Hornby Announce Peckett W4 0-4-0ST

[Porcy Mane]

- Re-use the Hornby wheels (which look pretty good) and turn them down (or ask a friend to turn them down) to suit

 

Looks feasible but it will be a while before I can take things further forward.

 

Carefully turning down the centre to fit inside a modified tyre from a Gibson 4838W looks like it will do the business. Keeping the original wheel boss as manufactured means even for P4 just pulling out on the original axle may work and keep thinning of the rear of the crosshead to a minimum.

 

 

The way Hornby have designed the plastic wheel centre means holding the wheel  concentrically would be diffifficult without turning up a few adaptors, so taking the lazy way out I decided to cut the Hornby tyre to separate it from the centre. Hopefully the interference fit between the straight knurling on the axle and the wheel centre will provide enough mechanical strength to resist distortion while turning down diameter of the plastic centre. If that doesn't work it will be plan B.

 

P

Edited (again!) to add missing word. "Gibson"  

Edited December 27, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[PMP]

Re vertical movement, there's currently negligible movement on either axle, I'd guess that there is opportunity to perhaps add a bit of movement vertically on the front axle by modifying the baseplate to allow the axle to 'drop' a few thou. The chassis block might also allow a springing a bit like the Bachmann 08 centre axle on the leading set of wheels.

 

Here's mine earlier, like Paul J I've also removed the number, my technique, Tamiya cotton buds with Humbrol thinners. This leaves a duller patch that I've refreshed with T-Cut.

Edited December 27, 2016 by PMP

[Quarryscapes]

Looks feasible but it will be a while before I can take things further forward.

 

Carefully turning down the centre to fit inside a modified tyre from a 4838W looks like it will do the business. Keeping the original wheel boss as manufactured means even for P4 just pulling out on the original axle may work and keep thinning of the rear of the crosshead to a minimum.

 

PeckettMedalling-002-Sm.jpg

 

The way Hornby have designed the plastic wheel centre means holding the wheel  concentrically would be diffifficult without turning up a few adaptors, so taking the lazy way out I decided to cut the Hornby tyre to separate it from the centre. Hopefully the interference fit between the straight knurling on the axle and the wheel centre will provide enough mechanical strength to resist distortion while turning down diameter of the plastic centre. If that doesn't work it will be plan B.

 

P

 

Looks like Hornby have made a very nice quality wheel there, a shame to have to chop it up! 

[decauville1126]

Re vertical movement, there's currently negligible movement on either axle, I'd guess that there is opportunity to perhaps add a bit of movement vertically on the front axle by modifying the baseplate to allow the axle to 'drop' a few thou. The chassis block might also allow a springing a bit like the Bachmann 08 centre axle on the leading set of wheels.

 

image.jpg

Here's mine earlier, like Paul J I've also removed the number, my technique, Tamiya cotton buds with Humbrol thinners. This leaves a duller patch that I've refreshed with T-Cut.

Now that is a sight to behold!

 

Once the couplers are removed and in a decent environment, the true potential of this model comes out. You could be forgiven for thinking it's a 7mm scale loco built by a top professional for a portrait in Model Railway Journal, not a commercial 4mm scale product from the likes of Hornby.

[Steamport Southport]

Er, plenty of point, I'd have thought. The main point being that you can still take advantage of the lovely Hornby body work.

 

However, if the chassis runs as well as everyone says it does, then a good alternative would be drop-in wheels.

 

I was also thinking cost wise.

 

Hornby Peckett £70 - £80. High level chassis would be around £42 based on present prices.

 

CSP/Agenoria  Peckett £85 with chassis. You've got to build it, but if you're using HL chassis then I wouldn't think that would be a problem.

 

Both would need motor, wheels, etc.

 

 

 

Jason

[Captain Kernow]

I was also thinking cost wise.

 

Hornby Peckett £70 - £80. High level chassis would be around £42 based on present prices.

 

CSP/Agenoria  Peckett £85 with chassis. You've got to build it, but if you're using HL chassis then I wouldn't think that would be a problem.

 

Both would need motor, wheels, etc.

 

The cost is a very fair point, of course (unless you were comparing RTR with RTR, in which case I suppose you'd have to factor in the cost of someone building the brass kit for you, minus a hefty discount to the value of the pleasure you get from building it yourself!).

