More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Nick Holliday]

 

That should do for routine ballasting. If you have some re-laying in mind, there are the various Stores Dept. wagons: the D334 Long Rail Wagon discussed a few posts back and its shorter brother, D335, along with the two varieties of Sleeper Wagon D306, with six plank fixed sides, and D307 where someone had had the bright idea of making the top three planks into a dropside door. As far as I'm aware none of these are available as kits in 4 mm scale. Then of course you might need a crane - and match wagons D738. Then one gets onto the really interesting question of breakdown riding and tool vans...

...

 

As I recall Colin Ashby produced 4mm plastic kits, back in the day, for the MR Sleeper wagons, of both varieties, I think. His kits were always fairly elusive, and I have only got a couple in my kit pile, and, as I could not really justify MR engineering wagons on an LBSC layout, I let the chance to buy the sleeper wagons pass, much to my later regret. Does anyone know the full range he produced? I was surprised to see an archived entry in RMweb that showed a GCR open - one that I would have acquired with alacrity at the time, if I had known of its existence, and I suspect there are more gems there.

[Lecorbusier]

here's a question ...... being a relative newbie to all of this -

 

How would I go about researching what private owners wagons might have run on the Midland Peak line passing through Monsal Dale circa 1902 .... and what kits might be available to represent them. Are photos available  for this period? Would the wagons have been the same as the MR offerings or might they be to designs used by other railways of private workshops.

 

A bit of a lesson on this would be appreciated.

 

Tim

[Brassey]

here's a question ...... being a relative newbie to all of this -

 

How would I go about researching what private owners wagons might have run on the Midland Peak line passing through Monsal Dale circa 1902 .... and what kits might be available to represent them. Are photos available  for this period? Would the wagons have been the same as the MR offerings or might they be to designs used by other railways of private workshops.

 

A bit of a lesson on this would be appreciated.

 

Tim

 

PO Wagons generally split between those owned by the collieries and those operated by local coal merchants.

 

You could research which coal merchants were active in Monsal Dale or thereabouts in the period.  These kind of wagons were usually the ones to be found in local yards

 

The collieries sent large quantities from the pits in long mineral trains to whoever has place the order.  If your layout was on a main line near any collieries then there would be coal traffic in one direction and empties in the other.

 

There are several books on PO Wagons not least the series by Keith Turton featuring many photos.

 

PO wagons were built by private contractors such as Gloucester or Roberts and were not generally supplied by the railway companies.  In terms of kits, POWsides produce pre lettered PO wagons and transfers as did Slaters and Cambrian which you can pick up on auction sites.  I have come to the conclusion that life is too short to hand letter PO Wagons as my layout is on the West to North route out of South Wales and I need a lot of them so my source is pre lettered.  Others may differ

Edited October 20, 2017 by Brassey

[Compound2632]

One starting point is the index to the Lightmoor PO wagon books: http://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf - It's not very user-friendly but I've had a go at trawling through this for particular owners; with determination you could pick out likely-looking owners for your area. This just tells you which books to go and look in to discover that there's nothing relevant to your period...

 

A couple of relevant RMWeb topics:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108035-19th-century-and-pre-1906-po-wagon-books-information/

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65784-is-there-a-register-of-po-wagons/

 

The latter mentions the Midland Railway Private owner wagon registration books in the National Archives - an interesting day out; I've been there several times looking through Midland documents, but not these. What I don't expect these to do is give you the sort of information you need to build an accurate model but knowing a thing existed is a start...

 

Also, there are some very helpful people on here who, if they haven't already done the research you're interested in, would I'm sure point you in the right directions. But beware: I have a dreadful feeling researching private owner wagons could become a full-time hobby.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Compound2632

[Nick Holliday]

PO Wagons generally split between those owned by the collieries and those operated by local coal merchants.

