More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Nick Holliday]

Harworth Colliery Photo is 1930s.

 

 Number on door of nearest wagon 182?

Or possibly 1582?

 

I do like the art of close reading of these old photos.

I agree the Harworth picture, apparently actually Bentley Colliery is later, and that Bentley only opened in 1908 and Harworth perhaps seven or more years later. However, BW&C stands for Barber and Walker and Co. and they dated back to the 1880s and owned collieries on the Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire borders, such as Brinsley, High Park, Moorgreen, Selston and Watnall. Turton's Fifth Collection, page 176, shows that they owned a number of older style wagons, and often omitted the colliery name. These would have easy access to the MR.

Even more enlightening is a picture in his Thirteenth Collection, page 150. This is a magnificent panorama of Buxton yard in pre-grouping days, but sadly undated. The caption notes a number of Private Trader wagons, such as BLF (Buxton Lime Firms), Barber & Walker, Beattie of Manchester, Brentnall and Cleland, Lea and Co, London, Pollards of Burnley and a mystery D&F, possibly Day and Ferguson of Buxton. Elsewhere in this volume is the story of S Taylor, Frith, originally a quarry owner at Peak Forest.

[57xx]

Looking closely, it's not the same cart, the wheels and side supports are different, also the sheet on the horse's back.

 

I thought it was just lighting making the sides sheet appear different when I looked earlier but closer inspection does indeed show they are different.

[Lecorbusier]

Has anyone noticed that the cart (& presumably horse) are different in the two views?  Having two employed would suggest that there was quite a movement to/from the wagons and that indeed (as the other wagons appear untouched) unloading of the MR wagon was ongoing. To me would seem to confirm a bulk movement of coal to a large customer.

 

Tony

Tony,

 

Yes I had noticed that.

 

The second photo is an enlargement from the Midland Official circa 1910. The weather is quite overcast.

 

The first is an independent photo (according to Dave Harris at the Midland Railway Study Centre) because it shows an express coming through which is not the official 'style'. It is a also a sunny day with very different weather and light conditions.

 

The thinking is that they were taken on different days, but obviously quite close together as the loads in the wagons haven't changed. There was some debate as to whether the cart in the first might be  the conveyance for the photographer - it appears to be of a higher quality than the second with returns to the ends hinting at perhaps seating - the second is clearly a tip cart with external framing and higher sides.

 

The station master appears to be different in the two shots ... the first wearing a different hat to the one in the second. Also in the first there appears to be a figure next to the cart to the rear of the horse.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Compound2632]

Model Railway Journal No. 258, just arrived: Wild Swan Advert, "Coming Shortly LNWR Wagons Volume Three"...

[Lecorbusier]

I am reposting this image but enlarged to see if it can render up anymore information to those that know what they are looking at ... perhaps still too blurred but you never know!

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Spitfire2865]

I am posting this image but enlarged to see if it can render up anymore information to those that know what they are looking at ... perhaps still too blurred but you never know!

 

Monsal Viaduct-add 2 copy.jpg

Its definitely a train on a bridge. 

What appears to be a Midland 0-6-0 with inside frames, with a train of:

loco coal wagon, unknown 5 plank, MR 3 plank, D299, MR brake van, D299, D299, D299, unknown 3 plank, unknown 3 plank, I assume 5x 5 plank PO wagons, 5x 7 plank PO wagons, and a MR 6 wheel brake van.  

 

A bit odd the first brake van is following 4 wagons, possibly the first van was from a train that was split and the 5 wagon rake continued in another train?

 

 

Edit:

The first brake van is probably the Kirtley design, and the unknown 5 plank at the front also appears Midland with very faded lettering.  That, or a 3 lettered livery with a letter on the door. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Spitfire2865

[Compound2632]

I am posting this image but enlarged to see if it can render up anymore information to those that know what they are looking at ... perhaps still too blurred but you never know!

 

Monsal Viaduct-add 2 copy.jpg

 

 

Its definitely a train on a bridge. 

