Ilkley locomotive shed, 4mm P4 1950s

[LMS29]

Ron,

 

I have located a second hand copy of Lost Railways of East Riding and see the picture of a crane on the front cover which is really good.  One question that that raises is if there were one or two units in use when they were lifting logs? The only reference I have read implies that there was only one crane unit but the photo on the Railways book appears to show two crane jibs being used together. I wonder if you can shed any light on this?

 

The attached photo shows my first attempt to reproduce the log loading scenario.  Clearly I need to remodel the crane but am wondering if I need to make two units?  Any thoughts would help.

 

It was interesting to hear your comments about 'Piggy Lane', I did have a distant memory about there being small piggeries in that area below the engine shed and I have modelled a few pigs on my layout in that area but good to have that though reinforced.

 

Tom

 

[Kingmoorkid]

The plot thickens indeed. 

 

I felt sure we'd cracked that stone/brick shed issue!  Mind you - do we have faith in a website that tells us that the access to the shed was via the station platform?  Surely there would have been an entrance to the shed area from Railway Road?

 

I found some useful stuff on one of the other forums all about ammonia tanks.  I will post a link once I refind it!

 

Thanks for the gen on the tree trunk loading.  I wonder where the trees came from.  It would have been a bit of a mission to bring them through the town to then load them on a train.  Can't think of too many loggable forestry blocks near Ilkley!

 

More in a bit.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

The brick/stone issue should be resolved by the following picture  

 

This type of stonework is fairly typical in the town for buildings built at the same time as the shed.  The stones are very consistently sized in height, similar to a typical brick.  Builders can still source these and a number of modern extensions to older properties have  been built using them. 

 

This is the back wall of Mortens btw which was next to the route of Skipton line. 

 

Kingmoorkid

[LMS29]

The brick/stone issue should be resolved by the following picture DSCN2063 (2).JPG

 

This type of stonework is fairly typical in the town for buildings built at the same time as the shed.  The stones are very consistently sized in height, similar to a typical brick.  Builders can still source these and a number of modern extensions to older properties have  been built using them. 

 

This is the back wall of Mortens btw which was next to the route of Skipton line. 

 

Kingmoorkid

 

You certainly have a point. I have been looking at photos of the shed and looking particularly for the consistency of length of the brick/stone used, sadly I cannot find a photo where there is a sufficiently large area that is clean enough to follow the mortar pattern for more than three or four layers.  Does any one have a suitable photograph and then I think we may have the answer.

 

Tom

[Ronchatt]

G'day All

The shed, there is a Fred Smith photo inside of the shed, to me,

the floor is clearly brick paved, and smaller than the stone/brick

in the wall behind it, my thoughts, please check. I will find and

post if nobody has it

 

Tom.

I can only remember one crane ever used at Ilkley at any one time

gray painted, strait lattice jib, hand operated. The crane was moved

by hand up and down the first track, the wagons to be loaded on the second

track.

'Piggy lane' is the only name I know for that lane way, the piggery's where

war time allotments' between the lane and Backston Beck. The effluent was

washed into the beck. nice thought.

Later Ron.

[Kingmoorkid]

You certainly have a point. I have been looking at photos of the shed and looking particularly for the consistency of length of the brick/stone used, sadly I cannot find a photo where there is a sufficiently large area that is clean enough to follow the mortar pattern for more than three or four layers.  Does any one have a suitable photograph and then I think we may have the answer.

 

Tom

 

Tom

 

I can recommend page 55 of FW Smith and Martin Barstow's book on the Ilkley and Otley Joint railway which was published by Martin  Barstow in 1992, This has a photograph by J Davenport of the shed in June 1953 with good detail of the mortar courses and construction. I'm aware of copyright on this but having given this the acknowledgments I have, I'm attaching a copy of part of this photograph as it is good reference and quite revealing: 

 

 

KIngmoorkid 

[Kiwirail]

Hi guys

 

The only light I can shed on the crane thing is this snippet from the plan:

 

 

This shows a single crane in the area between the sidings.  Got no other details though, sorry.