 

You could research which coal merchants were active in Monsal Dale or thereabouts in the period.  These kind of wagons were usually the ones to be found in local yards

 

The collieries sent large quantities from the pits in long mineral trains to whoever has place the order.  If your layout was on a main line near any collieries then there would be coal traffic in one direction and empties in the other.

 

There are several books on PO Wagons not least the series by Keith Turton featuring many photos.

 

PO wagons were built by private contractors such as Gloucester or Roberts and were not generally supplied by the railway companies.  In terms of kits, POWsides produce pre lettered PO wagons and transfers as did Slaters and Cambrian which you can pick up on auction sites.  I have come to the conclusion that life is too short to hand letter PO Wagons as my layout is on the West to North route out of South Wales and I need a lot of them so my source is pre lettered.  Others may differ

There is a third type of coal trader, the larger merchants or factors, such a Stephenson Clarke, who could cover large areas of the country, and often representing a group of collieries.

There is a superb resource on the Lightmoor Press website, a complete index of published private traders wagons. Using this you can search for entries against the various stations along the line, which would give a good idea of local merchants. Finding suitable factors is a bit harder, but perhaps someone can point towards suitable candidates for your area.

To a certain extent, selecting collieries that might have supplied directly is up to you, as often special types of coal meant that a distant supplier migh be preferred, such as anthracite from South Wales that almost always was delivered in colliery owned wagons (One of Turton's books is dedicated to this trade), or occasionally an unmissable bargain might be offered when a mine is trying to clear stocks.

What you probably will have to do is look through appropriate photo albums to spot potential examples, with the Lightmoor index helping to identify the names.

As far as models are concerned, at least in 4mm, don't ignore the RTR examples. The latest Bachmann, Hornby and Oxford offerings are often every bit as good as, or even better than, a kit built wagon. The only problem is that some of the older offerings are less accurate, but often they still look reasonable on a layout.

[Compound2632]

As far as models are concerned, at least in 4mm, don't ignore the RTR examples. The latest Bachmann, Hornby and Oxford offerings are often every bit as good as, or even better than, a kit built wagon. The only problem is that some of the older offerings are less accurate, but often they still look reasonable on a layout.

 

Not for Lecorbusier's (or my) pre 1905 period!

 

Say No! to RCH 1923 wagons in pre-1923 liveries!

[Lecorbusier]

I have thumbed through a few PO books .... Bill Hudson's, and a couple of the Keith Turton volumes .... and the first thing that struck me was that from memory not one of the wagons was built pre 1906 .... and most were after grouping. I have Bob Essery's excellent book on wagons that allows me to select appropriate Midland types. Given that the number of PO manufacturers was I believe relatively limited, I suppose I was wondering if it might be possible first off to pin down the likely wagon types and design .... one could then hazard a guess as to the companies and lettering to put on? I know for my line and period there would have been the ubiquitous coal trains from the relevant colliery, local coal merchants (of which I think I have the relevant ones), Butterly's wagons, MR wagons, Limestone quarry wagons spar wagons and lime wagons. Any guesses how I would track down the relevant 2, 3, 5 and 7 plank wagon types for 1902? (apart from the midland ones that is)

[Nick Holliday]

Not for Lecorbusier's (or my) pre 1905 period!

 

Say No! to RCH 1923 wagons in pre-1923 liveries!

Fair comment; as I typed Oxford I was thinking most of their output is based on 1923 standards, but there are a few older designs in the other ranges that might suit. However, since, as I recall, all of the Slaters range is based on 1907 standards or later, and most, if not all, of the Cambrian range is likewise, also applicable to Parkside, both old and current ranges, you are a bit on a hiding to nothing with regard to finished wagons. The only suitable wagon kits I can think of are the various whitemetal ones from 5&9 Models and the S&C wagons from Roxey, all of which are dumb-buffered!

As regards Lecorbusier's comments, I will agree that many of the examples in the books are post grouping, but there are plenty of early examples, particularly in Montague's book on the Gloucester company, although whether they are pertinent to the Monsal Dale area is debatable.