What appears to be a Midland 0-6-0 with inside frames, with a train of:

loco coal wagon, unknown 5 plank, MR 3 plank, D299, MR brake van, D299, D299, D299, unknown 3 plank, unknown 3 plank, I assume 5x 5 plank PO wagons, 5x 7 plank PO wagons, and a MR 6 wheel brake van.  

 

A bit odd the first brake van is following 4 wagons, possibly the first van was from a train that was split and the 5 wagon rake continued in another train?

 

 

Edit:

The first brake van is probably the Kirtley design, and the unknown 5 plank at the front also appears Midland with very faded lettering.  That, or a 3 lettered livery with a letter on the door. 

 

Spitfire, see my post of last Saturday and subsequent discussion about the sheeted D299 wagons possibly carrying lime. The Tariff Van (fifth vehicle) is particularly interesting as I'm not aware of any other photo of one in traffic. The first 15 vehicles are all Midland. I don't think the enlargement gives any more information, though if one knew what the camera shutter speed was likely to have been, one could estimate the speed of the train from the amount of blurring!

[Lecorbusier]

Spitfire, see my post of last Saturday and subsequent discussion about the sheeted D299 wagons possibly carrying lime. The Tariff Van (fifth vehicle) is particularly interesting as I'm not aware of any other photo of one in traffic. The first 15 vehicles are all Midland. I don't think the enlargement gives any more information, though if one knew what the camera shutter speed was likely to have been, one could estimate the speed of the train from the amount of blurring!

I hoped that the lettering on the PO wagons to the rear of the train might throw up some suggestions ... the second one from the end before the guard is a little clearer than before? I think it also shows that the van is more than likely the 6 wheel 20T variety .... which is good as I have a LRM one in the pending pile.

[Buhar]

On the PO wagon, it's a bit mundane but "United"?

[wagonman]

On the PO wagon, it's a bit mundane but "United"?

 

 

Yes it does look like it – dumb buffered too. Presumably it's 'United' of the Swansea Valley and therefore an anthracite wagon heading home...

[Penlan]

Yes it does look like it – dumb buffered too. Presumably it's 'United' of the Swansea Valley and therefore an anthracite wagon heading home...

The only problem I have with this is, the bottom line lettering looks to heavy for 'Swansea Valley...... XXXX'.

[Compound2632]

On 23/10/2017 at 19:43, wagonman said:

Yes it does look like it – dumb buffered too. Presumably it's 'United' of the Swansea Valley and therefore an anthracite wagon heading home...

 

... by Midland train all the way, via Derby, Birmingham, Hereford, etc.

 

Now for some model wagons. Club night tomorrow, so I hope to have sight of Atkins et al. to see what is known about O5 and V6 numbers. Meanwhile, back to the LSWR 10 ton van. I painted this in Precision P91 SR Freight Brown, over a base coat of the Halfords red primer. I’m in two minds about whether the red was a better choice than grey – it gives quite a warmish brown (should the aim be a ‘purple-brown’?) but is hard to get good coverage. After gloss varnishing the sides (Humbrol spray can), I’ve added the lettering, using POWSides LSWR Goods Vans sheet (ID 453). As with the Huntley & Palmers lettering, I used low-tack tape to help position the transfers and hold them in place while rubbing down:

 

 

I don’t have the relevant work of reference [bixley et al., An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons, Vol. 1. (OPC, 1984)], so the lettering follows the kit instructions reinforced by reference to photos of preserved vans 8112 and 2773 at the Bluebell Railway along with Mikkel’s model. The David Geen Kit and No. 2773 have the wider planking, which I take to be earlier. No. 8112 is dated to 1912 and has the narrower planks. The Cambrian kit has the vertical centre-line of a plank aligned with the crossing-point of the X-bracing whereas on No. 8112, it’s the join of two planks that’s at this height, so the lettering L S W R sits neatly across two planks. No. 2773 also has the lettering aligned with the crossing-point of the X-bracing, so it seems this trumps position relative to the planking joints. So that’s what I’ve done (it’s also what the instructions show), with the lettering sitting across three planks. Some careful trimming of the transfer carrier sheet was needed to get the L and R tucked well into the angle of the bracing.