 

I agree the stonework that looks like brickwork could be the answer to the shed conundrum.  It all fits.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Guest CLARENCE]

Hi guys

 

The only light I can shed on the crane thing is this snippet from the plan:

 

2016-07-26 Crane area cropped.JPG

 

This shows a single crane in the area between the sidings.  Got no other details though, sorry.

 

I agree the stonework that looks like brickwork could be the answer to the shed conundrum.  It all fits.

 

Cheers

Andrew

The crane shown here was, I believe, a standard Midland Heavy Crane, fixed on a stone plinth and used for unloading wagons.

Cheers, David

[Guest CLARENCE]

You probably know about this, but just in case, have a look at http://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk

The centre is in Derby, and you will have to visit in person, to see and copy the documents they have. They hold a series of drawings of Ilkley buildings, including an architects drawing of the engine shed which may be very useful (drawing no.23473 in the catalogue.) As I said, you need to go there in person, as they don't send anything over the 'net. Worth a look at the website, anyway!

 

Cheers, David 

[Ronchatt]

G'Day Folks

Sorry Andrew, that's the yard crane also hand operated but built on a plinth

about knee high. The one Tom is looking for came in abought once a year to load the

logs dumped in the area between railway terrace and the tracks, using the two short

tracks to the right of that crane on the plan.

I do believe Kingmoorkid has got the answer to brick/stone conundrum. {I hope. }

Later Ron.

[Kiwirail]

You probably know about this, but just in case, have a look at http://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk

The centre is in Derby, and you will have to visit in person, to see and copy the documents they have. They hold a series of drawings of Ilkley buildings, including an architects drawing of the engine shed which may be very useful (drawing no.23473 in the catalogue.) As I said, you need to go there in person, as they don't send anything over the 'net. Worth a look at the website, anyway!

 

Cheers, David 

 

If anyone's going near Derby, then can they get hold of drawing 23473 and post it here?  It's a bit harder for us antipodeans to get up there to have a browse ourselves!

 

Sounds great for those of us who have to build a model of the shed (eventually in my case).

 

I've got a good selection of drawings of the station buildings, but am lacking the signal box, good shed and engine shed.  I found Network Rail were very happy to send stuff by email from their archives.  Their cataloging system is a bit strange though - I ended up with several drawings from random stations around the country as well as the Ilkley ones.

 

It'd certainly be good to have a look at the Derby archive, but I've not got a trip planned just at the moment.

 

Sorry Ron about the misunderstanding about the crane.  I've definitely got nothing at all about a mobile one that came into the yard from time to time.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Jub45565]

Indeed, thanks David for the link.  I am in the process of trying to arrange a suitable day to have a look around, and have a list of items I'm interested in.  Once I've got a confirmed slot, I'll post here what I am intending to look at and will take any extra requests at that point.

 

I'm not sure on their rules about redistribution, but I should hope they could be shared directly between interested parties if not posted directly onto the forum.  It is something I will definitely clarify when I am there.

 

For my longer term aims of Embsay, I was hoping the wooden goods shed would be available as a drawing, but it seems not.  I must see if the NR or the NRM have that one hidden away. At least most of the other buildings there are still in existance!

[Jub45565]

Right, further to that I have my slot booked on Saturday 20th August.

 

Midland Railway Study Centre

 

 

NB - I won't be able to look at photographs, they are elsewhere, but I've added a couple to my list for future reference... 

 

Anything else please let me know.

 

As I suspected, as I understand it, I can't post findings on the forum but see no reason not to pass things on for personal use.

