Ilkley locomotive shed, 4mm P4 1950s

[Kiwirail]

Evening Gents

 

I was wondering if anyone can cast a bit of light on the installation of the up starter home signal on Platform 1.  This used to be a bracket signal with arms for the main line and the loop, but sometime later (after the first set of rationalisation that removed the centre road between Platforms 1 and 2) but before the installation of colour light signalling there was for a few years a home starter for Platform 1 situated in between the Platform 1 and Platform 2 roads, ie where the centre road would have formerly been.

 

Has anyone got any information on:

1) when the track was initially rationalised?  I'm picking about 1971 or 1972 from my photos.

2) whether the home starter was moved at the same time, or whether it was at some other date.

 

Platforms 3 and 4 remained intact but trackless for some years before they got turned into a car park if I recall correctly.  The subway ramp up to Platform 4 was always locked shut when I was a kid.  I remember peering through the gates and wondering when the last passengers were there.
 

Cheers

Andrew

[LMS29]

Evening Gents

 

I was wondering if anyone can cast a bit of light on the installation of the up starter home signal on Platform 1.  This used to be a bracket signal with arms for the main line and the loop, but sometime later (after the first set of rationalisation that removed the centre road between Platforms 1 and 2) but before the installation of colour light signalling there was for a few years a home starter for Platform 1 situated in between the Platform 1 and Platform 2 roads, ie where the centre road would have formerly been.

 

Has anyone got any information on:

1) when the track was initially rationalised?  I'm picking about 1971 or 1972 from my photos.

2) whether the home starter was moved at the same time, or whether it was at some other date.

 

Platforms 3 and 4 remained intact but trackless for some years before they got turned into a car park if I recall correctly.  The subway ramp up to Platform 4 was always locked shut when I was a kid.  I remember peering through the gates and wondering when the last passengers were there.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Andrew,

 

Cannot help with signal query.  As for the subway being blocked, I think the gate was locked around the same time as the line was lifted in 3 and 4.  When do you remember the gates being locked? The 'bricking' up of the gateway was much later, but no dates come to mind.

 

Perhaps one of the others can help,

 

Tom

[Kingmoorkid]

I haven't been on line much recently, but can confirm the wall at Skipton end of station has a curve in northern wall as described with last four arches after the underpass turning gently, I guess deflection is about 4 or 5 feet. 

 

Has the Rails in the Dales Flickr site been viewed - well worth a browse.  https://www.flickr.com/groups/railsinthedales/pool/page1

 

Plenty of Ilkley pictures from 60/70's  and some internal views of the Shed. 

 

Kingmoorkid

[Ronchatt]

Andrew

You talk about a home starter signal. they where 2 completely different signals, a home signal let you

into the station limits, a starter let you out again. there was no such thing as a home starter

We left in late March 1972, in a rail car from platform 2. Every thing was still there then, including

the subway and bottom gate.

There are 2 books of photos of Ilkley compiled by Mike Dixon some from the 1980s showing Brook St and

other roads around the station.

There was a cricket field between the Crescent hotel, Nelson rd and the 'New' railway Wall in 1890.

I found my copies through Amazon UK

Later Ron

[Kiwirail]

Thanks for that Ron.  It's a crap day when you don't learn something.  I thought that a home signal was simply the one with the red arm that you couldn't pass at danger!  Didn't know it had another meaning.

 

Great link to the Flickr pages.  Loads of good stuff there.  I see from the Shoulder of Lune Railtour shot that the starter was still in place at 18 April 1981, for example!

 

When I was a kid in the late 70s you could go through the subway and out through the hole in the wall onto Railway Road, but there was a locked gate at the top of the ramp at Platform 4.  As I recall you could go up the ramp but not get out at the top onto P4.

 

I see that they reused the handrails from the subway in the remodelling of the station in the 1990s.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Kiwirail]

And after searching for a bit through the archives I found this - which proves that the memory is not as bad as all that!

 

 

These were the gates locked to keep prying kids like me out.  Circa 1983.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

 

 

[Jub45565]

I haven't been on line much recently, but can confirm the wall at Skipton end of station has a curve in northern wall as described with last four arches after the underpass turning gently, I guess deflection is about 4 or 5 feet. 

 

Has the Rails in the Dales Flickr site been viewed - well worth a browse.  https://www.flickr.com/groups/railsinthedales/pool/page1

 

Plenty of Ilkley pictures from 60/70's  and some internal views of the Shed. 

 

Kingmoorkid

 

Thanks for those - unfortunately I've seen the photos in the shed before, but there are others in the group that are of wider interest!

