More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[BG John]

Has anyone tried making plates with a Silhouette cutter, or is that something that's beyond its abilities? I haven't got anywhere near trying that sort of thing with mine yet!

[Dave John]

I have had a go at making CR wagon number plates on the silhouette. So far I have not been successful. The knife blade can't turn enough in a short distance to create letters that small, and overcutting just chops the whole lot to bits. It may well need a refinement of my cutting technique or a different material, I might have another go at some point. 

 

Then again there are now a lot of silhouette users amongst us ; someone might have cracked the method.

[Buhar]

247 Developments might be willing to stick a few on an etch next time they're doing something.  They did some LNWR nameplates for me.

[BG John]

Any idea what these badly parked ones at Stourbridge in 1903 are?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=oZDAxgVQ&id=5841EA0A74DD60E9831BC926BB2D50EAB549F69F&thid=OIP.oZDAxgVQPKpKJaBfPZ9qSAEsDN&q=stourbridge+tpwn+train+crash&simid=608003887386659878&selectedindex=4&ajaxhist=0&first=1

[Compound2632]

Any idea what these badly parked ones at Stourbridge in 1903 are?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=oZDAxgVQ&id=5841EA0A74DD60E9831BC926BB2D50EAB549F69F&thid=OIP.oZDAxgVQPKpKJaBfPZ9qSAEsDN&q=stourbridge+tpwn+train+crash&simid=608003887386659878&selectedindex=4&ajaxhist=0&first=1

 

That's an angle you don't usually get! It must be post-1904 as the large G W initials are just about in evidence. The wagon going up on the left looks like a 3-plank open, nearly 7,000 of which were built (or converted from broad gauge) between 1879 and 1887, when the 4-plank design was adopted. The number so far as it is visible seems to be 3(?)291 - if it's actually a 5-digit number, it doesn't tie in with any of those listed by Atkins et al. - it might be a 4-digit number, one of those listed as 'various', a replacement for an older wagon. This rather a handy photo, since just this evening I've been soldering together an old Great Western Wagons whitemetal kit for one of these, that I was given some while ago. The wagon going down on the right, waving its wooden brake blocks in the air, if it is Great Western is presumably one of the 1,790 1-plank wagons built 1868-1871 - with wooden frames, iron frames only coming in with the 3-plank wagons if I recall Atkins et al. correctly. The wagon on the level on the right looks as if it might be a 2-plank wagon (neatly completing the set) - 4,900 built 1871-1878. Again, no longer having the book to hand but from memory I think Atkins et al. said the 2-plank design used 11" planks, giving 22" depth; the 3-plank wagons used 7"-and a bit, giving the same depth - which tallies with this photo.

 

The photo gives some clues to the sheeting of wagons though the loads may have shifted...

 

EDIT: I'm not confident the one on the left is 3-plank; looking again it might be 4-plank.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Interesting photo!

 

The caption reads: "Train crash at Stourbridge railway goods yard and canal basin, Easter Monday 1903".

 

In extension of that date, I wonder if the left hand one is in fact a GWR wagon. The lettering does not necessarily look like "GW"?
 

[Compound2632]

Interesting photo!

 

The caption reads: "Train crash at Stourbridge railway goods yard and canal basin, Easter Monday 1903".

 

In extension of that date, I wonder if the left hand one is in fact a GWR wagon. The lettering does not necessarily look like "GW"?

 

 

Early 1903? Well isn't that a bit worrying? The wagon on the left (3 or 4 plank) is from its design clearly Great Western. At the right-hand end (or top, as it is), it has 10 Tons Tare (digits not clear) on the bottom plank which is the style for the large G W initials and I interpreted the two marks on the plank above as the bottom of the W. Then there's clearly the bottom of the G above the number. I concede that the letter on the right hand wagon might not be a G - it could be aCaledonian wagon, for example, but I think that for the date and location the simplest assumption must be that it's Great Western.

 

All these wretched bystanders getting in the way!

[Mikkel]

You are right, it' GW. Found another photo of the scene: 

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventimages.php?eventID=1302&imageID=653

 

Now says 1902, so looks like a caption issue. 

[Compound2632]

You are right, it' GW. Found another photo of the scene: 

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventimages.php?eventID=1302&imageID=653

 

Now says 1902, so looks like a caption issue. 

 

... and the number is: 55291 - a 4-plank open of Lot 8. Apologies for seeing 3 planks - wishful thinking. One last blast of Halfords red on my 3-planker then time for bed!

[Mikkel]

This caption says 1905, best bet yet. Photo is larger when opened separately, showing the other two wagons in more detail. Serious damage to that one planker!

 

http://www.digital-photographic-images.co.uk/staffordshire/amblecote/amblecote-stourbridge-train-crash.htm

 

Edit: 1905 fits this entry on Wikipedia:

 

24 April 1905 – the driver lost control of a locomotive descending the branch, head-first, at the head of 32 wagons. The train demolished the stop block and smashed into and through the goods office at the end of the branch. Luckily the crew managed to jump clear before impact.