 

The POWSides transfers are fine enough that it is possible to fit both Load 10 Tons and the tare weight on the second plank up at the right-hand end. The sheet gives two tares in the block style, 7-9-2 (half a ton on the heavy side) and the unfeasible 6-2-11. By trimming this down to 6-2-1, I gained a little more room to fit everything in, even if it’s about 14 cwt – 15 cwt on the light side. The sheet does include individual tare weight digits but…

 

The sheet includes some ready-made wagon numbers, including 9281 and 1408, so these were chopped up to make 8114 – close to the number of the narrow-planked Bluebell van. The instructions say LSWR numbering was as unsystematic as most other companies’, with new wagons taking the numbers of withdrawn vehicles, so I suppose it’s probable 8112 wasn’t part of a run. If anyone can tell me that 8114 was definitely the number of some other wagon and suggest a more appropriate number for this van, I’d be glad to know before I spray the matt varnish!

 

Also, before varnishing, I think I ought to run the brown paint round the edge of the roof. like 8112, though 2773 has this in roof colour – possibly because the canvas is carried over the edge?

 

I superglued a couple of weights inside before putting the roof on, then a few days later dropped the model – I caught it before it hit the floor but the shock was enough to break the cyanoacrylate bond, so I’ve now got a loose load…

 

A less successful experiment with POWSides transfers involves a Cambrian kit for a Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Co. 1-plank wagon, that I’d built and painted stone colour with black ironwork quite a while ago – before I started this thread. I came across the model a few weeks back and so ordered the ‘Bath Stone Firms Ltd’ transfers from POWSides along with the LSWR transfers and some others. Then, serendipitously, the Corsham stone wharf entered the discussion a few pages back. I linked to a couple of 1928 photos (here giving an end-view of two-plank wagons Nos. 305 and 350 and here, similar wagon No. 359) and a pre-Great War postcard with dumb-buffered wagons abounding. (See also Richard’s comment.) All these wagons are 2-plank wagons with wooden frames and, at least in the postcard, lettered BATH STONE FIRMS with the running number above and on the end. The POWSides transfers are based on the livery style of a Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Co. one-planked steel-framed wagon of 1900, lettered BATH STONE FIRMS Ltd, BATH and with the number on the solebar, as illustrated at Plate 33 in Keith Montague’s book. Plate 31 shows an exactly contemporary wood-framed one-plank wagon, per the Cambrian kit, lettered for Bath & Corsham Freestone Quarries, both wagons are “Empty to Corsham” so there’s perhaps some complicated company history going on – “Bath Stone Firms” suggests an amalgamation; Richard noted the later take-over of Marsh Son & Gibbs. Plate 34 in Montague shows an identical steel-framed wagon lettered BATH STONE FIRMS Ltd, PORTLAND so their activities evidently weren’t confined to the Corsham quarries.

 

So, I have an authentic Gloucester stone wagon of a type not apparently used by Bath Stone Firms, transfers for an authentic livery for a type of wagon I don’t have, and photographic evidence for lots of 2-plank wagons in yet a different livery style.

 

My first shot was to try spacing out the lettering to match the two-plank wagons:

 

 

… but made a bit of a hash of it. So for the other side I just went with the transfers as they are intended:

 

 

A bit better, though the number on the solebar is wonky. There aren’t enough digits to have the same number twice, so it’s 254 on one side and end and 367 on the other!

 

I think this is one to put to the back of the pile again for now, though those dumb-buffered wagons on the postcard are crying out to be built.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Spitfire2865]

 

I dont read this thread every day so I was unaware it was posted previously. All I saw was todays photo and a call for information.