 

Another source which doesnt look to specifically help me, as the shed area seems to be missed out, but there are some nice aerial photos here:

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/asearch?search=ilkley

 

Hopefully some modelling to report soon...

 

Cheers,

[Kiwirail]

Hi Chaps

 

Managed to answer my own question.

 

Sifting through endless photographs of the station I came across this interesting little gem:

 

 

Now - if you look at the right hand (south) end, you see that the original configuration of the bridge had the steps going in a straight line down to the roadway, no right angle bend at all.  This ties in nicely with the site plan that I posted a while back and here's a snippet again to jog memories.

 

 

So comparing this with my later shot (albeit from the other direction) you can see that this end of the bridge must have been modified at some stage, and the change in paint might also indicate that this is the case:

 

 

So we can conclude that the bridge was modified sometime between its original construction (around the turn of the century) and the late 1970s, before being demolished and replaced with the new one during electrification.

 

Not sure if this is of interest to anyone, but I was chuffed to have solved the puzzle.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

 

 

[Ronchatt]

Andrew et al [or whatever]

"WHAT A FIND"

It shows a h==== of a lot.

I shows that when the photo was taken, Springs Ter had been built. That there was

no water Crain

on P 1. that the signals on P 1, were on one post the top one, being the starter,

on the wrong side,{ the driver would have to cross the footplate to view it before

he passed it]. The lower one being entry to the yard.

It shows no "crud" on the sleepers on any road. All new ?

That the starter signal from p 4 was possibly high enough to be seen over the station

roof beyond Brook St.

And, non railway, the brewery had a high chimney .

 

As I've said before Springs Lane was probably just a narrow laneway in 1910--1920 .

Your plan, to me, shows, from the railway, an embankment, then a wall, then the road.

To me, to widen the road, get rid of the embankment, rebuild the wall, realign the

bridge at right-angle to the road. The bridge as I remember from the early 40s was

at right angles to the road. The photo you show must have been from the late 70s

The stone steps from the road level to the railway level were built after I left

in 1972

Later Ron.

[LMS29]

Ron,

 

You are right about the steps down from the road to the rail level being late additions. I think they were installed when the car park went in.  I went up and down these steps a couple of days ago and it is clear that both the stone work and the cement holding it in place is 'newer' than the section to the right which was the start of the foot bridge.  It has of course all changed again when the new bridge was installed prior to electrification.

 

I have seen pictures of the chimney before on the first building, which seemed to have been reduced in size around the 1940s.  I have seen reference to the first building with this large chimney being a mill. Can you comment? The third building which had Ilkley Brewery painted around the top was demolished last year but the other two still remain.

 

Tom

[Guest CLARENCE]

Hi Fellas,

I've been following your discussion with interest. I too was born and raised in Ilkley ( in fact Ronchatt is my little brother!) I now live in Northumberland and haven't been back in years. I still remember the shed as being built in stone, tho' I'm beginning to doubt my memory having seen the photographs! In the late 1940's and 1950's I walked alongside the tracks from Railway Terrace to Dad's allotment/chicken run, opposite the shed, two or three times a week to feed the chickens.I'm sure the engine shed was in stone, like everything else around the station and goods yard at the time. 

One thing that's puzzled me for ages; Why was that great long footbridge built in the first place? It can only have been to replace a footpath there before the railway came, yet the railway just slammed its way right through the centre of town cutting through several roads between Ilkley and Ben Rhydding, the remains of which could still be seen in the 50's.

Incidentally, a model of Ilkley featured as Model of the Month in Railway Modeller for December 1976, if you can find a copy, with several pics of the loco shed included.

I have lots of photos on my computer most of which come from the Embsay Railway website, which I'm sure you've found. I think I can still find some I took myself in the 50's, I'll have a dig around if you'd be interested.

Good luck with your project!

Cheers, David

[Ronchatt]

 

 

Gday  everybody

                           This is the only photo I can find of that end of the foot bridge.  Whilst not showing the bridge

                           it was obviously taken from the decking of it .Its too close to the road to have steps straight

                          down to the road so the right angle steps must have been installed before  1930.  Probably

                          when the road was widened from a cart track to a two lane road.. 

                          I always thought  the first building past the signal box was the malting house for the brewery

                          the middle window in the top floor was  a door. probably for a hoist from the siding below.

                          The window was only put in when Spooners made that building there drawing office.

                         A large RAF roundel was painted on the end of it. still visible until the 50s.    