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stourbridge_Town_branch_line

Edited November 6, 2017 by Mikkel

[Dave John]

Hmm, but look at those spindly spokes, the mirror polished dome  and the collection of hats. 

 

Great pic. 

[Mikkel]

Hmm, but look at those spindly spokes, the mirror polished dome  and the collection of hats. 

 

Great pic. 

 

Indeed. 

 

Also interesting to see the two-plank open, rarely modelled. They were built 1871-1878. No. 21688 is from osL103 (21685-21784) in the Atkins et al list.

 

The number of the one-plank is a  bit more tricky. Obviously "109" can be seen on the wagonside. The rest of the answer seems to be on the solebar: Like other one-plank wagons, "GWR" is carved into the solebar, as well as the number. Zooming in I think the first two numbers on the solebar are "13" (the brakegear has been fitted later, almost covering the "1"). This gives us 13109 , which would fit the 13069-368 batch under osL31, built sometime between 1868 and 1871.

 

I shall now go and do something useful with my life 

[Compound2632]

Good find! I do hope this didn't keep you awake all night!

 

So, April 1905 - just a year after the adoption of the large G W style and two out of a random sample of three opens have it. The 4-planker looks to have been very recently repainted - Lot 8 would built about 1893, so maybe in this case eleven years before an overhaul calling for a repaint? (Noting that the reference photos for my three 4-plankers were 1901-2 and the oldest was wearing its original 1888 livery style.) The 2-plank wagon has evidently been in traffic for a while after repainting - note the difference between the woodwork and the ironwork. The 1-plank wagon has the old style laid out "13109 To Carry 8 Tons G.W.R" and no room for the tare weight - presumably that's on the solebar behind the chap in the bowler. Also "G W R" carved into the solebar.

 

Atkins et al. indicate that many of these older 1- and 2-plank standard gage wagons were built at the former West Midland Railway (OWWR) works at Worcester or the Shrewsbury & Chester works at Saltney, though they don't say which Lots were built where.

 

A couple of photos at Cinderford taken c. 1890 appear in MikeOxon's blog, in a discussion of he red livery, include several 1-plank wagons. Where the lettering can be read, it's in the earlier style "G.W.R To Carry ? Tons [number]" - on the most freshly-painted wagon, there is further writing at the top of the plank to the right of the number, which might be the tare weight. There's a relatively freshly-painted 4-plank wagon with a number in the 4xxxx series, in the same lettering style as my model of 44510 (G.W.R to the left on the bottom plank) but the 3 and 2 plank wagons have G.W.R and the number on the second plank up with To Carry ? Tons on the bottom plank under G.W.R at the left but no tare weight under the number - the 3-plank wagon possibly has this at the right-hand end of the top plank, without the word Tare. The evidence of 13109 at Stourbridge suggests that this earlier style might be unlikely to survive until 1905 but maybe I can get away with it for two or three years earlier?

Edited November 7, 2017 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

This overnight discussion prompted me to think a bit more boldly about the lettering layout for my 3-plank wagon. I’ve decided to follow the style of the 3-plank wagon No. 260 seen at Cinderford c. 1890, in the photo in MixeOxon’s blog:

 

 

My interpretation of the Cinderford photos is that the wagons that look darker are recently painted and the lighter ones have been in traffic for some years and hence the paint is well weathered – not just well-rubbed down and grimy but also having reacted with atmospheric pollutants. I should say that that wasn’t Mike’s interpretation; the blog post led to a long discussion. In the same Cinderford photo we have a 4-plank wagon with a number in the 4xxxx series, indicating that it’s from one of the earlier Lots built c. 1887-1890; if the c. 1890 date of the photo is correct, this fits with the wagon looking quite newly painted. In my post on my 4-plank wagons, I noted the photo in Atkins et al. demonstrating that the lettering style seen on this wagon survived until 1902. As the 3-plank wagon’s paintwork looks in similar condition, I’m guessing that it might have survived just as long. Construction of 3-plank wagons continued until 1887. The later Lots are listed as either converted from broad gauge (Nos. 11501-11900) or as being given various old numbers, so I’ll posit that No. 260 is from one of these Lots (old series Lots 348, 374, 380 or 384). Atkins et al. don’t give comprehensive information on the dates of Lots, though they clearly know, since their photo captions give both Lot number and build date. So I’ve pushed the boat out and picked a number from old series Lot 325.

 

There were altogether 6,960 3-plank wagons built or converted from broad gauge, making up around 9% of the Great Western’s wagon stock c. 1902/3 – the second most common type after the 4-plank wagons. I was given this Great Western Wagons kit last year. The very comprehensive booklet with the kit is dated 1997. In addition to round-ended and broad gauge versions of the 3-plank wagon, kits for the outside-framed van, N6 loco coal wagon, X4 meat van and Y2 fruit van are listed. These are all listed in David Geen’s range, so I assume these are the very same kits.