 

Part of my visiting instructions:

 

No member of staff or volunteer of the partner organisations which make up the Midland Railway Study Centre are
empowered to give advice in respect of Copyright. It is the sole responsibility of an individual Visitor not to
act in breach of applicable Copyright laws. Reproduction of any image (including photocopy, scan or photograph)
of material in the Study Centre is subject to separate consent and conditions. Please apply to the Study Centre Coordinator
for details.

 

edited to replace copy and pasted table with screenshots to aid viewing

Edited July 28, 2016 by Jub45565

[davefrk]

Hi Pete did you happen to notice if they had drawings for Burley in Whardedale station building and goods shed or failing that Otley station building?

I've been meaning to go to the York NR office but haven't yet found the time.

 

All the best,

Dave Franks

[Jub45565]

Hi Dave,

 

I havent seen anything, and did do a few extra specific searches last night for them.  It seems a bit random as to what they do and don't have - in Ilkley's case it seems they have the shed as that was a later addition, so maybe these drawings were filed in a different way/location to drawings for lines as built.

 

I keep meaning to sort a trip to the NRM too, but find their online filing system much harder to navigate. I hope the on site search facility is better - though I'd prefer to be able to do that beforehand so as to use the time there actually looking at material!

[Kiwirail]

Pete

 

You're going to have a most interesting day I'd think.

 

I'd be interested personally (on a not for profit, hobby type basis) on anything you can gather related to the Wharfedale line, but particularly Ilkley.  Signal box and goods shed (oh and the water tower :-)) are the last major items that I don't have a drawing of.

 

I'm no expert, but I'd have thought that stuff from the late 19th century would be well beyond any sort of copyright law, but I don't want anyone getting into trouble!  Heavens - you might get transported to Australia......

 

I too have had little joy with the NRM online search facility.  I think it probably becomes clearer once you've had the patience to work at it for a few hours.  It certainly did not seem intuitive if you wanted to examine something that wasn't just a picture of the Flying Scotsman.

 

Good luck with your research.  If you get anything good let me know and I'll send you my email address.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[LMS29]

Pete,

 

Good luck on 20th.

 

Looking at recent photograph by Kingmoorkid, are we leaning towards trimmed stone rather than brick.

 

I am trying to make contact with Embsay Railway to see what they may have but failing to get a response. Does anyone have a contact please?

 

Cheers, Tom

[Kiwirail]

Tom

 

I'd go with trimmed stone, on the back of the photographic evidence.

 

It'll be interesting to see what Pete can find in Derby.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Jub45565]

Well, I had a very useful day at Derby, and found Dave to be extremely helpful!   They are in the process of obtaining a large scanner, which would be very useful for this kind of thing, as photos of drawings are never at the right aspect let alone when working to get the lighting/reflections as balanced as possible. 

 

The main drawing of the shed, which includes the water tower, are good (if lacking a few dimensions (and above point about scaling photos).  They are all for sharing knowledge, I am still slightly dubious about putting too much here as it is fully accessible by the public who could use it for their own means (apparently copies of scans have appeared on ebay before now!).

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, while being brilliant it does still leave a few holes - firstly it doesnt specify the stonework. I am happy with have the real world answer from the photos , what I'm not aware of is an embossed product available which replicates it.  These are also of the shed as built, so I need to reference the roof against photos as the smoke hoods and raised central section were removed/lowered in the very early 1950s.  Still nothing specifying the turntable well base/floor.

 

They had some very useful 40ft/1inch plans of Embsay too, which have yet to make it into their online catalogue.

 

 

I have put all my photos from the day on my google drive, anyone interested in seeing the full set please PM me and I'll give you access.  If you have a gmail account please send me that - even if it isnt your primary email address, it will probably try logging you in with your known account, and if I've given access to a different address it wont let you in...

[Jub45565]

Hmm...

 

 

My track centres are a bit out! 

 

I am hoping to get back to the layout soon (decorating, as well as my 3F and 2P have been taking priority, but all are making progress) - but in the meantime I have some thinking to do.  I expect I will judge the shed to fit (not very P4, I know) rather than trying to slew the track which I don't think could be made to look right - but I will have a play with that too and see how it looks.

