Ilkley locomotive shed, 4mm P4 1950s

[LMS29]

Another photo just turned up! Railway Terrace taken from the signal box. A row of eight houses built by the railway company. When I were a lad, they were heated by coal fires, lit by gas, lav and wash house across the back yard (no bathroom of course). Direct access to our playground, the goods yard; ah, the good old days! I bet our kid remembers.

Cow and Calf rocks in the background.

RAILWAY TERRACE.jpg

 

All the best David

 

David,

 

If it is not a daft question, what is the building to the left of the railway cottages? Not one I recognise.

 

Thanks, Tom

[Ian Smeeton]

Re the stone used in the engine shed.

 

Perhaps one of the Laser cutter experimenters might be persuaded to have a go.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Ronchatt]

       G'day all

          Not a daft question Tom. Probably a different angle

          Its Helliwell & Hobbs  Station Garage on Springs lane,

          Demolished around 1990 I'm told .

          Yes David  in the words of Ronnie Drew , Remember ? 

         how could I forget . I can still name every tenant  and the

        kids in the 40s and 50s

[LMS29]

Ron,

 

Thanks for the memory prompt. I knew about the garage on Springs Lane but as you say I had not seen it from that angle before.

 

Out of interest, I am currently modelling tank wagons.  I have a tar tank wagon under construction as shown in your brother's recent photograph and also a rake of white ICI Ammonia tank wagons as seen in many photographs trundling up and down Wharfedale. I will post a couple of photographs when they are complete, maybe that will evoke some more memories.

 

Tom

[Kiwirail]

Another photo just turned up! Railway Terrace taken from the signal box. A row of eight houses built by the railway company. When I were a lad, they were heated by coal fires, lit by gas, lav and wash house across the back yard (no bathroom of course). Direct access to our playground, the goods yard; ah, the good old days! I bet our kid remembers.

Cow and Calf rocks in the background.

RAILWAY TERRACE.jpg

 

All the best David

 

That's great - Not an area that features on any of my other photos, just a rather enigmatic reference to 'gardens' on my plan.  Now I know what it all looked like.

 

Thanks very much

Andrew

[Kiwirail]

Hi Chaps

 

Dug out this part of the plan, showing all eight houses in Railway Tce, plus dunnies in the back yard!

 

Can anyone enlighten us all on what was stacked in the 'stacking grounds'?

 

 

Presumably the P.H. adjacent to the Cart Road is not a very small pub, but another permanent way shed or somesuch.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

[LMS29]

Hi Chaps

 

Dug out this part of the plan, showing all eight houses in Railway Tce, plus dunnies in the back yard!

 

Can anyone enlighten us all on what was stacked in the 'stacking grounds'?

 

2016-06-29 Railway Terrace cropped.JPG

 

Presumably the P.H. adjacent to the Cart Road is not a very small pub, but another permanent way shed or somesuch.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Andrew,

 

In the 1950/1960's the two sidings you see in the centre of the map were used to load tree trunks onto bogie bolsters. There was also coal storage in the yard.  Not sure what was referred to when your plan was drawn, many years before, maybe one of the others can fill in some of the earlier details.

 

Tom

[Ronchatt]

 

G'day all

Gee, You are all bringing back memory's

Tom.

The ghost train, or the ammonia train as it was,

was a loose coupled unfitted train of tank wagons

loaded with liquid ammonia. It had to be kept off

trunk routes whenever possible. It came from somewhere

in the north west to somewhere in the Sunderland

Newcastle area, it came onto the branch via

Hellifield Skipton Otley to Haragate then up the old

route via Hawes, then across to the east coast main

line. It was worked by Starbeck men from Skipton.

coming out of the fog on a freezing cold morning with

the tanks covered in ice, it really looked like a

ghost train.

A few Years ago in Perth WA I met a young lady born

in Haragate. Her grandfather had been a driver at

Starbeck. He could have worked that train, and passed

within a few feet of me father in the box at Ilkley.

Small world.

Andrew

The Stacks were probably coal, stored in summer for

use in winter. The P H on the plan was the platelayers

hut. In the 40s 50s a lunch room /store room built of

old wooden sleepers, walls and roof, seating all around

also made of sleepers, a large cast iron stove in the

corner kept it warm. In cold Rainy foggy snowy weather

it possibly was a small pub

 

Later. Ron.

[LMS29]

G'day all
Gee, You are all bringing back memory's
Tom.
The ghost train, or the ammonia train as it was,
was a loose coupled unfitted train of tank wagons
loaded with liquid ammonia. It had to be kept off
trunk routes whenever possible. It came from somewhere
in the north west to somewhere in the Sunderland
Newcastle area, it came onto the branch via
Hellifield Skipton Otley to Haragate then up the old
route via Hawes, then across to the east coast main
line. It was worked by Starbeck men from Skipton.
coming out of the fog on a freezing cold morning with
the tanks covered in ice, it really looked like a
ghost train.
A few Years ago in Perth WA I met a young lady born
in Haragate. Her grandfather had been a driver at
Starbeck. He could have worked that train, and passed
within a few feet of me father in the box at Ilkley.
Small world.
Andrew
The Stacks were probably coal, stored in summer for
use in winter. The P H on the plan was the platelayers
hut. In the 40s 50s a lunch room /store room built of
old wooden sleepers, walls and roof, seating all around
also made of sleepers, a large cast iron stove in the
corner kept it warm. In cold Rainy foggy snowy weather
it possibly was a small pub

Later. Ron.