[Compound2632]

I dont read this thread every day so I was unaware it was posted previously. All I saw was todays photo and a call for information.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to sound snappish. There's been a lot of activity recently - all very interesting and some relevant to the D299 theme but I was taken aback at how many pages back I had to go to find my previous postings on the LSWR van and on Corsham! Nobody's stepped up with a detailed explanation of Tariff traffic yet - see also...

[Lecorbusier]

I dont read this thread every day so I was unaware it was posted previously. All I saw was todays photo and a call for information.

I have edited my previous post to make it clear it was the posting of an enlargement from a previously posted image ... sorry if I caused confusion.

[Lecorbusier]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound snappish. There's been a lot of activity recently - all very interesting and some relevant to the D299 theme but I was taken aback at how many pages back I had to go to find my previous postings on the LSWR van and on Corsham! Nobody's stepped up with a detailed explanation of Tariff traffic yet - see also...

Apologies ... no intent to hijack the thread.

[wagonman]

The only problem I have with this is, the bottom line lettering looks to heavy for 'Swansea Valley...... XXXX'.

 

 

There may have been variant liveries – the company was called United Anthracite Company or some such. It's clearly not United National, nor United Alkali, nor the Glasgow United Collieries...

[wagonman]

 

 

A less successful experiment with POWSides transfers involves a Cambrian kit for a Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Co. 1-plank wagon, that I’d built and painted stone colour with black ironwork quite a while ago – before I started this thread. I came across the model a few weeks back and so ordered the ‘Bath Stone Firms Ltd’ transfers from POWSides along with the LSWR transfers and some others. Then, serendipitously, the Corsham stone wharf entered the discussion a few pages back. I linked to a couple of 1928 photos (here giving an end-view of two-plank wagons Nos. 305 and 350 and here, similar wagon No. 359) and a pre-Great War postcard with dumb-buffered wagons abounding. (See also Richard’s comment.) All these wagons are 2-plank wagons with wooden frames and, at least in the postcard, lettered BATH STONE FIRMS with the running number above and on the end. The POWSides transfers are based on the livery style of a Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Co. one-planked steel-framed wagon of 1900, lettered BATH STONE FIRMS Ltd, BATH and with the number on the solebar, as illustrated at Plate 33 in Keith Montague’s book. Plate 31 shows an exactly contemporary wood-framed one-plank wagon, per the Cambrian kit, lettered for Bath & Corsham Freestone Quarries, both wagons are “Empty to Corsham” so there’s perhaps some complicated company history going on – “Bath Stone Firms” suggests an amalgamation; Richard noted the later take-over of Marsh Son & Gibbs. Plate 34 in Montague shows an identical steel-framed wagon lettered BATH STONE FIRMS Ltd, PORTLAND so their activities evidently weren’t confined to the Corsham quarries.

 

So, I have an authentic Gloucester stone wagon of a type not apparently used by Bath Stone Firms, transfers for an authentic livery for a type of wagon I don’t have, and photographic evidence for lots of 2-plank wagons in yet a different livery style.

 

My first shot was to try spacing out the lettering to match the two-plank wagons:

 

Bath Stone Firms GC&W 1-plank 254.JPG

 

… but made a bit of a hash of it. So for the other side I just went with the transfers as they are intended:

 

Bath Stone Firms GC&W 1-plank 367.JPG

 

A bit better, though the number on the solebar is wonky. There aren’t enough digits to have the same number twice, so it’s 254 on one side and end and 367 on the other!

 

I think this is one to put to the back of the pile again for now, though those dumb-buffered wagons on the postcard are crying out to be built.

 

Bath Stone Firms is, for me, still a work in progress, but I can tell you that BSF was an amalgamation in 1887 of seven stone firms for the area. They later started buying up quarrying companies on Portland and eventually changed the name to Bath & Portland Stone Firms in 1908. The company inherited a large fleet of wagons from its constituents – so much so that they disposed of some in the 1890s – all dumb buffer and many converted from broad gauge. So far as I know the 50 steel framed wagons (nos 500-549) they bought from Gloucester in 1900 were the first new wagons obtained. Some of the old wagons had a single plank – 281 was one though it had drop sides – but most had 2 thin (probably 7in) planks.