[pete55]

Looks feasible but it will be a while before I can take things further forward.

 

Carefully turning down the centre to fit inside a modified tyre from a 4838W 

 

What wheel is 4838W? It's not in Gibsons catalogue!

After a lot of measuring and head scratching, I'm still of the opinion that the cylinders will need widening for EM using Gibson wheels.....which of course don't come as standard on 2mm axles.

[PenrithBeacon]

Don't agree, David.

 

It's true that I can't see a Peckett wheel in the current Gibson range, but the absence of a commercially produced 4mm Peckett wheel for either OO, EM or P4 would mean that one of the following choices would have to be made:

 

- Use the closest matching commercially available wheel and live with it

- Re-use the Hornby wheels (which look pretty good) and turn them down (or ask a friend to turn them down) to suit

 

The logical conclusion of your suggestion that 'there's no point if there isn't a scale wheel available' would mean that no one would ever build any of the existing brass Peckett kits, or even contemplate converting a Hornby one!

With respect you have mis-read the context which was to do with a possible High Level chassis for this truly superb RTR model.

 

In that context there is, in my view, no point in High Level doing this until at least one of the specialist wheel suppliers come up with wheel sets to convert the RTR to finescale either 00 finescale, EM or P4.

 

As neither of the finescale wheel suppliers seem to have the slightest interest in expanding their wheel range at present I would have thought that High Level would be better off looking at other ways of expanding its range.

 

As for the idea of turning the existing Hornby wheels, this is just silly pie in the sky stuff. Most modellers don't have the facilities to do this nor do we know anybody who does. And anyway how on earth would we be able to return the favour?

 

I have bought the MSC version of this truly exquisite model and it's currently sitting in a box under my bed. There it will stay until either Ultrascale or AGW decide to change their current policies towards RTR conversions. I suspect it will stay there for some time.

[pete55]

 or AGW decide to change their current policies towards RTR conversions.

 

In what way do you wish AGW (Alan Gibson) to "change their current policies towards RTR conversions"?

 

They have produced wheels for all the major RTR releases in recent years in both EM and P4/S4.

 

I fail to see what else you expect?

Edited December 27, 2016 by pete55

[Porcy Mane]

What wheel is 4838W? It's not in Gibsons catalogue!

 

Oh yes it is. (As we've entered the Panto season).

 

I fear you may have over indulged in the plum duff?

 

3' 2" disk tender wheel.

The outside face diameter is only a few thou smaller than the outside face of the Hornby wheel. The tyre has slightly wider lands so may be better for reliable electrical pick up. One of the tyres from the 4839 range may be better suited but I don't have any of them in my stash.

 

P

Edited December 27, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[31A]

Re vertical movement, there's currently negligible movement on either axle, I'd guess that there is opportunity to perhaps add a bit of movement vertically on the front axle by modifying the baseplate to allow the axle to 'drop' a few thou. The chassis block might also allow a springing a bit like the Bachmann 08 centre axle on the leading set of wheels.

 

image.jpg

Here's mine earlier, like Paul J I've also removed the number, my technique, Tamiya cotton buds with Humbrol thinners. This leaves a duller patch that I've refreshed with T-Cut.

 

 

Lovely picture!  One way to give driving wheels a bit of vertical movement in chassis of this type of design, without having to modify anything, is to put one or two washers on the retaining screws trapped between the chassis block and the keeper plate - 10BA or similar usually fit.  I've done this with a Hornby J50 (which sounds as though it has a similar arrangement of bearings) and also Bachmann 08s, on which the middle axle is already sprung but doing so gives a bit more downward travel.  An advantage of this is that it's easy to add or subtract washers until you get the best performance, and there's no risk of damaging anything.  I haven't got a Peckett (yet, although the temptation is strong!) but suspect it might be only necessary to put washer(s) on the front screw to allow some vertical movement on the front axle but keep the rear one's gear in mesh.

[pete55]

Oh yes it is. (As we've entered the Panto season).

 

I fear you may have over indulged in the plum duff?

 

3' 2" disk tender wheel.

The outside face diameter is only a few thou smaller than the outside face of the Hornby wheel. The tyre has slightly wider lands so may be better for reliable electrical pick up. One of the tyres from the 4839 range may be better suited but I don't have any of them in my stash.

