to see whether they can shed (sorry) any light on things.

[Jub45565]

Well a bit of progress...

 

I have built a cassette, nothing new or clever, but it does so happen that using 6mm ply and 1.5mm angle, it works out level with my 1/8" cork, 1/16" sleepers and bullhead track - magic!

 

 

That made the next bit easier than I expected. The prototype did have a gradient up to the mainline, and I thought this would need replicating, but it doesn't.

 

 

 

 

So the cassette locating blocks, and mating half, have also been assembled.  As has the cork been laid to accomodate the feed track.

 

 

I think this section will use the flexitrack.  Partially because I have it, and its quicker, but it will also allow a comparison between it and the ply track once its all in and weathered, to see whether it makes enough difference to hand build it all in the future.  This is a test layout afterall.

 

I have made some cutouts for pits, but will probably make my way through the final 1.5 points and complete the first outside road before building the pits.

 

Cheers,

[Portchullin Tatty]

Pete,

 

I would get you turntable in and going, it is much easier to offer the approach track up to it than try and get it to match the approach track.

[Jub45565]

Mark,

 

You're quite correct - but I've got a few other bits of metalwork to clear from my workbench before I'm releasing the turntable into it.  There is a bit of leeway in the turntable road track, and the well could also be moved across slightly if necessary, but you are right. I should crack on with it sooner rather than later!

 

Cheers,

[LMS29]

Pete,

 

I have measured the Metcalfe model and the single entrance spans 10.5cm.  There is an inner column of bricks at either side of the entrance which could be removed to give you a bit more room, but it looks tight.

 

To help, I have included L&Y 2-4-2T and an Ivatt 2-6-2T. As you can see from the photograph I am also short of space and have included a watering point but have yet to model the pits.

 

All the best, Tom

Edited January 11, 2016 by LMS29

[Kiwirail]

Hello chaps.  Just back in NZ after a rather wet trip back to Blighty for Christmas.

 

While I was over there I was rather hoping to sneak up to Ilkley for a fact-finding mission, but alas - there was not enough time once we had ticked off everything else everybody wanted to do.

 

Was wondering if anyone could shed any light on the operation of the coal drops on Railway Road?  I have several photos of them in their trackless state in about 1980, but don't know what the arrangement was for supporting the track across the stone piers.  Likewise I'm not sure what happened regarding the coal once it had been unloaded, as there is next to no clearance between the bins and the edge of the road.  Wouldn't the coal spill out everywhere, or were there timbers placed across the mouths of each compartment?  How did the coal merchant then load up his wagons?  Presumably by hand, in which case at least one lane of the public road would have been more or less blocked while the loading was going on.  If anyone has any recollections of the process here I'd be grateful.

 

There was a siding leading back from the coal drops which served the signal box (lamp oil?).  This was apparently worked by pulling a wagon with a rope from the adjacent running line, as the coal drop siding would not have been rated to carry a locomotive.  I read about this somewhere but cannot recall in which book.

 

Great to see more progress Pete, and welcome to the thread Tom.  Got myself a copy of the LMS sheds book.  Fascinating and thanks for the lead.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[LMS29]

Andrew,

 

As I remember it the coal drops operated by allowing coal to fall directly into lorries backed into the bays below, there may have been to occassional spillage but  I do not remember regular heaps of coal spilling out onto the road.  There was a Coal Merchant call Sam Tipping  and he operated from a yard on Little Lane (a couple of hundred yards away from these drops).  I cannot remember any more detail about the loading etc.

 

I understood that the back facing spur was associated with tar loading from the gas works into the old rectangular tar wagons. I have read about this and the practise of towing wagons to prevent the over loading of the coal drops but it is not something that I remember. I would be interested if anyone could shed anymore light on this operation.

 

Tom

[Ronchatt]

Andrew , Tom.

                     Tom your right about the coal drops. Sam Tipping was the last person I can recall using them. I am told they were originally used by horse drawn carts for the Gas

                      Works makes sense straight down the street and into the gates. The stone piers held up very large balks of timber to which the rails were attached some form of                             chair was used I don't know what. A timber walk way with steal hand rail was attached to the roadway side.

                      The tar siding had a stand pipe half way down it witch could be turned over the top of the tank The loader had to walk up from the gas works, set the pipe then walk

                      back to turn on the valve as there was no valve on the stand pipe. then the same in reverse to turn it off. A rope or chain could be used to pull the tanker in but 

                      not out as the foot bridge was in the way. A crow bar under the wheel had to be used for that.

                      I have found a few more Photos of the station in the Scotrail web site taken by Ian Dunmore around the 70s 

                                                                                                                                                          Later Ron

[Ronchatt]

             Sorry Folks

                               Must have tried to put to many words on one line what a mess.

                              The website I was talking about for more photos  is  railscot not

                             scotrail

                                                                                                 Later Ron.