Although modellers tend to think of only a handful of wagon builders, there were probably over a hundred scattered around the UK, as Chris Sambrook's massive tome from Lightmoor on the subject indicates. Len Tavender's book on coal trade wagons has his drawings of a wide variety of styles of older wagons which might be inspirational.

[Brislines]

Continuing the Huntly & Palmers theme, I’ve started on one of the dumb buffered wagons from the batch of five supplied by the Birmingham Wagon Co. in 1873. My reference for this build is the third wagon (No. 1) in this photo, so there’s quite a bit of guesswork involved expecially as the photo shows the non-braked side – as it does for the other two wagons of this type near the rear of the train. As with the 1889 iron framed wagon, the starting point is Cambrian kit C74. As will be seen, this introduces several compromises, starting with the length – 15’0” or 60 mm – which may be a bit long for a wagon of the 1870s. Reference to various drawings of dumb buffered wagons shows that the buffers typically stick out 15” – 16” beyond the wagon body, so I cut a piece of 0.157” x 0.060” Plastikard Microstrip 70 mm long to form the solebar and a piece 24.5 mm long for the headstock – giving enough width between the solebars to fit an MJT etched axleguard unit. These I welded square, with the headstock inset 5 mm from the end of the solebar:

 

H&P dumb buffered underframe construction.JPG

 

To help keep the whole assembly square, I cut a rectangle of 60 thou (0.060”) plasticard as a false floor sitting inside the solebars and headstocks. The dumb buffers were built up with a slip of 20 thou plasticard and a piece of the solebar microstrip to give a thickness of 0.140” – 3.6 mm, close enough to the 11” of the prototype – or at least, of LNWR and Midland timber trucks, which are the dumb buffered wagons for which I have the most information. The MJT axleguard etch comes with a selection of crownplates, coupling plates and other solebar ironwork – having already sprayed these black, my cunning plan is to add them after I’ve painted the base colour.

 

H&P dumb buffered underframe with MJT fret.JPG

 

I have, however, added the inner brackets in microstrip, as for my LNWR D12/D13 timber truck builds, though subsequent reference to the photo in Pannier39 suggests this might not be the correct arrangement for a Birmingham Wagon Co. wagon (see post #241). I’ve assumed that the solebar height should be 11” – a standard dimension. The microstrip is a scale 12” high (0.157” = 4 mm), so I filed and sanded down the tops of the dumb buffers and the headstock to closer to scale. As before, I’ve rounded off the Cambrian end to closer to an arc profile. The back of the end pillars where they project below the end sheeting are not flush with the sheeting, so the end sticks out from the headstock. I cured the rear of the end pillars down to cure this. With one axleguard unit in place for a trial fit, I’ve got something that looks like and overgrown platform barrow:

 

H&P dumb buffered wagon end assembly.JPG

 

As I noted with my Hornby wagon conversion, the MJT axleguard units get in the way of the tail of the Slater’s 3-link coupling hook, so I’ve sawn and filed a chunks out of these:

 

H&P dumb buffered underframe modified MJT axleguards.JPG

 

This photo illustrates the value of taking photos as one goes along – it’s reminded me that I need to fill in the holes in the ends of the siderails where the headstocks aren’t…

 

I’ve used thaeCambrian floor on top of my false floor to keep the sides the right distance out from the solebars. The Cambrian sides needed some modification – the kit has door catches on the top plank, whereas, like my previous H&P wagon, this one has the catches to the side. However, this wagon does have diagonal strapping. The moulding has round door banger plates; I carefully shaved these off and recycled them on the Gloucester wagon, solving a problem there:

 

H&P Birmingham1873 and Gloucester 1908 wagons.JPG

 

The pencil marks on the solebar mark the axle positions for 9’0” wheelbase; following a comment of wagonman’s, for this photo I’ve set the wheelbase to 8’6”. The axleguard units aren’t glued in place yet, I’m still pondering this, taking into account the suspicion that the 15’ body may be too long anyway.