 

[wagonman]

 

I was given this Great Western Wagons kit last year. The very comprehensive booklet with the kit is dated 1997. In addition to round-ended and broad gauge versions of the 3-plank wagon, kits for the outside-framed van, N6 loco coal wagon, X4 meat van and Y2 fruit van are listed. These are all listed in David Geen’s range, so I assume these are the very same kits.

 

 

They are indeed the same – and very useful to the likes of us!

[Mikkel]

So, April 1905 - just a year after the adoption of the large G W style and two out of a random sample of three opens have it.

 

Yes, in a way it is surprising that the livery changes happens so relatively quickly. For all our interest in the transition period and hybrid liveries, the new 1904 livery quickly becomes dominant. The old livery is still evident in photos from 1904 and 1905, but it is rare to see it after that. Not bad, given the size of the fleet. Why the hurry? Who's going to complain? As we've observed in contemporary magazines, the public weren't paying much attention to wagon liveries!

 

Here is a "late" example of the pre-1904 livery, if the picture is correctly dated. Three liveries in 1906:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrdt2830.htm

[wagonman]

 

 

Here is a "late" example of the pre-1904 livery, if the picture is correctly dated. Three liveries in 1906:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrdt2830.htm

 

 

I would beg to differ with Mr Ferris on a number of points: first, the GWR 2-plank wagons were as deep as the later 3-plank as they were built with wider planks. The wagon in the photo is almost certainly a 1-plank type which had sides 11in deep. In that case the number must be 15581, built on osL 36.

 

Secondly, while the right hand wagon clearly has the cast metal plates, the one on the left has painted letters – the spacing is too wide and there appears to be a tare weight above the 'G.W.R' which didn't happen with cast plate style.

 

That's enough pedantry for one evening...

 

 

Richard

[Mikkel]

Yes, the original photo shows the liveries better: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrdt2823.htm

[wagonbasher]

Yes, the original photo shows the liveries better: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrdt2823.htm

 

Could we explore his further for the less informed am I interpreting this correctly?

 

So, 4 plank on the left is in the Red livery with painted letters, branding etc,

 

Middle wagon is in the new Grey livery with big lettering,

 

So is the right hand wagon (another 4 plank GWR), is that red but with just cast plates?

 

Andy

[Compound2632]

Could we explore his further for the less informed am I interpreting this correctly?

 

So, 4 plank on the left is in the Red livery with painted letters, branding etc,

 

Middle wagon is in the new Grey livery with big lettering,

 

So is the right hand wagon (another 4 plank GWR), is that red but with just cast plates?

 

Andy

 

That would be my interpretation, based on the "red until large G W" theory. My take on these photos is that I very much doubt one can distinguish red and dark grey; differences is tone have more to do with the condition of the surface.

[Miss Prism]

The old livery is still evident in photos from 1904 and 1905, but it is rare to see it after that. Not bad, given the size of the fleet. Why the hurry?

 

I find the notion of every red wagon being repainted within 2 or so years of 1904 incomprehensible.

[Compound2632]

I find the notion of every red wagon being repainted within 2 or so years of 1904 incomprehensible.

 

... and inconsistent with the anecdotal evidence that suggests there was a mix of both red and grey wagons up to the Great War. Irrespective of the colour debate, a re-lettering campaign on that short timescale seems unlikely too. Economic conditions were different by the grouping but there's abundant evidence that the new LMS wagon livery spread very slowly - though this might also reflect some dragging of the feet at Earlestown.

[Mikkel]

I find the notion of every red wagon being repainted within 2 or so years of 1904 incomprehensible.

 

... and inconsistent with the anecdotal evidence that suggests there was a mix of both red and grey wagons up to the Great War. Irrespective of the colour debate, a re-lettering campaign on that short timescale seems unlikely too. Economic conditions were different by the grouping but there's abundant evidence that the new LMS wagon livery spread very slowly - though this might also reflect some dragging of the feet at Earlestown.

 

I fully agree gentlemen, and that's what I was wondering about: Why is it that we see so few wagons with the small lettering after 1905/6?

[Mikkel]

Further to this, maybe there's a bias when photos are dated.

 

Ie, someone (myself included) sees a photo of wagons with different liveries, and automatically concludes that "this photo must be taken just after the 1904 livery changeover". But in reality it was taken in 1910 (or whatever).

[Compound2632]

Further to this, maybe there's a bias when photos are dated.

 

Ie, someone (myself included) sees a photo of wagons with different liveries, and automatically concludes that "this photo must be taken just after the 1904 livery changeover". But in reality it was taken in 1910 (or whatever).

 

Pre-grouping photos often turn out to be later than one first thinks - often post-Great War or even post Grouping! This reflects the development of the technology - as it got less expensive and cumbersome, folk occasionally turned their cameras on such dull subjects as goods yards.

 

Exceptions include posed station staff groups. Otherwise, it's engines.

 

Official photos taken to record e.g. new works are another occasional source of random goods wagon shots, as in the Danzey photo. Also, there's the occasional lucky find such as the Stourbridge accident photos.