Does the Hornby GWR 4 wheel coach R446 represent anything real ?

[brian777999]

Is the Hornby GWR short 4 wheel coach (R446) really a model of anything that actually existed ? My book on GWR coaches is yet to arrive but I have not seen any photos of these types of coaches in any of my other GWR books. When and where would they have been used ?

 

http://www.Hornby.com/passenger-rolling-stock/r446/product.html

[coachmann]

Does the Hornby GWR 4 wheel coach R446 represent anything real ?

Yeh, it represents Hornby's commitment to scale modelling....

[brushman47544]

Yeh, it represents Hornby's commitment to scale modelling....

That's a bit unfair... B) . I've always thought of it as Hornby's way of encouraging us to develop our modelling skills rather than play trains...

 

As you might guess, the answer to the original question is "No".

[Guest stuartp]

It is allegedly close to a Somerset and Dorset design but which one I don't know, and I can't remember where I read that (either here or New Railway Modellers a long time ago). It doesn't look anything like the Caley coaches it sometimes purported to be either. But then that was true of a lot of Margate 'one size fits none' products.

[Neil]

It is allegedly close to a Somerset and Dorset design but which one I don't know, and I can't remember where I read that (either here or New Railway Modellers a long time ago). It doesn't look anything like the Caley coaches it sometimes purported to be either. But then that was true of a lot of Margate 'one size fits none' products.

 

It may have been me, here. The Hornby four wheeler does indeed bear a reasonable resemblance to one of the S&D carriages, at least above the solebar. I believe that it was remarked on at the time of its release by the modelling press (the first versions being in S&D blue) one of the mags probably Model Railways or MRC having drawings of the prototype.

[coachmann]

I thought this was a April 1st spoof. The only thing it resembles is a product of Margates imagination and maybe a circumsised Midland Bain coach. Come on lads, lets not make this a serious thread. It's a toy, a coach on a wagon chassis.

[jamieb]

No point going over old ground here.See this thread on the old forum

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35643&hilit=Hornby+4+wheel+coach

 

Jamie

[mike morley]

I got given one a few years ago by a well-meaning relative (yeah, I know) and in an effort to show willing, after a hasty re-gauging to EM, and trying not to let my fixed smile turn into a cringe, gave it a brief run on my layout to please the donor.

The most obvious thing about it was that it was so much taller than my other stock and I found myself thinking that amongst its many faults was that it was not 4mm scale.

 

Might it be 5.5mm scale, I found myself wondering when my annual visit to the Manx Grand Prix found this mounted by the old watertower at the end of what was once Peel station.

[coachmann]

If it is unreconstituded Triang, the 'tallness' is probably down to the buffer height being higher than on current 'scale' models from Bachmann and Hornby.

[BernardTPM]

There's tallness in both the bodywork and the Tri-ang derived chassis; it's no longer the Tri-ang moulding but still has the excess buffer height. The model dates from the latter part of the 1970s and was always meant as a cheap coach. The original catalogue mock-ups were cut down Tri-ang Clerestory bodies on the old brake van chassis. The production models don't have proper panelling as such, just raised beading round the edges of where panelling would be, plus there's the extra 1mm slightly recessed strip along the top edge of the sides for no obvious reason. I did work out that if you remove all the beading bar that round the windows (and the extra recessed strip, of course) and then spliced several bodies together, they would make pretty accurate sides for a late 'Toplight' non-corridor First diagram A15 with neat 'bolections' round the windows. Incidentally, these were 'Toplights' without toplights and are shown in Russell's G W Coaches vol.2, page 103.

[ChrisN]

I have been struggling to find coaches for the Cambrian that I could model/convert. The Hornby coach is a fair approximation to a three compartment first class coach, the olny drawback being the moulded 'Third' on the doors. Although I have the coach it is still waiting for me to finish my rolling stock for my main project.

[hartleymartin]

December 1976 "Model Railways" p. 598 has a drawing for a Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway 4-wheel coach which is pretty darn close. The Hornby model scales out at 21'6" over headstocks whilst the S&DJR coach drawing shows 22'3" - only 3mm short overall length. The wheelbase on the drawing is 12'6". The main criticism of the Hornby model is that it is too tall. There is at least a 1mm lip at the top of the coach which needs to go (easy enough job with a razor saw) and the roof arc is all wrong.