 

I'm still completely fogged by the idea that the D304 wagons for Carr's biscuit traffic should be found in Swansea Vale - please explain.

 

Dumb Buffered Wagons! Yet another project I have in mind. This is truly the thread that keeps giving! 

[Brislines]

Paint fading with age was mentioned earlier in the thread. This reminded me of some experiments I had done several years ago so I had a dig around... and Lo! Three examples of my work (which may or may not bear up to scrutiny) that I was quite happy with at the time.

[billbedford]

here's a question ...... being a relative newbie to all of this -

 

How would I go about researching what private owners wagons might have run on the Midland Peak line passing through Monsal Dale circa 1902 .... and what kits might be available to represent them. Are photos available  for this period? Would the wagons have been the same as the MR offerings or might they be to designs used by other railways of private workshops.

 

A bit of a lesson on this would be appreciated.

 

 

 

You'll need to find a copy of 'Coal Trade Wagons' by Len Tavender ISBN 10: 0951098713  ISBN 13: 9780951098714

 

They're a bit like hen's teeth though.

[Compound2632]

Fair comment; as I typed Oxford I was thinking most of their output is based on 1923 standards, but there are a few older designs in the other ranges that might suit. However, since, as I recall, all of the Slaters range is based on 1907 standards or later, and most, if not all, of the Cambrian range is likewise, also applicable to Parkside, both old and current ranges, you are a bit on a hiding to nothing with regard to finished wagons. The only suitable wagon kits I can think of are the various whitemetal ones from 5&9 Models and the S&C wagons from Roxey, all of which are dumb-buffered!

 

I think that's a little over-pessimistic; the ex-Slater's Gloucester wagons do for plenty of pre-1907 wagons in the Keith Montague book - in fact the round-bottomed axleboxes are found on wagons built in the 1890s rather than 1900s. In other words, they're good for what Gloucester were building after the RCH 1887 specification was introduced. The dumb buffered wagons you mention are pre-1887.

 

In the context of the Midland around 1900-5, I get the impression that dumb buffered PO wagons were rather rarer than elsewhere, as a consequence of the Midland buying up 60,000-odd PO wagons in the 1880s and building D299 open wagons to take their place. The effect of this policy seems in fact to have been to give the PO operators on the Midland system money in their pockets to go out and buy or hire nice new wagons to the 1887 specification!

[billbedford]

Paint fading with age was mentioned earlier in the thread. 

 

 

Grey paint got darker with age because the white lead it was mixed with oxidised over time.

[Miss Prism]

For a typical 7:1 black to white mix in GWR grey, the fading of the black pigment was a far more significant factor than the darkening of the white.

[Compound2632]

Halfords red primer seems to be in the air today (cf. Londontram’s status) so here’s an update on my progress in that direction. But first, axleboxes and brakes:

 

 

The Coopercraft O5 is the one seen in pieces here. Dunked in Precision Superstrip, the remaining joints came apart (it had been cemented together) so I was able to start more-or-less from scratch. I understand that there were only 200 wagons built to diagram O5 but it is alleged that it’s good for earlier 4-plank wagons. I’ve taken the view that an earlier 4-plank wagon, like the outside framed van, would have grease axleboxes and conventional brakes on one side only. I found a dimensioned sketch (7 mm scale) purporting to be of a GW grease axlebox, though I’m not entirely confident of the projecting lip at the top. On the O5, I sliced away the front of the oil axlebox and stuck on a 2 mm by 3 mm rectangle of 30 thou plasticard, bevelled at the top. A piece of 30 thou by 10 thou microstrip made the lip, and a 2 mm square of 10 thou the sloping lid.