 

At the end of the day, this is a test layout to prove theories, test concepts, and be somewhere to run a bit of stock. With that in mind I'm trying to no go too far back towards the drawing board!

[Jub45565]

Sods law would have it, that while Bill Bedford does 2 sizes of MR shed windows, these are somewhere in the middle! These are 5' wide x 10' tall (20mm x 40mm), while Bill's offerings are 22mm x 50mm or 20mm x 35mm.  The larger of Bills the better 'look' in terms of panes and layout though.

 

My current thoughts are to keep the shed 'in the style of' and fudge the dimensions to fit my current track layout, though I have found my flexitrack so will have a play and see hopefully later this evening.

 

Bills architecture list is available here, though undimensioned.  The dimensions I have got from the Mainly Trains list.

[LMS29]

Pete,

 

Glad you had a good day at Derby.

 

A friend solved the window size/design issue by preparing an accurate scale drawing of item in question.  The drawing was transferred to a PC and then used a computer 'driven' cutter on thin plasticard to cut out the framework of the desired window (with as many repeats as needed). This thin outline of the window framework can then be mounted on a sheet of clear plastic or plasticard to give strength as well as the obvious glass look; the framework was cut to size and then mounted in the window recess in your stone work (or behind as necessary). There are pictures of building windows prepared in this way on another RMWeb thread which I could reference.

 

Once mastered there are many applications for this technique, I used the same method for the thin lattice work on the footbridge for my model of Ilkley (shown on page 4). Maybe an idea for you to consider?

 

I would be interested in gaining access to the drawings, please and I think you have my e-mail address already.

 

Tom

Edited August 25, 2016 by LMS29

[Jub45565]

My main reason for looking at available etches was mainly cost based, in that anything else designed is going to be more (either in time or financial terms).  However, what is the cost of not taking the opportunity to pick up skills I want in the future...

 

Having drawn out the shed base/footprint, walls and front in Draftsight the other day, it reminded me that the main stumbling block with previous ideas of having a go at etching have not been picking up the CAD skills of *how* to draw, but finding the dimensions of *what* to draw. So back to Draftsight I went...

 

This started as drawing the main window design:

 

To which I added window bar thickness.  Working in an old paintworks, we have nice large leaded windows, and the window bars on those measure 0.75", and 1.25" around the opening section.

 

 

This left the problem of how to separate the top arcs into separate sections to help create the window opening entities.  I was hoping I could cut the larger arc into smaller sections, but the only way I have seen is to create a mid point in each window section, and create the arcs for each chunk using those:

 

 

 

I'll use the same technique for the other two rows, unless anyone has any better ideas as to how to achieve these. It looks ok using this method though.

 

Now I'm trying to get my head around the opening section. Having the wider window surround will help, but I think it will need an overlayto add some depth, and possibly a second option to allow it to be open (top half rotating inwards, bottom half outwards, by the looks of it).  I think the photo in post 146 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99883-ilkley-locomotive-shed-4mm-p4-1950s/?p=2341409) has the 4th window slightly open (it looks like it in the Otley and Ilkley Railway book). One other thing that photo shows is some framing in the top right of the photo, though I'm not sure what it is!

 

 

Tom, thanks for the plasticard cutter idea, that does sound interesting but I think I'll go the etched route for these.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Some windows will be a pretty good place to start with regard to first steps in etch design. 

 

I use PPD to do my etching and they have a really helpful artwork guide - this is here.   Note which file formats that they support though, as I don't think they support the one you are using?  Coraldraw is relatively cheap to purchase; AutoCAD is stunningly expensive but has gone over to monthly subscription but the first month is free (so if you planned ahead, you could get it all draw in this time).