 

I'm having a go at this myself, but someone else has already got a similar conversion online for you to look at:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/846/entry-7029-Hornby-4-wheel-coach/

 

They have retained the original chassis, which I believe is borrowed from their GWR Brake Van, but I will probably bash up something from an Airfix Brake Van kit.

 

These modified 4-wheelers would be useful for pre-1900 railways (1860's - 1880's period most likely) or for light railways of the Colonel Stephens empire.

 

I've also tried chopping a couple up intl a 4-compartment 4-wheeler of 28'8" length, but my cuts with the razor saw are not quite perfect.

 

I doubt that it would suit 5.5mm scale since the height of the door is 25mm - too short unless you are perhaps adapting them for narrow gauge.

Edited January 26, 2012 by hartleymartin

[ChrisN]

December 1976 "Model Railways" p. 598 has a drawing for a Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway 4-wheel coach which is pretty darn close. The Hornby model scales out at 21'6" over headstocks whilst the S&DJR coach drawing shows 22'3" - only 3mm short overall length. The wheelbase on the drawing is 12'6". The main criticism of the Hornby model is that it is too tall. There is at least a 1mm lip at the top of the coach which needs to go (easy enough job with a razor saw) and the roof arc is all wrong.

 

I'm having a go at this myself, but someone else has already got a similar conversion online for you to look at:

 

http://www.rmweb.co....-4-wheel-coach/

 

They have retained the original chassis, which I believe is borrowed from their GWR Brake Van, but I will probably bash up something from an Airfix Brake Van kit.

 

These modified 4-wheelers would be useful for pre-1900 railways (1860's - 1880's period most likely) or for light railways of the Colonel Stephens empire.

 

I've also tried chopping a couple up intl a 4-compartment 4-wheeler of 28'8" length, but my cuts with the razor saw are not quite perfect.

 

I doubt that it would suit 5.5mm scale since the height of the door is 25mm - too short unless you are perhaps adapting them for narrow gauge.

 

In the original thread, the link for which is above, someone has converted a Track Maintenance coach. The body is the same as the ordinary 4 wheelers but the chassis is the correct height. I have done something similar. It just neeeds finishing off.

[Lebunny909]

I think the coaches may be based off of the North Staffordshire Railways 4 wheeled coaches.Although they are probably simplified as they dont have the steps on the ends like the model does. This website shows a group dedicated to restoring and running those types of coaches: http://www.knottycoachtrust.org.uk/history61.html

Edited December 28, 2016 by Lebunny909

[BernardTPM]

I think the coaches may be based off of the North Staffordshire Railways 4 wheeled coaches.

Given that the Hornby coach has three compartments and round corners to the faked panelling, why?

 

(The real NSR coaches are nice though and it's good to see them being restored).

[Baldwin30762]

Hi Guys

 

I am just wondering if this coach body has an equivalent brake van body anywhere which could be used to make up some freelanced coaches, I don't want to just cut up a Ration kit or an old Hornby Clerestory coach body at this point as I am looking for something different if that is possible for an Irish theme 6 wheeled coach.

 

Colin 

[Steamport Southport]

I don't think they ever did a brake coach. When it first came out in the sets, they had 101 and three coaches.

 

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=1091

 

 

I remember being slightly disappointed at Christmas when I received the Goods Set rather than the Passenger set. Then was given the set of three coaches separately. My first proper train set.

 

 

 

Jason

[Co-tr-Paul]

Actually, first set they appeared in was the "sdjr" Rural Rambler from 75. Was just a shortened mould of the Triang clerestory but really does resemble a sdjr 4 wheel design. 42 years on and still being made !!

Regret but no brake/guard version ever made....

 

Yet !!!

Edited May 11, 2017 by Co-tr-Paul

[Poor Old Bruce]

Actually, first set they appeared in was the "sdjr" Rural Rambler from 75. Was just a shortened mould of the Triang clerestory but really does resemble a sdjr 4 wheel design. 42 years on and still being made !!

Regret but no brake/guard version ever made....