 

I hope Ian won’t mind if I describe the axleboxes on the old Kirk van as overblown monstrosities. The brown plastic is quite hard so I ended up filing about 0.5 mm off the front before using the craft knife to skim the width down to nearer 2 mm. I don’t like filing plastic – it makes for unpleasant dust and I don’t think it’s good for the file either. I just added the microstrip lip and plasticard lid to each box. The original brake gear was rather amorphous too, so that’s been replaced with a spare from a Coopercraft sprue; the O5 has new gear too as the pushrods for DC brakes are arranged the opposite way as for conventional brakes. The O5 has a Coopercraft brake lever but the van has kept its original one. I hope you will look closely enough to see that I’ve added the vertical piece of ironwork that supports the brake rod from behind the pushrods (also on the V6)! The plastic buffers and housings have been replaced with ones from MJT – I hope they’re the right sort. I put them on with the curved side at the bottom – seemed right, so I hope it is! The V6 has been given the same buffers and Coopercraft brakes. The Kirk van has kept its turned brass buffer housings. So, into the paint shop for the famous red lead, aka Halfords red primer:

 

 

It’s not been a good day for photography in natural light, but under artificial light this looks like a ‘warm red’ to me! But doubt has set in: why does the V6 have a grey roof? It’s iron, like the rest of the vehicle, so why isn’t it painted the same? When I painted it dark grey all those years ago, I gave it a dark grey roof too… (It’s got no rivets, neither…)

 

So, Miss Prism, that's my answer to what colour Great Western grey should be!

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Miss Prism]

So, Miss Prism, that's my answer to what colour Great Western grey should be!

 

I have no problem with Halfords red primer, although my authority for Swindon Improved Wagon Red remains Mikkel, who has given the matter a lot more thought than I have. His 'faded' recipe is given on http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html

 

[wagonman]

Paint fading with age was mentioned earlier in the thread. This reminded me of some experiments I had done several years ago so I had a dig around... and Lo! Three examples of my work (which may or may not bear up to scrutiny) that I was quite happy with at the time.

 

 

MR policy was to paint new(ish) wagons with a relatively light grey (like your LH example but older wagons would be repainted in 'smudge' (I think that's what they called it) which was basically a darker grey made up of whatever stuff was lying around the paint shop. Not the red stuff though, obvs. Looking at photos older wagons are usually darker but not just through the effects of weather.

 

 

Richard

[wagonman]

here's a question ...... being a relative newbie to all of this -

 

How would I go about researching what private owners wagons might have run on the Midland Peak line passing through Monsal Dale circa 1902 .... and what kits might be available to represent them. Are photos available  for this period? Would the wagons have been the same as the MR offerings or might they be to designs used by other railways of private workshops.

 

A bit of a lesson on this would be appreciated.

 

Tim

 

There wasn't much traffic originating/terminating at Monsal Dale in c1902 – Bill Hudson reckons about 1300 tons of coal a year or 4-5 wagon loads a week. Frank Lomas of Bakewell acted as Coal Merchant. The spar mine wasn't yet open either. So you're mostly looking at through traffic.

 

Research material: apart from having a copy of Bill Hudson's 'Through Limestone Hills' (ISBN 0860932176) which is a must, and Len Tavender's 'Coal Trade Wagons' which would be useful, you should consult appropriate MR Working Timetables (NRM or TNA?), contemporary issues of Kelly's Directory (probably available online via Leicester University), and as many period photos as you can lay your hands on.

 

Look for wagons from Clay Cross, Eckington, Nathaniel Atrill, the ubiquitous Stephenson Clarke, J C Abbott, Lowell Baldwin, Staveley Coal & Iron and others. Local stone companies like J Greatorex, W E Constable etc – more details in Hudson – would also be seen passing through. I don't know how many merchants still used dumb buffer wagons on the MR in 1902 – in Somerset there were loads – probably not many, but they did generally prefer smaller 8 ton wagons whereas the big collieries and factors preferred 10 ton and even in 1902 possibly a few 12 ton wagons. At that date there may still have been a few dumb buffered exPO wagons running around in MR livery.