                       As for our kids post, I was also certain the engine shed was stone and looking at the photos  

                      especially the one inside, if they are bricks they are very BIG bricks more like blocks and they

                        did not use those in the 1890s

                         I will leave you to ponder that one as my memory still says stone.

                                                                                                     Later Ron

  

                        

                          

 

[Kiwirail]

Morning Chaps

 

I've had a few days off and in the meantime yet another tide of useful information comes flooding in.

 

Good pic of the bus in Springs Lane, thanks Ron.  I agree that the footbridge alterations must have been earlier in the 20th C rather than later, as they wouldn't have bothered with the fancy altered stonework if it had been done post-war - the abutment would have just been concrete I'd have thought.  I think you are also correct about the retaining wall above the goods yard possibly going in to allow the widening of Springs Lane.  This certainly makes sense to me. 

 

I'd imagine that the station footbridge - which after all has almost nothing to do with the station itself, if you think about it - must have been a requirement of the original land acquisition and construction - maybe an historic right of way or something like that.  I used to own the house directly opposite the north end of the footbridge where it pops out onto Railway Road, and it was handy for me to get to the supermarket!

 

The observations relating to my earlier footbridge photo are interesting, especially the height of the P4 starter.  This had not occurred to me, but thinking about it now, the extended post must have been to make that arm visible over the roof from beyond Brook Street.  I am not sure that there is another reasonable explanation, because it would have required to crew to crick their necks when standing in the platform itself, waiting for release.  It is interesting that when that signal was replaced by the LMS it did not get the same extended post treatment.

 

David, if you have any photos of your own that are not on the web, I'd be really interested, as I am sure Pete will be, as the thread starter and with his own a special interest in the shed area.  I've now amassed about 200 photos of the station area but inevitably most are of the immediate platform area and only a few show areas of real interest to non-station folk!  If we can add anything to the archive that'd be great.

 

Tom - you are correct about the lower steps leading down from the bridge abutment into the supermarket car park.  These went in in 1983 when the original Hillards supermarket was built on the goods yard site.

 

I have acquired a back copy and have now scanned the RM Dec 76 Ilkley article if anyone is interested.  I must admit I was a little disappointed in the amount of modeller's licence that had been applied to this layout but it's quite a bit better than nothing!  I've just had another look at it, and it may shed some light on some of the questions debated previously in this thread.  Wakefield MRS has applied quite a savage curve through the station to accommodate a roundy-roundy track plan, and this has led to the water tank (stone base, cast top incidentally!) ending up behind the signal box down on Railway Road!  Engine shed is stone built on the model.  Assuming the club members had perhaps better access to archive material it may be reasonable to take these details at face value.  Here's a taster:

 

More of the same if anyone's keen.  Please let me know.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kiwirail]

Sorry - meant to attach this c. 1980 photo to illustrate the point:

 

The LMS-era P4 starter is still tall, but not as tall as the Midland version:

 

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Kiwirail]

Sorry - meant to attach this c. 1980 photo to illustrate the point:

 

The LMS-era P4 starter is still tall, but not as tall as the Midland version:

 

1980-06-01 Signal box.jpg

 

Cheers

Andrew

I meant that to read BR-era.  Sorry guys.  Been a long day.

 

Having such a high post might have made the arm easier to see against the brewery building beyond as well - not sure if that'd be a reason or just a side-effect though!

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Guest CLARENCE]

Just a couple of pics I've found, taken myself mid 50's. Awful photos, looking at 'em now, but interesting!

From the side of the signal box, 1954;

 

And actually from the box, just taken my Dad his tea over!

 

I'll see what else I can dig out, I remember I took a lot of photographs in the 70's around the station before they messed it about, but haven't seen them since we last moved house, about 10 years ago!

Cheers, David.

 

P.S. I'm absolutely certain that the Springs Lane end of the footbridge turned right angle away from the station in the 40's/50's and ended up in a stone abutment at road level, when I were a lad I must have used the bridge at least a couple of times a week!

Edited June 6, 2016 by CLARENCE

[Guest CLARENCE]

Afternoon all,

    Found a few oddments, may at least be of interest. I do seem to have lost a lot of my old photographs during a couple of house moves over the years, obviously didn't value them at times.

Anyway, here goes;

Newspaper pic; useless!

 

Front of shed 1955

 

From the signal box(better print)

 

Station from the signal box again,1950's

 

Pretty sure this isn't even mine, if so I apologise!

 

If I can get up into the loft, I'll have a proper root round, tho' I don't find it as easy as I used to!

 

All the best, David.