 

Ron,

 

The ammonia was made by ICI at Billingham and ran from Havertown Hill across to Heysham in Lancashire.  I attach a photograph that you may have seen before of a J39 pulling such a tanker train under the footbridge at Ilkley, not as white as some!

 

There are also photographs of a petrol train which did a similar run up the valley but I am still researching this one; it would be helpful if anyone can shed more light on the origin and route of this one?  I have seen a reference somewhere to Shell tankers but cannot find anything to support this.

 

Tom

Edited June 30, 2016 by LMS29

[Jub45565]

Ron, Tom,

 

Yes I'm interested in both the ammonia and Shell traffic flows - but am a bit sketchy on it at the moment!

 

As for the ice, that would only be formed in one direction (when full), and that looks like heading towards Otley which adds up in my mind.  There are a couple of threads on ammonia wagons elsewhere on RMWEb (I'll try and remember to edit this an add a link or two later). 

 

Were the fuel trains all petrol, or a mixture?  From the photos I have seen they generally look black rather than silver, but that could well be the state of cleanliness!

 

(yes, I'm aware that I don't really need to know about either of these for the shed...).

[Ronchatt]

G'day all

             Sorry Tom , must agree with Pete. The only time we ever set eyes on those tanks was

            when they  where loaded heading East from Skipton towards Otley . I cannot recall ever

           seeing empty's going the other way . The photo shows the train heading East.

           I do not recall any other tank train using the branch. BUT . a lot of trains were diverted

          from the main line [ Keithley route ] onto the branch, especially during the war years  

           and later due to engineering work on the main line.

          And Tom you were looking for the crane used for loading the timber at Ilkley. 

         There is a book " The lost railways of east Yorkshire " By Neil Burgess. On the front

         cover is a photo with 2 cranes in the background , could the first one be the one  

        used at Ilkley . I think so.

                                                      Later Ron.

[LMS29]

Ron, Pete,

 

I take the point about full wagons heading towards Skipton being white with water frozen on the outside of the tank but I also think that some wagons were painted white.

 

What I am trying to tease out and clarify in my own mind is which wagons were used in this traffic and when they were used.  I have a photo of an ex-WD loco pulling white Ministry of Supply wagons over the Brook Street Bridge.  I also know that at one stage ICI painted their Ammonia Wagons white with ICI logo on the side and red bands at either end. I have supporting photographs but they are too large to add.

 

Ron,

 

Thanks for the reference about the crane. I will follow it up and let you know how I get on.

 

Tom

Edited July 1, 2016 by LMS29

[Ronchatt]

G'day folks

If the photo on the bridge at Ilkley is from Bill Smiths collection, it

shows the MoS tank next to the engine if that had been loaded with

dangerous goods such as ammonia or fuel, as it would have needed at least

2 buffer wagons between the tank and the engine.The only photos I have

seen of the ammonia train with buffer wagons, have been heading from Skipton

towards Otley . But as kids the only trains we would have noticed would have

been the unusual ones like the ghost train coming out of the mist.

Not empty's going the other way

When I Found RMWeb and stumbled on this topic I was looking for steam locos

on the Ilkley roster. Pete was kind enough to answer and put me right, and

no the 1 gauge Midland tank loco I was looking to buy was never at Ilkley,

so I lost interest. This is what I spent my hard earnings on.

[Ronchatt]

OOps it appears I pressed the wrong keys

printing the photo twice and not describing it.

Its a live steam Darjeeling Garret built by

Roundhouse of Doncaster to 16mm scale

A beautiful loco that shows British engineering

is not yet dead.

Later Ron.

[LMS29]

Ron, Pete et al.

 

I am still trying to understand the ammonia and shell oil traffic that passed through Ilkley and think that this link may shed a little more light  http://www.heyshamheritage.org.uk/trimpell_oil_refinery.html . The chemical works at Heysham was jointly owned by Shell, ICI and Trinidad Leasing and was set up in 1939 to produce 100 octane fuel for aircraft (Shell) and nitric acid and ammonium nitrate (ICI) for explosives etc. using coke from Co Durham and gas oil. The gas oil would be carried in black tanks as it is a Class B liquid, so that could account for the trains of black oil tank wagons.  I am still haunted by Ron's Ghost train and working out which way the ammonia was moving, east or west or could it be both? Still trying to find out if the ammonia used to produce the nitric and ammonia nitrate was produced at Heysham or shipped from Billingham.