 

The Bath & Corsham Freestone Quarries Ltd had a brief life: registered in 1898, in liquidation by 1909. The assets were sold to a new company, I believe...

 

Out with the plasticard and the scalpel!

 

 

Richard

[57xx]

Its definitely a train on a bridge. 

 

I think you're on to something there.

[John_Miles]

Yes it does look like it – dumb buffered too. Presumably it's 'United' of the Swansea Valley and therefore an anthracite wagon heading home...

 

Sorry for being slow to reply but things such as Cardiff Model Railway show and visitors from the USA have been taking up my time. United of Swansea Valley is very interesting. According to Turton, United was a rebranding of Hendreforgan Colliery. This was situated between Gwys and Cwmllynfell in the very narrow valley of the Afon Llynfell. The rebranding took place in 1888 and the company was declared bankrupt in 1893. So if this is a United wagon, this gives a reasonably precise date for the image. As the loco appears to be a Johnson 2F (I know they weren't called 2Fs at the time), this date is entirely plausible. 

 

After the bankruptcy of United, it appears the GCG company bought the wagons and the Gwys Collieries Company took over the mine and operated it until 1926.

 

Given that United only operated for 5 years, it is odd that Slaters produced a kit.

[wagonman]

 

 

Given that United only operated for 5 years, it is odd that Slaters produced a kit.

 

 

I suspect Slaters' choice had more to do with the existence of a photo of one of the batch of 30 wagons obtained on deferred payments in March 1892 – ignoring the small fact that the model wagon was "15ft" long whereas the prototype was 16ft. I doubt if Slaters either knew or cared about the longevity of the wagons in question.

[Compound2632]

Sorry for being slow to reply but things such as Cardiff Model Railway show and visitors from the USA have been taking up my time. United of Swansea Valley is very interesting. According to Turton, United was a rebranding of Hendreforgan Colliery. This was situated between Gwys and Cwmllynfell in the very narrow valley of the Afon Llynfell. The rebranding took place in 1888 and the company was declared bankrupt in 1893. So if this is a United wagon, this gives a reasonably precise date for the image. As the loco appears to be a Johnson 2F (I know they weren't called 2Fs at the time), this date is entirely plausible. 

 

After the bankruptcy of United, it appears the GCG company bought the wagons and the Gwys Collieries Company took over the mine and operated it until 1926.

 

Given that United only operated for 5 years, it is odd that Slaters produced a kit.

 

But the viaduct maintenance is dated to 1907 which appears to be consistent with all other elements of the photo.

[Penlan]

But the viaduct maintenance is dated to 1907 which appears to be consistent with all other elements of the photo.

... and thus, why I didn't think it was a 'United' wagon, apart from the heavy lettering under whatever it is, the 'United' Font is thinner than that in the photo, but I'm not that clever with PO's.

Dumb buffered, end door and a low arc end at the other, oh, end, an interesting wagon for 1907.

Many thanks to John Miles for his input re. the origins of the 'United'  company in the Swansea Valley (aka Swansea Vale).

[Lecorbusier]

Thought I would upload these images as they may be of interest.

 

Thought this was interesting because it clearly shows what I assume are D299s half loaded with limestone at Rowsley ... suggests that counting the planks for the weight limit for various materials is probably a valid suggestion when using MR stock?

 

Again at Rowsley ... 

 

Is this the tale end of a 3 plank ballast wagon with fully hinged side?

 

[Poggy1165]

Going back to the "BC" wagon, it could be Bredbury Colliery, which was situated on the GC & Midland Joint near Bredbury Station. Photos of their wagons are rare, but there is one in Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon and Ironworks Co, by A. J. Watts, p. 62. This is a HMRS photo, reference ACA009 and it should be possible to buy a copy via the HMRS website. (Shameless plug.)