renovater 1 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 How can OO be justified ? A "scale model" means just that and that includes the gauge ! With todays technology in model making there really is no excuse for making compromises. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Don't mince your words. Say what you mean. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2012 This has been discussed 100s of times. 00 gauge is not a compromise, it is a sensible design decision. If you have an exact scale track gauge, you must also have exact-scale wheel profiles. Otherwise you can't fit the wheels inside exact-scale splashers, behind exact-scale crossheads, inside exact-scale axleboxes. That's why H0 doesn't work for UK prototypes -- you can't fit RTR wheel profiles inside a scale-width model. All H0 models are over scale width over the running gear. Exact-scale wheel profiles are impractical for RTR models and also would be much more expensive to make and assemble to the required precision. For RTR models a reduced track gauge makes good practical sense. 00 gauge is narrower than it strictly need be, but it has to be narrower than exact scale to work. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 With todays technology in model making there really is no excuse for making compromises. With today's search engine technology there really is no excuse for asking the same tired questions again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted November 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2012 For true accuracy then, we should all be doing 12 inches to the foot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2012 OO doesn't need to be justified. It is British, it is extremely popular and commercially successful, and is here to stay. Other scales, gauges and standards are available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlethorpe Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 This has been discussed 100s of times. 00 gauge is not a compromise, it is a sensible design decision. regards, Martin. I disagree. It is a compromise otherwise British Modellers would be using HO. I think assume that the original post is mainly in reference to track gauge. I recently converted from OO to N because of space issues but I am finding N very frustrating as at my age my eyesight & manual dexterity are not what they were. If model railways had never previously existed but were introduced today them my guess would be that they would be at a scale of 100:1 for what I think are obvious reasons. Let's put the cat among among the pigeons and ask that the UK r-t-r manufacturers (Peco, Dapol, Hornby, Bachmann etc) start to introduce models at 100:1 scale with correct track gauge & sleeper spacing and all locos to be supplied DCC fitted. I for one would convert to this new scale and I think that it would open up a lot of opportunities for smaller manufactures & kit suppliers etc. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flak... David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted November 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2012 . I think assume that the original post is mainly in reference to track gauge. From the op "How can OO be justified ? A "scale model" means just that and that includes the gauge !" That would be the model as a whole rather than just track gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2012 It is a compromise otherwise British Modellers would be using HO. H0 doesn't work. The concept of RTR on an exact-scale track gauge is flawed -- there isn't room for RTR wheels in a scale-width model. There is criticism enough here if a manufacturer gets so much as a door knob over-scale. Heaven knows what RMweb would be like if every steam locomotive was too wide over the splashers, or every diesel locomotive bogie side frames were too wide. Reducing the track gauge for RTR is the sensible thing to do. The UK got it right. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Simply put, yes, there is a future for OO. It is too popular to just 'die out'. If a new, affordable 100% accurate scale of a similar size were to be introduced to the R-T-R market, whilst it would dent the OO market, I highly doubt that it would end it. What would we all do with our collections!? And would Joe public really care when they buy their train sets at Christmas? If it were possible to start again from scratch, trade in all of your stock for the price you paid for it and add in inflation, and spend that money on a brand new 100% accurate scale, perhaps I would, but obviously that is a preposterous scenario. OO isn't the only 'compromise' made in railway modelling. Bridges and tunnels are placed on prototypical layouts to allow a scenic break were in reality there would not be one, the people don't move, the doors don't open... there are too many to list! With all these other compromises we make, is it really worth confining the most popular UK gauge to history over a few millimeters? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod4 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 As Martin above pointed out this is a topic that has been raised on a numerous occasions and has always become somewhat heated, polarised and circular. Whilst we do not like locking topics, should this one end up heading the same way and getting heated or insulting then it will be so locked. Please prevent my diodes from getting any worse. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted November 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2012 i under stand why we have OO and as all RTR are made to that scale thats all your getting which is fine, and if some one wants to go though all the trouble and expense of 4mm scale track gauge you build and converted to P4 which i can under stand why but i won't be doing that as with 35+ loco + stock would cost a arm and a leg. BUT why EM would still cost me a arm and a leg and still end up where i started a 4mm loco which is still not on 4 mm track Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 How can OO be justified ? A "scale model" means just that and that includes the gauge ! With todays technology in model making there really is no excuse for making compromises. Godwin's Gauge Law son, you lose... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 iBUT why EM would still cost me a arm and a leg and still end up where i started a 4mm loco which is still not on 4 mm track Because for the first 20-odd years that it existed, EM (in its various evolving forms) was felt to be the closest practicable workable set of standards that could reasonably be acheived. It wasn't until the 1970s (Heckmondwyke ?) that somebody showed that you could go the whole 18.83 hog and make it work, and even then it started a massive P4/S4 row for the next ten years over who had the hairiest shirt. Once P4 became a practicable reality there were those working in EM who decided to stick with what they had as it satisfied them, exactly as there are those of us who stick with 00 because we can accept the compromise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 How can N gauge be justified as well. I mean, have you seen the wheels!! I'd ban it. And in fact, come to think of it, how can any Railway Modelling be justified as well!! More to the point: How can this thread be justified??