 

Is this perpetuating a comment in Ramsey's Guide? There is in fact no resemblance between the panelling of the 4-wheel coaches and the early GW clerestories. To say that they are "just a shortened mould of the Triang clerestory" is totally inaccurate.

[Flying Pig]

Is there any resemblance between the panelling of the Hornby 4-wheelers and anything that ever existed? It seems to represent the edges of the beading, but everything in between is missing. Surely the various Ratio kits are a better source of sides to bash?

[Edwardian]

Is there any resemblance between the panelling of the Hornby 4-wheelers and anything that ever existed? It seems to represent the edges of the beading, but everything in between is missing. Surely the various Ratio kits are a better source of sides to bash?

 

I am bound to agree.  With a new chassis, new roof fittings etc, you would still fail to make a prototypical coach, because the panels are not recessed, but, as you say, represented by beading.

 

It was a fashion, typically found in coaches of the 1860s, to have raised beading on the waist panels, but these invariably had square corners, other panels would be recessed.  The panel style of the Hornby coach, with small radius corners, is more typical of the 1880s-1900s, but these would be recessed panels in this style, not raised beading, and raised beading other than on the waist was not encountered on the prototype, so far as I am aware.

 

I love RTR bashing and bodging, but there comes a point where you have to say, that sow's ear can never be made into a silk purse. 

 

If you want to stick to RTR, better, I suggest, to cut down Tri-ang clerestories, as the panelling is very good and prototypical.  You can mount them on the Airfix/Dapol brake van kit chassis.

 

For a ready-made 4-wheeler, the 2 Bachmann Thomas "red coaches" are infinitely more persuasive than the Hornby 4-wheeler, though pricier: https://www.tootallythomas.co.uk/ourshop/prod_3966523-Red-Coach-Bachmann-Thomas-and-Friends.html.  They are delightfully Stroudleyesque.

[Co-tr-Paul]

Is this perpetuating a comment in Ramsey's Guide? There is in fact no resemblance between the panelling of the 4-wheel coaches and the early GW clerestories. To say that they are "just a shortened mould of the Triang clerestory" is totally inaccurate.

I believe Pat states it in the relevant Rovex Story volume ? Regardless, I have examples of both and they are good models in my view.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Co-tr-Paul

[Steamport Southport]

I didn't know they had appeared in blue before the GWR livered versions. You learn something new every day. (I should have read the thread as it's mentioned earlier)....

 

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=1109

 

 

Funnily enough the only catalogues of that era I don't have is the 1976 and 1977 ones. I think it was a break between my brother not really being interested anymore and me not being old enough to want them.

 

 

Jason

[PhilJ W]

Hi Guys

 

I am just wondering if this coach body has an equivalent brake van body anywhere which could be used to make up some freelanced coaches, I don't want to just cut up a Ration kit or an old Hornby Clerestory coach body at this point as I am looking for something different if that is possible for an Irish theme 6 wheeled coach.

 

Colin 

I coverted one to a full brake, its quite a simple job. Dismantle the coach and you will find that the roof and glazing are one moulding that clips into the body. I removed the glazing from the roof except for that for the doors of the outer compartments, this enables the roof to be clipped back into place afterwards. Take a razor saw and cut down the inner door shut line (if your starting from the left, the right hand side of the door.) of one of the end compartments and do the same on the other side so that you will have removed two thirds of a compartment (one window + door). Repeat the exercise on the middle compartment cutting the same side of the door to leave window+window+door. Its now a simple matter of turning the centre section around and gluing them together adding a floor to reinforce the structure, this should be w+D+D+w+w+w+w+D+w. On my conversion I just had the guards door window glazed and one of the luggage compartment doors glazed. I cut the glazing parts removed from the roof moulding to suit the  new arangement and glued them into place. As I wanted blank panels I filled the gaps and painted over the windows. I also filled the cut line which was not a door shut line but if you wish you can disguise this by adding a duckett. Once painted all that is required is to clip the roof with the remaining glazing in place and fix back on the chassis.

[coachmann]

The modelling monthlies used to be full of cutting & shutting articles, but even 50 years ago I found it far easier to build scale model coaches out of styrene sheet. I wrote about it in a 1960's Model Railway Constructor because such construction avoids compromises.