 

P

 

Fair enough! I was looking at driving wheels lists......

[bertiedog]

The wheels are suitable for 18mm as they stand , they will have a slightly wider tyre, but it is minimal, and the rest of the wheel is excellent with correct spokes, so why change it?

 

For those with a lathe......or access to one..............

 

For P4 it needs re-turning a new tyre and again the original tyre can be left and the tread and flange removed without ruining the fit, and new steel tyre can be loctited onto the original, the tyre having a finished profile before being fitted.

 

The wheels would come off and fitted to a mandrill in the lathe, secured by pushing with a hollow running centre in the tail stock, and then the tyre removed till about .4 mm down from max size, leaving a flat surface. The new tyre and be turned and then bored to fit the flat, and fitted so that it's front face is flush with Hornby's front face. Then loctite the tyre on, and check it is running true, and replace on longer 2mm axles .

The cylinder unit can be split easily to widen it, and it only needs a very small amount to improve clearances, and with P4 there should be no sideplay whatsoever needed which helps.

 

Without a lathe a wheel change would be the only practical way for P4. but with EM no change is needed at all.

 

On the posters who say commercial wheels should be available, but the market is minute, the costs staggering to do new wheels, but a lathe can be bought quite cheaply, and anybody who is a club member of an MRC can surely find a fellow member with a lathe to do the work. It is barely more than a average home mechanic could easily do, it is very simple work.

 

You can even convert to P4 without a lathe, using an electric drill to hold the wheel on a shaft in the chuck, and filing the flange to the correct thinness and height. The tyre width would have to be left as is, and the cylinders moved farther apart, but it would work fine on the track, even with the wide tyres. New axles from 2mm steel would be needed.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

On springing, or allowing rock on the front axle, it is very easy, just release the retaining screw at the front, and add a thin washer under the bottom plate, This will allow the axle to move to follow the track better. A small wire spring can be fitted to bear on the middle of the axle to allow springing and rocking at the same time. Do not modify the trailing axle with the gears!

 

The Hornby design uses proper axle bearings running in the cast chassis, so nothing need be altered to make it work, it only needs a few thou of rock to make the running a touch better on rough track joints.....and that is the other point, the loco will run as is on reasonable track!! If the conversion proves vital, it is your bad track that may be the real problem......

 

The examples I have so far run perfectly without any change so far.

 

Stephen

[leavesontheline]

 

It would get my vote for model of the year! Very pleased with my H&P variant. The decoration and detailing is just exquisite. Also it is such a quiet and smooth runner, particularly for a small 0-4-0. In fact I am so pleased with it I decided to order Dodo in base green.... Took me a while to track one down though!

 

I'm looking forward to see what future variants Hornby will produce. Well done Hornby! (And well done Rails of Sheffield for getting my H&P version out to me just before Christmas as an early unexpected present to myself!)

Edited December 27, 2016 by leavesontheline

[bertiedog]

On lathes generally there is a new cheap lathe on the market, I have one to experiment with at the moment to find out what it can do. This lathe design comes from China and is a Schools project type for Chinese students. It is very basic, but accurate as far as it goes. It is based on using aluminium extruded box sections, with the bare minimum of machine surfaces.

 

It has a box section bed, but the travelling tool post moves on an attached box section of it's own, bolted to the bed.

 

The headstock has decent bearings but no gearbox, just a simple belt drive from a DC motor, therefore any speed change is down to adding electronic controls. All the slides are adjustable for play.

 

It comes with a three jaw chuck, and a tailstock centre, but no drill chuck fitted. It can therefore turn wood or plastic, between centres or turn them in the chuck, Light alloys can be turned as well, but steel cutting is slow, and needs very sharp tools to allow fine work.

 

Amazingly, with a few additions the lathe can do milling, and can have it's centre height raised with blocks, as at standard it is only 20mm over the tool post.

 

There are several versions on ebay at about £80 +P&P complete. but this is only a basis for extras like a tailstock drill chuck. The lathe is  really very small, do not expect to do heavy model engineering on it, but it will produce brass parts for locos, and wheel work with a bit of home mechanics common sense about small additions to get the best from it.

 

At worst it will turn wood very well!!!!, pens, bobbins and general treen wood items. Also it would suit watchmaking!!