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Aft'noon all, Given the advances in technology over the last 50 to 60 years and therefore the sensible expectation of similar progress over the coming decades, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that properly compensated/sprung RTR models with scale wheels running on rails a scale distance apart, could be produced to a tight budget. However, the desire of many modellers to run large locomotives at speed around curves tighter than you would find in most sidings, on track laid to similar standards, is unlikely to change. Therefore, as 'Old Dudders' says above "other scales, gauges and standards are available". Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CullingworthGNR Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I have thought many times about moving scale to something smaller, so I have either more room to fit things into the loft, or can fit in larger curves to make a layout more prototypical. However, I always come back to the same thing: what about my old stock that holds sentimental value? I don't want to get rid of it, and don't even want to store it as I'd prefer to remotor where possible and keep things running - even if that means in some cases that the loco ends up with a new chassis and new body, like the famous old broom that's had 5 new handles and 7 new brushes. If the house burnt down I'd probably start again in N, or TT if I was modelling the European scene. But without wanting to ditch everything that I've had for 20 years now (wow, how did that happen) I can't see it happening soon! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Harvey Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Oh Belgium not this again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 .....There is criticism enough here if a manufacturer gets so much as a door knob over-scale. Heaven knows what RMweb would be like if every steam locomotive was too wide over the splashers, or every diesel locomotive bogie side frames were too wide...... "Electric Nose" is what it would be Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Oh Belgium not this again. Indeed! As has already been posted, If model railways had never existed, and if we were in fact developing them from scratch now, the chances are, we would not be creating them in this gauge now.... OO was designed that way for many reasons, some good, some not so BUT, it has survived, and is the most popular gauge, and for every mainstream, and smaller manufacturers to re-tool everything, and for every modeller to convert everything, and for every model - RTR and kitbuilt item of stock in existence in that gauge to have to be re-built is a gargantuan task, surely? If manufacturers were to change everything, that would leave existing OO modellers with new models, and I'm sure they won't all wish to be producing their models in OO, plus the new "agreed" gauge, especially with the further choices of DC / DCC / Fitted / Ready / Sound-fitted and I'm sure shops just wouldn't have the room to be able to accomodate the myriad different combinations..... With todays technology in spell checking, there's no excuse for mis-spelling "renovator" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
renovater 1 Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 When deciding upon the title of this thread i could have chosen " Has the time for RTR P4 arrived ". I believe the time has come to swing the balance in RTR away from "OO" towards "P4". This includes not only the rolling stock but the track as well, in other words that P4 would become the norm and not the exception. Such a move would act to bring in new customers and to raise the quality of RTR products even higher.Following on from what has previously been stated above, it would be good if we could discuss this issue seriously without trying to score points, it would be interesting to know what people think about this subject in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I think someone is taking the wee, wee. They are sitting back and laughing at all the huff puff. Dave Franks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted November 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2012 I believe the time has come to swing the balance in RTR away from "OO" towards "P4". This includes not only the rolling stock but the track as well, in other words that P4 would become the norm and not the exception. Such a move would act to bring in new customers and to raise the quality of RTR products even higher.. Can not disagree more on this. So commercial companies should cease current production, Invest heavily in what is a niche part of the market and then expect the customer base to just "move over". Without being rude I would suggest that this idea needs just a little more thought. Come back when you've thought it out more thoroughly and can make a commercial argument for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Living in France? Is that part of the real world. Raising RTR standards - you have obviously not read my Blog about Bachmann's latest offering which arrived with all the drive axles at 15.5mm flange spacing. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 The fact that stock can be built to scale width in 00 is good, as it makes it easier to produce accurate models in EM or P4 for those who want to. Current 00 wheel standards are close to/the same as EM standards, I think, so I suppose if RTR was being created now, it could use EM gauge, and give a much better appearance, without the need for wide flangeways and overscale rail to handle old stock. That wasn't the case 40 years ago when I went EM though. Then it was a choice between way overscale "steamroller" wheels in 00, or something that looked far more convincing. The technology of the time probably wasn't up to mass producing the models that are available now, at an affordable price. Now the 00 market is too big to change. The best technology doesn't always win (Video 2000/Betamax/VHS, IBM PC/Apple etc). I'm planning a new EM layout, because most of my stock is EM, and I started in EM when P4 was very new and not well developed. My broad gauge models are to P4 standards though, and I would probably use P4 for "narrow gauge" too if I was starting now, or I may just go for 00 because life is too short, and it looks so much better now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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