 

The MR Private Owner Wagon Registers at TNA in Kew are surprisingly detailed giving dimensions (internal of course) frame material, wheels/wheelbase, makers of axles as well as owner/financier. I can't remember exactly what they include as it is over 30 years since I last had a look at them, but there are only about 3 of them covering the pre 1902 years. Think of it as nice day out!

 

As for the relative proportion of PO to D299... you're on your own there. Let's just say you will need a lot of D299s and quite a few D305s as well.

 

 

Richard

[Lecorbusier]

Thanks for the input Richard, very helpful.

 

I have been doing a little digging around regarding deliveries in and traffic out from the wharf at Monsal Dale ... to some extent it calls into question Bill Hudson's figures. It would appear that there was a siding located at Hassop named Monsal Dale siding, and given the facilities at Monsal Dale and the increase in coal delivery from 1900 to 1922 in Bill's figures the consensus currently is that the figures most likely relate to the siding rather than the wharf at Monsal Dale itself. The wharf is set 3'6" above rail top for its entire length and unloading even the 3 - 4 wagons weekly up in to carts and then transporting down the precipitous track and across the ford at the bottom would have been a big ask .... the later 22 wagons weekly is just not credible. I also have figures from the mine which suggest a few thousand tons yearly of calcite were being extracted by this time, and in addition to this there was a limestone quarry on the same site. I therefore suspect that the only incoming coal to the wharf was very small beer .... for domestic delivery by Frank Lomas ( perhaps 2 - 3 hundred tons yearly), and the coal to service the steam pumps to the mine. Apart from this I suspect the wharf was used mainly for shipping out from the mine (edit and quarry).

 

So in terms of the wharf I am thinking in terms of a few Frank Lomas and maybe M.R. or Butterly coal wagons in (D299) and perhaps something else. For shipping out I am inclined to go for 3 plank wagons ... or perhaps 4 ... maybe Midland or perhaps the Buxton Limestone co or ..... ?

 

I will then have to work out the make up of the stopping goods coming up from Rowsley and taking anything out (maybe dropping off empties) for sorting at Millers Dale. I then have the through goods ... both up and down and the stopping goods on the return back to Rowsley. So plenty of scope for some interesting wagons (though some will be either full or empty coal trains).

Edited October 21, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Rail-Online]

Nice pics!  Looks like Bolsover POs in the second but they are lettered in the later style 'on the curve', I thought they might be straight in the pre 1902 period so are these images dated?

 

Forgot to say - what is the van in the first pic? It has side windows so might well be a 'Tariff Van' serving the stations en route.

 

Cheers Tony

Edited October 21, 2017 by Rail-Online

[Lecorbusier]

Tony,

 

I thought it was a Tarrif Van.

 

On the dating, all I have is pre war .... I am working on the basis that the train make ups will not have changed significantly from my chosen date.

[Compound2632]

I will then have to work out the make up of the stopping goods coming up from Rowsley and taking anything out (maybe dropping off empties) for sorting at Millers Dale. I then have the through goods ... both up and down and the stopping goods on the return back to Rowsley. So plenty of scope for some interesting wagons (though some will be either full or empty coal trains).

Monsal Viaduct-add 2.jpgMonsal Viaduct-4.jpg

 

Like I said, Richard is very generous with his input. I wouldn't have done my Huntley & Palmers wagons without his help.

 

What an amazing pair of photos! Views of complete goods trains from this period where one has half a chance of making out the composition seem very rare. It's a shame the second picture was taken into the sun, so the visible sides of the wagons are in shade. In the first picture, I'd be pretty confident the first fifteen vehicles are all Midland - from the livery of the engine (whether before or after the 1907 renumbering) I'd say this is definitely pre-pooling. I'd go for:

 

D299, sheeted.

D299, empty, or with a very low-lying load.

D305, with a load that is sheeted inside the wagon but no sheet overall - interesting as from my reading I would expect double-sheeting.

D299, ditto - but look how much lighter it loos than the rest; clearly recently (re)painted.