 

Tom

[Ronchatt]

G'day all

Sorry Tom can not help any more, even Fred Smith in his book

has a photo of an ammonia heading from Heysham to Haverton Hill

on page 44 but. But on page 46 a diesel hauled train

heading from Teesside to Heysham , mind you, it only shows the

engine and brake tender, not the train.

My only argument is there is only a need for buffer wagons on

a loaded train not an empty.

The mind boggles on how you are going to model an ice bound

tanker. You could wet it and put it in a freezer for an hour

before you use it but then the wheels would freeze in the

bearings

Later Ron.

[Guest CLARENCE]

A spanner in the works for you all! Look up http://shedbashuk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/ilkley-1950-1957.html This will take you to a website showing locomotives allocated to Ilkley in those years. Problem is, though, that there is a description of the shed as BRICK-BUILT. Sorry about that   

David

 

PS Just discovered the link takes you to a page that doesn't exist anymore. I still have it on my computer tho'. I'll see if I can send it.

Edited July 7, 2016 by CLARENCE

[Guest CLARENCE]

Try again, took a couple pics of my screen.

 

 

 

 There you go, make of that what you will!

 

Cheers, David.

[LMS29]

Hi Folks,

 

I have read David's e-mail on the Ilkley shed and wondered if the comment that "access to the shed is via the station platform" meant that the loco crews walked along platform 4 along past the signal box and onto the shed or was this a special for the shed visits?

 

On another point, I was at Embsay this morning trying to locate a copy of an the Operating Timetable for the mid 1950's for Skipton  via Ilkley to Leeds/Bradford.  I failed to find one but did get some leads.  I do not suppose anyone can help point me in the right direction?  I also raised the  difficulty that we were having viewing the historic pictures on their website.  Again I was given a contact to follow up on this so I will let you know if I gather any helpful information on either topics.

 

Tom

[Jub45565]

Interesting point David, the plot thickens!

 

Tom if you do find anything I would definitely be interested in knowing too - ideally 1958 but anything would be good! Let's hope they have the connections/sources.

 

Cheers, Pete

[LMS29]

Good morning,

 

I have been making some progress modelling tank wagons which may be of interest.  I have the basis of a ghost train, 10 white ICI tank wagons which I based on a Dapol 20t wagon which I modified, painted and then made the decal to match those I had seen in photographs.

 

 

 

I have also had a go at some ex WD wagons which featured in one of the early photographs at Bolton Abbey.

 

 

 

And last but not least I have had a go at the tar wagon photographed in David's picture

 

 

 

We are hoping to model a winter scene this winter at our local model group, so I am working on ideas to achieve the white coating that would complete the ghost train and I will share any info I get about the Operating Timetable, if I succeed in finding anything.

 

Tom

Edited July 11, 2016 by LMS29

[Kiwirail]

The plot thickens indeed. 

 

I felt sure we'd cracked that stone/brick shed issue!  Mind you - do we have faith in a website that tells us that the access to the shed was via the station platform?  Surely there would have been an entrance to the shed area from Railway Road?

 

I found some useful stuff on one of the other forums all about ammonia tanks.  I will post a link once I refind it!

 

Thanks for the gen on the tree trunk loading.  I wonder where the trees came from.  It would have been a bit of a mission to bring them through the town to then load them on a train.  Can't think of too many loggable forestry blocks near Ilkley!

 

More in a bit.

 

Cheers

Andrew

[Kiwirail]

Check this out chaps:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/20676-ammonia-tankers/

 

They ran loaded from West to East, often covered in frost.  Ran back empty with no frost, looking completely different.

 

There's quite a bit of stuff related to this particular train.  Just run a search for 'ammonia' in the Forum Index.

 

 

Cheers

Andrew

[LMS29]

Check this out chaps:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/20676-ammonia-tankers/

 

They ran loaded from West to East, often covered in frost.  Ran back empty with no frost, looking completely different.

 

There's quite a bit of stuff related to this particular train.  Just run a search for 'ammonia' in the Forum Index.

 

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Andrew,

 

Thanks for that useful lead.  There was certainly fertilizer capacity at ICI Billingham, so the movement could be shipping in ammonia feedstock from Heysham. Not sure I like the idea of spraying the white tankers I have made with Halfords white primer.  I guest I need to make some more wagons so that I can generate a 'ghost train' to run east wards.

 

Tom

[Ronchatt]

G'day All

              Take a few days away and look what happens . The access to the loco shed

              was via "Piggy lane " , a laneway off Little Lane near Backstone Beck, took 

              you up to the rear of the shed, Also a pathway, part of a public right of way 

              that ran from the top end of Mayfield Rd  past the turntable .

              Access via the station platform could only mean the original shed .

             So one mistake or two ??  . Brick or stone ? I could be proved Wrong but I

             still think stone.

              Tom.

                   Those tanks look the real thing especially with that background. 

        

                                              Later Ron