 

P.S. By the way, the railings you can see in the pic of the bus on Springs Lane are still there, have a look on Google Earth!

Edited June 7, 2016 by CLARENCE

[LMS29]

David,

 

Thanks for posting these photographs. I am particularly pleased to see a photograph of the tanker loading facility, which we have discussed earlier in the thread and also note that the wagon being loaded looks like a 14 ton tank wagon rather than a smaller rectangular tanker.  I am also keen to see what the back of the brewery looked like in the 1950's. Having seen your photographs, I have some more work to do on my model but happy to make changes to increase the accuracy.  Thanks for the posting of photographs and I for one would like to see more, especially if they are original photographs that are not already widely available.

 

Tom

[Jub45565]

Firstly, I'm glad this thread has talking and thinking about the place - any more photos or memories please keep coming!

 

As if to prove I'm still alive, but not done alot (layout wise) here are a couple of photos...

 

I've mainly been working on the 3F recently, partly as I want it finished by Railwells in August, but also the good weather has been good for painting rather than sitting next to a soldering iron.  I will update my 3F topic separately (and probably tomorrow, there are quite a few photos to crop and reduce!) but here it is with the chassis painted running around the layout (smooth as silk, and without disgracing itself (or my trackwork) once!

 

Also of note in the photo are bits of turntable.  The handrail stantions are not yet fitted, as I'll be doing that after fitting the decking, but the deck planking has been cut to length and fitting that will be one of the next jobs.

 

Once the 3F is finished I will make the layout my top priority again...

 

 

One concept I've been playing with is the use of cutlery trays for stock storage. I just need to find one with the right dimensions... but if I do I think I'm onto a winner. The one here is good for 57' stock as long as couplings don't protrude, other than the tea spoon tray which is longer (answers on a postcard...) and can accomodate, in this case, the Brassmasters cast coupling.

 

[Kiwirail]

David

 

Excellent photos, thanks very much.  I'd be really keen to see any more that you have, especially 70s, which is 'my' era.

 

Pete - good to see some progress!

 

I have some more info on the engine shed.  Coming shortly.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Kiwirail]

Meant to reply a bit sooner than this.

 

I've been mulling on the engine shed construction.  There was a very similar structure (but much shorter) at Keighley.  The end elevation is essentially identical - refer picture below.  This is clearly built of stone, and this is backed up by its description in 'LMS Engine Sheds' - Vol 2 by Hawkins and Reeve.

 

So - I think the appearance of the front elevation of the Ilkley shed in this picture is simply better attention to detail by the stonemasons - with the blocks being cut a bit more regularly and of an even thickness, making them look a bit like bricks.

 

The view from the north side is a bit more unequivocal:

 

Here you can see the different course thicknesses that you get with stone, but not generally with brick.

 

This all ties in with the various memories of the real building, which is encouraging.

 

So we should all be building our models with stone, not brick!

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

 

 

 

 

[Jub45565]

Excellent point Andrew, good spot!  Though as you say it does look more uniform than most stonework, and definitely more so than any 4mm scale sheets I have seen, so should we be building it in stone, or build it in brick but painted as per stone?!

 

It does answer the question as to why it doesnt follow a standard brick bond... (other than stretcher, which wouldnt be used on a building).

[Kiwirail]

Pete

 

Yes - I am not sure I have ever seen stonework that uniform, but then I have probably never stared at it with the same intensity that I have done poring over loads of photos lately!

 

Not quite sure how you'd go about modelling this.  I agree none of the standard papers/mouldings appear to fit that pattern, but I'd be glad to be challenged on that point.  In my 1970s scenario the shed's been demolished, so I may not have to deal with it at all.  It depends how much I bend history!

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Ronchatt]

Go'day All

Thank You Andrew, in my memory, I could not see brick in the

engine shed walls. all I could see in those old buildings is

stone. I don't think brick came into Ilkley until well after

the turn of the century. The stone could have come from the

same Quarry as the Kieghley shed. Its only 5 or 6 miles over

the top on the moor road, I know I've walked it a few times

after missing the last buss home. Same plans, same stone,

makes sense to me.

Later Ron.

[Guest CLARENCE]

Another photo just turned up! Railway Terrace taken from the signal box. A row of eight houses built by the railway company. When I were a lad, they were heated by coal fires, lit by gas, lav and wash house across the back yard (no bathroom of course). Direct access to our playground, the goods yard; ah, the good old days! I bet our kid remembers.

Cow and Calf rocks in the background.

 

All the best David

Edited June 22, 2016 by CLARENCE