D382A Tariff Brake Van - I agree, I can't see that it can be anything else. Very timely re. my post about S&DJR Road Vans!

D299, with stacked boxes or crates? But a cargo that doesn't need protection from the weather.

D299, with another internally-sheeted load.

D299, barrels or casks?

D305, ditto?

D305, sheeted - clearly conveying a pyramid!

D299 x 5, all sheeted - the loads don't project much above the sides of the wagons, so the sheet is fairly flat but clearly some danger of puddles forming if it rains! (The first wagon looks to have a real hollow dip - very bad practice?)

5 x PO coal wagons. The first two look a bit taller than the last three - 7 plank then 6 plank wagons?

Brake - I think there's a hint it might be a 6-wheeler (15 or 20 ton, D393/D394) rather than a 10 ton D390 4-wheeler - it looks a bit longer than the wagons and there look to be three dark patches at solebar level.

 

Absolutely brilliant - such a modelable train, modest length, it has me reaching for my stock of Midland wagon sheets... (Note how the sheets usually cover most of the wagon side - there's a saving in transfers!

 

The second train is mostly empty coal wagons - as one would expect, heading back to the Nottinghamshire coalfield. Some long timber loads and a couple of longer flat wagons too - D339?

 

Thanks for posting!

 

Also, I had a further thought re. the discussion about ballast trains and 3-plank dropside wagons. At 31 January 1894, there were 20,499 low sided wagons in stock; 4,750 D305 wagons had been built to Drawing 213 in six Lots in the period 1877-1887 - represented by Mousa's "1882" wagon. This means there were 15,749 lowsided wagons of earlier design in use - the majority represented by Mousa's "1874" wagon with wooden brake blocks. Even by c. 1905 there must still have been many thousands in use, if one assumes the total number of such wagons remained stable, as only a further 1,500 D305 wagons to the new Drawing 1143 had been built in 1897-8. So I think one can be pretty confident that ballast wagons, lettered E D in lieu of M R, would be the "1874" type. 

[Lecorbusier]

Thanks for the input Stephen ... really helpful.

 

Glad you liked the images.

 

I may be wrong but might hazard a guess that the 5 sheeted wagons could be lime?

 

The fact that the last arch of the bridge still has timber centring might help to date the picture ... can't remember when this was done off the top.

 

The low wagons in the first photo might well be spar ... given the relative density?

 

Tim

[Compound2632]

I may be wrong but might hazard a guess that the 5 sheeted wagons could be lime?

 

The fact that the last arch of the bridge still has timber centring might help to date the picture ... can't remember when this was done off the top.

 

Lime would explain why there are five wagons together all similarly sheeted and the load not projecting above the sides. General merchandise - wagon-loads of crates, hampers, etc. - would surely look more diverse even when sheeted.

 

What's going on with the viaduct? The arch with the timber centring looks more weathered than the rest and also has what look like the load-spreading plates for iron tie-bars - was the viaduct being rebuilt one arch at a time? That would also explain the raw appearance of the embankment opposite. It would be quite a feature to model the viaduct undergoing reconstruction!

 

EDIT: Googling turned up this - claiming 1905. Most modern views seem to be taken from the north-east side - by the pub, where the modern Ordnance Survey shows a viewpoint. To get the view of the goods train from the south side, the photographer must have had to lug his camera and glass plates a good quarter of a mile down a footpath! I see the little footbridge over the Wye is still there, apparently little changed.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Compound2632

[Lecorbusier]

Slippage occurred requiring remedial work to the viaduct at the east end .... here the centring is -:

 

In 1907-8, remedial work was undertaken to counteract the effects of slippage. Timber centring was erected under one or more of the arches east of the river to carry this out. The south elevation has an extensive area of blue brick in the spandrel wall above the eastern arches, probably indicating the repairs. Other patch repairs over the years have been made in gritstone and red brick, marring the overall effect close up.

 

This would suggest that the photo was taken post the renumbering.