 

It could handle altering the Hornby wheels quite easily though, well within its capabilities.

 

Stephen

[Kylestrome]

On lathes generally there is a new cheap lathe on the market, I have one to experiment with at the moment to find out what it can do. This lathe design comes from China and is a Schools project type for Chinese students. It is very basic, but accurate as far as it goes. It is based on using aluminium extruded box sections, with the bare minimum of machine surfaces.

 

It looks to me like a copy of the Unimat 1. Don't be fooled by the metallic looking bits, which are actually *plastic!

 

I managed to make the bits for a 2mm scale diesel chassis on one, but it was a bit of a challenge! 

 

*Edit: It looks like this particular version does actually have alluminium parts instead of plastic.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Kylestrome

[Guest Midland Mole]

Poor little things, barely a week old and already many are being torn apart, butchered...MUTILATED!

 

It's like the 1960s all over again

 

- Alex

Edited December 27, 2016 by Midland Mole

[bertiedog]

It looks to me like a copy of the Unimat 1. Don't be fooled by the metallic looking bits, which are actually plastic!

 

I managed to make the bits for a 2mm scale diesel chassis on one, but it was a bit of a challenge! 

That's the point, the thing is not like the Unimat 1, it is aluminium throughout the vital parts, the Chinese are using them in schools to teach engineering on them. The  cosmetic ends and covers are plastic, that's all really the rest is metal.

[Porcy Mane]

Poor little things, barely a week old and already many are being torn apart, butchered...

 

...and with what now seems like pre Christmas panic buying with purchasers ending up with more than a single example originally intended, I somehow think ebay may become something of a model railway equivalent to a post Christmas Battersea dogs home with all these unwanted Pecketts, unable to pay for their keep once the Chrismas Day novelty has worn off, and ending up being thrown onto the streets to fend for themselves.

 

Remember, A Peckett is for life, not just for Christmas.

 

Apparently Mr. Hen Peckett of Margate is on the lookout for a cheap example.

[Gordon A]

Gibson do the following which could be used:

4836BH 3’ 0" 12.0mm. 10 spoke Black Hawthorn Plain PB 9"     3.00mm

or

4839G 3' 3.5" 13.0mm. 10 spoke Industrial Garratt Plain PB 11" 3.66mm

 

They are not exactly Peckett wheels but with a bit of grime would not be easily spotted as such.

The BH is 1/2" under size and the Garratt an 1" over size.

 

Gordon

[Captain Kernow]

Gibson do the following which could be used:

4836BH 3’ 0" 12.0mm. 10 spoke Black Hawthorn Plain PB 9"     3.00mm

or

4839G 3' 3.5" 13.0mm. 10 spoke Industrial Garratt Plain PB 11" 3.66mm

 

They are not exactly Peckett wheels but with a bit of grime would not be easily spotted as such.

The BH is 1/2" under size and the Garratt an 1" over size.

 

Gordon

Thanks Gordon, I had a feeling something like this would apply.

[bertiedog]

The construction of the lathe is very like the Peatol, but without a steel bed surface, and it has decent bearings etc., what it lacks can be added unlike the Unimat 1, which was barely more that a toy compared to this product.

 

There is a more expensive version with a Milling/ Drilling head, which again looks like the Unimat, but is not related in design. They sell, for about £150, but I have not tried the version myself, whereas I have the basic lathe for experiment, and it all works.

 

All I added so far is a PWM power controller costing £4.99 from Ebay and a converted tail stock chuck from a Dremel type hand drill, to  allow centre drilling, and through drilling up to about 1/4 inch. Any extras can be made using the lathe, bar huge alterations.

 

Stephen.

[toboldlygo]

Poor little things, barely a week old and already many are being torn apart, butchered...MUTILATED!

 

It's like the 1960s all over again

 

- Alex

These individuals need to be reported to the newly formed RSPP....

 

(Royal Society for the Protection of Peckett's)

[Ian Hargrave]

These individuals need to be reported to the newly formed RSPP....

(Royal Society for the Protection of Peckett's)[/quote

 

Stop Press ....usually reliable sources suggest BBC to commission a new play by Ken Loach .."Dodo Come Home" ......a hard hitting exposee of model vivisection in early 20thC UK.