 

The trick is largely to draw in layers - use one layer for each of the desired outcomes - no etch, etch through, etch top & etch bottom.  Use another layer or two for the drawing lines to create the shapes, with the four etch command layers being shown by shading in the shapes.  Actually I don't use the prescribed colours (I prefer different colours) but I do title my layers as I have shown and PPD have no problem with this.  If they did have a problem then it is only a matter of monents to change the colours in the layer control.

 

The artwork guide that is attached discusses undercut, which you will need to allow for.  Thus, for any given width of finished glazing bar, you need to draw it a bit wider so that the undercut brings it down to the right width.  As a consequence, it is necessary to have a view as to the thickness of metal that you have in mind.  I typcially use 0.3mm as a base thickness, thicker for loco frames or signal brackets.

 

You also need to think about practical things such as how much extra metal around the actual window you need to hold it in place, whether you might want to include fold down tab to provide a thickness for the glass/film that you are using for glaze and how you are going to arrange these on a fret, so that you don't need to cut them out by hand.

 

With regard to your comments with regard to the opening casements, I suspect that they were outward opening, so the casement sits on the outside of the frame.  If this is the case, you have two choices;

• you could do the windows such that the casement is left at full thickness and the remainder of the frame is left as etch from above only.  This only works when there is sufficent mass of material in the half etched bit for it not to distort in use, so you will need to up the thickness of the metal somewhat to 0.5 - 0.6mm. 
• you could come up with a second layer for the casements that you laminate onto the lower one to provide the thickness.  The issue with this is a constructional one to get the two layers square consistantly.  I would suggest that you come up with a folding jig if you go for this route - if you go to my Highland Miscellany thread either on RMWeb , the S4Society Forum or on the web (links as per my signature) you will see that I use these on a number of occassions, the last time was the frame overlays for the six wheeled bogies.

Also think about whether you want some of the casements to be open?  Also think about the other things that might easily etch; signs, doors, roof vents...........now would be the time to do all of them!

 

Hope these pointers help?  There is more than one way to skin this particular cat, so these are not the only way of dealing with this, just my suggestion.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Portchullin Tatty

[Jub45565]

Thanks Mark, all useful stuff!  Draftsight creates a dwg by default, and can produce dxf files (it is remarkably similar to Autocad from what I can remember of doing in that several years ago) - but I will bear it in mind that a purchase could be a good idea.

 

Interesting that you have layers for both no etch and etch through, most of the drawing guides seem to suggest one of them alongside the two half etches - but it makes sense for full clarity.

 

Good point on the undercut, this point had fallen through the seive...

 

I was wondering whether to etch an 'inner' and 'outer' windowframe together, folded at the bottom with the width of glazing, but I'm never very good at folding when it is that thin, so would probably go for holes in the outer frame and use pins to align them.  I would include spacers to laminate between so the whole unit can be assembled and painted before slotting the glazing in place.

 

I was thinking of a second etch for the casement, rather than half etching a thicker sheet - but I'm not sure whether there is room for alignment pin holes. I'll have a play.  It would be nice for a few to open.

 

I have a few other ideas of things to etch (not necessarily Ilkley related) - so watch this space!

 

Thanks for spending the time to think through potential issues, much appreciated Mark!

[Portchullin Tatty]

Peter,

 

If Draftsight can produce dxf's, this will almost certainly be fine for PPD (but a quick call to confirm may be appropriate).

 

Definitely keep each layer separate for each command - etch through, etch above, etch below, no etch.  It is so much easier.

 

The fold over layer for the casement is what I had in mind - but the casement will not be the full width of the window frame, so you will need to have a degree of a jig that is cut away once the fold has been made and the casement soldered in position.  The trick in the design of such fold lines is to ensure that the fold line is weaker than the surrounding parts, so the fold happens painlessly at the point that you want it to be.  If you have delicate parts or parts that are quite small (so are difficult to grasp to make the fold), a trick is to do the fold line as a staggered line of half etch, etch through, half etch, etch through (etc).  This weakens it and makes the fold easier.