[LMS29]

Ron,

 

Thanks for the detailed information about the loading of the tar, it could make an unusual little scene. Would it be too much to ask if this loading arm was in use in the 1950's? I remember going down to the gas works as a small lad and collecting a bag of coke so the Works were there in the 1950's. 

 

As for the coal drops, the only thing that I can add is the size of the buffer stops at the end of the coal drops, which are still there and cast from concrete. I will try and get a picture next time I am in Ilkley. 

 

Tom

 

 

[Ronchatt]

Tom

    I still remember seeing  those square shaped tankers there, late 40s early 50s ?? cannot recall.

  But if they where still making  coke then they where still making tar. That would have to be about

  the time of closer of the gas works. Does Ilkley Gazette or the town council have those sort of records ??

  We are 20 years too late the last  of the people that knew these things passed away about then including

 my father

 If you do get to take those photos of the coal drops please  take a walk further down the road to where the road curves

away from the railway, the railway wall ends and wall of the small yard starts. there are foot steps worn into the stonework,

there must be 100 years of signalmen's feet making those foot steps on there way to and from work.

 I would love to see a photo of that

                                                                  Later Ron.

[LMS29]

Tom

    I still remember seeing  those square shaped tankers there, late 40s early 50s ?? cannot recall.

  But if they where still making  coke then they where still making tar. That would have to be about

  the time of closer of the gas works. Does Ilkley Gazette or the town council have those sort of records ??

  We are 20 years too late the last  of the people that knew these things passed away about then including

 my father

 If you do get to take those photos of the coal drops please  take a walk further down the road to where the road curves

away from the railway, the railway wall ends and wall of the small yard starts. there are foot steps worn into the stonework,

there must be 100 years of signalmen's feet making those foot steps on there way to and from work.

 I would love to see a photo of that

                                                                  Later Ron.

Ron,

 

I still visit Ilkley regularly as my parents are still living in the town and will take photographs of both items. I would like to spend a day in the Library as well as with the Gazette, just need to make the time.  

 

Tom

[LMS29]

Ron,

 

I was down in Ilkley yesterday, sadly it was pouring with rain.  Find attached a couple of pictures of the coal drops. The buffer stop is still in place and the walls of the coal cells can clearly be seen although the height has been reduced. I think they have topped the small walls off with the original top stones.

 

I also walked along to the end of the railway wall by the Railway Road wall sign but failed to find the footsteps that you mentioned. Perhaps you can check the photographs and give me some more directions.

 

Tom

[Ronchatt]

Thanks Tom

                    Anyone looking at those photos would not have known they where once  coal drops. Nice to know some thing was retained  

                   The foot steps may have started to blend in with the rest of the stone, the last time I climbed it was in 1995 when I was there.

                    In the photos I can see it, on the low wall, on the top stone under the capping stone, the top right hand corner is worn down 

                    so is the third one down, and I THINK the bottom one will be the same. Percy Rainer. Signalman. opposite shift to my father

                   always went to work that way.

                                                           Thanks again Tom I will always  treasure those photos

                                                                                                                            Later Ron.

                   P.S. Pete, how is the lay out going ??

[LMS29]

Ron,

 

I think I can see the steps you are refering to on the third photograph, which shows the blue car. Next time I go down and the weather is fine, I will try and get you a better photograph.

 

Pete,

 

Like Ron, I would like to know how you are getting on.  I am wrestling with building a model of the foot bridge that crossed from Railway Road to Bolling Road.

 

All the best, Tom

[Jub45565]

Haha!, thanks for the photos and general bits of interest!

 

There has been a bit of progress as I have started assembling the turntable - I'll try & post photo evidence later...

[Jub45565]

Righty ho, so for those of you who like pictures rather than me saying I'm doing some stuff, here we go!:

 

The turntable bridge is built up from a frame with panels placed in from the rear:

 

 

 

Once two are built, and had the bottom angles fitted,the are attached to a central spine (this bit needs cleaning up, but looks square) and copper clad inserts are fitted to the ends for the wheel carriers, which are the next job:

 

 

The kit is designed with several 'finishing' options in mind, as they were sold to lots of different railway companies.  Mine will have a wooden deck, as per this photo I've phobably linked more than a couple of times so far...

 

http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/historic/fws083.jpg

 

I would link it here Ron, but this version is slightly smaller:

 

https://www.myheritage.com/photo-11_33165501_33165501/dad-at-ilkley-turntable

 

Now, the kit says to use 1mm angle if using a steel deck and 2mm angle if using a wooden deck - but to my eyes the angle bit does want to be quite shallow, and the wooden planks above extend the full width.

 

Another question arising is as to what colour it would be. The metalwork on the one at Barrow Hill (which I saw at the Stanier day, and took 1 of 2 photos of) is bright red.  I'm guessing that even if it was in the 50s, it would probably be fairly weathered? Though the white brickwork well surround was kept clean by the looks:

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00-0-a-fw-smith-40139.jpg