RMweb Premium newbryford Posted May 5, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 5, 2014 courtesy of Marcus37 Advance speed warning board Simple question is there any rules? Say for instance in a town on the road usually 30miles an hour.On a single main road top speed 60. On a dual carriage way top speed 70. Do railways have any simplified rules? In simple terms - no. Gradient, curvature, condition of track all have their effect on speed limits - remember that trains can't brake quite as easily as road vehicles, hence the use of advance boards - which are relatively rare on roads. There are also variable speed limits for types of trains, that may be dependent on braking characteristics - a freight will be harder to slow than say a DMU. (In some respects, this parallels differential limits for cars/vans/LGV/caravans etc.). At least there are no "white van men" on the railway! Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweven Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Nice pictures , ad if you have more of Goathland I would be happy to have them too. All reference is good for the modelling. Hi, here is another detail shot of the southern end of the station and a couple of videos that show some detail. Cheers John (0:27 Tornado leaving northern end of Goathland on same wet day, shows detail of the semaphore signal north of the bridge near Barnet Cottage and the hillside beyond) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu8KurQc9gc (1:02 Shows the overbridge and a good bit of platform detail) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRvkHoLHaQ&feature=youtu.be 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Hi, here is another detail shot of the southern end of the station and a couple of videos that show some detail. Cheers John GoathlandSouthernEndSml.jpg (0:27 Tornado leaving northern end of Goathland on same wet day, shows detail of the semaphore signal north of the bridge near Barnet Cottage and the hillside beyond) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu8KurQc9gc (1:02 Shows the overbridge and a good bit of platform detail) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRvkHoLHaQ&feature=youtu.be excellent picture of the steps up the hillside, these are much harder to get because google maps etc do not run a vehicle over there, so it is much harder to source details. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 In simple terms - no. Gradient, curvature, condition of track all have their effect on speed limits - remember that trains can't brake quite as easily as road vehicles, hence the use of advance boards - which are relatively rare on roads. There are also variable speed limits for types of trains, that may be dependent on braking characteristics - a freight will be harder to slow than say a DMU. (In some respects, this parallels differential limits for cars/vans/LGV/caravans etc.). At least there are no "white van men" on the railway! Mick Really good information here Mick I think as technology advances and loco detection is more available and more used, people will take their model railway control to another level. We will look deeper in to blocks and control speeds accordingly. Signalling becomes more important and so do 'speed limits' I purchased Train Sim TS-2014 in December and was amazed what I learned by using it. The first without doubt was stopping distance. Another was speed limits, restrictions and signage. Another was the pull of a train uphill and the easy runaway train down hill. Technology has already started to improve model railway, with sound locos and speed controls to suit the type of loco, it is getting better. It is getting away from the old situation when some people thought trains had to run round a track as if a scalextric car. A white van man approach and thank goodness we are getting more and more to the 'real train experience' I really do like the train sim but, I love my humble model train layout. (work in progress and a long way to go) PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 In simple terms - no. Gradient, curvature, condition of track all have their effect on speed limits - remember that trains can't brake quite as easily as road vehicles, hence the use of advance boards - which are relatively rare on roads. There are also variable speed limits for types of trains, that may be dependent on braking characteristics - a freight will be harder to slow than say a DMU. (In some respects, this parallels differential limits for cars/vans/LGV/caravans etc.). At least there are no "white van men" on the railway! Mick Does anyone know where we can purchase the various speed and gradient signs and directional arrows often associated with them? PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Hi, here is another detail shot of the southern end of the station and a couple of videos that show some detail. Cheers John GoathlandSouthernEndSml.jpg (0:27 Tornado leaving northern end of Goathland on same wet day, shows detail of the semaphore signal north of the bridge near Barnet Cottage and the hillside beyond) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu8KurQc9gc (1:02 Shows the overbridge and a good bit of platform detail) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRvkHoLHaQ&feature=youtu.be Just had a chance to look at the two videos as well, as you say some nice platform and scenic areas...short and sweet concentrating exactly on the areas I am interested in thank you very much Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Really good information here Mick I think as technology advances and loco detection is more available and more used, people will take their model railway control to another level. We will look deeper in to blocks and control speeds accordingly. Signalling becomes more important and so do 'speed limits' I purchased Train Sim TS-2014 in December and was amazed what I learned by using it. The first without doubt was stopping distance. Another was speed limits, restrictions and signage. Another was the pull of a train uphill and the easy runaway train down hill. Technology has already started to improve model railway, with sound locos and speed controls to suit the type of loco, it is getting better. It is getting away from the old situation when some people thought trains had to run round a track as if a scalextric car. A white van man approach and thank goodness we are getting more and more to the 'real train experience' I really do like the train sim but, I love my humble model train layout. (work in progress and a long way to go) PJ This is exactly what Kal is interested in. The number is related to the controlling signalbox - in this case DY is Derby - and is also used by the traincrew to identify exactly where they are when they contact the 'box. Even manual signals boxes have codes - my locals are HJ Horrocksford Junction and DS for Daisyfield Junction. The yellow thing is probably an electrical termination box - probably for the TPWS loop adjacent to the signal. The boxis an illuminated stencil that give supplementary information, such as route setting. Again a local example has "SDG" when the route is set for the line into the cement works exchange siding, as opposed to the main line. Similar boxes are used along platforms with "OFF" to tell the station staff that the signal has cleared. Chees, Mick The orange ducting is supposedly to tell tamper crews not to operate in the gap as there are cables. I believe their use is less these days as once the ducting is dirty, the tampers don't see it anyway and still cut through! The cables not in the ducting look new(er). Cheers, Mick Mick, thank you for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Does anyone know where we can purchase the various speed and gradient signs and directional arrows often associated with them? PJ Directional speed board Plus I have some of the old ones ...I'll go look for them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Am still tidying upstairs. And putting away building s that really won't be used anytime soon to make room............probably for ones that might get used lol Am off to try some pens for yellow road lines....hopefully I won't have to paint over them......long ruler yellow halfords pen.....hi ho hi ho it's off to work i go........ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Does anyone know where we can purchase the various speed and gradient signs and directional arrows often associated with them? PJ https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=model+railway+speed+signs&rlz=1C1CHFX_enGB530GB530&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=T8xoU_TGLYKDONS2gKgI&ved=0CDwQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=667#q=model%20etched%20brass%20railway%20speed%20signs&tbm=isch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Heres one I know Point motor ...YeahI know what it is what it does and what colour and where to place it...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 The point heater, another one that I now have some idea about. The will make it easier to pain, but near a point sometimes in clusters if there are other points nearby, and can be in the 10ft with barriers either side....oooh I think I'm getting it.... courtesy of Marcus37 Point heater 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 (edited) Kal was investigating the water pump for Goathland. The price of one to match the Hornby one oh....at least £20...I refused to pay £26...and £20 is still silly...especially as the pumps are not identical. Finding an alternative ........not easy, even Sasquatch cobbled various bits together. So Kal said that we (I think he meant I) should be able to make one, and I was like um ok......gulp...and he went off and I heaved a sigh of relief...... We had discussed the main upright part before he left, and I had said maybe...an old paint brush could be used. I was thinking cut a piece and cobble some bits on top..... But........... oh no.....Kal had much grander ideas.......... He returned....with this!!!!!! rmweb1738goathland15 apparently he had used a Dremmel, and while he was at it.... he made a hole for some copper to go through to be part of the hose rmweb1737goathland14 He was like it's useless..........I;m giving up..............................and I...............................I was in shock..... .............the sneaky little devil.... ..He claims to have NO modelling skills..... I painted it...(yep it is drying too dark...needs a repaint) ....and look at this as a starter ...... .....and we know the copper wire fits just perfect because he tested it. rmweb1739goathland16 Jaz....absolutely GOBSMACKED...... Edited May 7, 2014 by Jaz 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doughnut Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 courtesy of Marcus37 Advance speed warning board Simple question is there any rules? Say for instance in a town on the road usually 30miles an hour.On a single main road top speed 60. On a dual carriage way top speed 70. Do railways have any simplified rules? Curvature of track and points(turnouts) are the main speed restrictors of linespeed. Vertical grade and curves occasionally come into it. Everyone thinks E=mc2 is an important equation,but E=11.82V2/R is king on the railways! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 minidriver and friend have been in town with Harvey. mini driver has just phoned dad to come pick them up rmweb1740kalborounion1 in an ideal world J's could be driving this rmweb1741kalborounion2 though he wouldn't be able to fit in tow children and a dog so instead he would be better with this.... rmweb1741kalborounion3 and you may notice the nice new yellow road markings.. rmweb1743kalborounion4 rmweb1744kalborounion5 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Curvature of track and points(turnouts) are the main speed restrictors of linespeed. Vertical grade and curves occasionally come into it. Everyone thinks E=mc2 is an important equation,but E=11.82V2/R is king on the railways! Can you put that in English? Why 11.82? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightengine Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Kal was investigating the water pump for Goathland. The price of one to match the Hornby one oh....at least £20...I refused to pay £26...and £20 is still silly...especially as the pumps are not identical. Finding an alternative ........not easy, even Sasquatch cobbled various bits together. So Kal said that we (I think he meant I) should be able to make one, and I was like um ok......gulp...and he went off and I heaved a sigh of relief...... We had discussed the main upright part before he left, and I had said maybe...an old paint brush could be used. I was thinking cut a piece and cobble some bits on top..... But........... oh no.....Kal had much grander ideas.......... He returned....with this!!!!!! rmweb1738goathland15 apparently he had used a Dremmel, and while he was at it.... he made a hole for some copper to go through to be part of the hose rmweb1737goathland14 He was like it's useless..........I;m giving up..............................and I...............................I was in shock..... .............the sneaky little devil.... ..He claims to have NO modelling skills..... I painted it...(yep it is drying too dark...needs a repaint) ....and look at this as a starter ...... .....and we know the copper wire fits just perfect because he tested it. rmweb1739goathland16 Jaz....absolutely GOBSMACKED...... I can see modellers going through their grandmas lace making accoutrements, nicking valuable old lace making bobbins to make pumps! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doughnut Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Can you put that in English? Why 11.82? Yes. 11.82 is just a constant that has been worked out when deriving this equation and through testing trains on track, many moons ago. It's like the 2, in 2 pi R, when working out the circumference of a circle. V is the velocity(speed) of the train in km/h and R is the Radius of the curved track. E, in this equation, is the amount of cant that needs to be applied (deficiency also) to get the train around that curve, at that speed, without it shooting off. Cant is the tilt of the track, like crossfall on a curved road. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted May 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 7, 2014 Yes. 11.82 is just a constant that has been worked out when deriving this equation and through testing trains on track, many moons ago. It's like the 2, in 2 pi R, when working out the circumference of a circle. V is the velocity(speed) of the train in km/h and R is the Radius of the curved track. E, in this equation, is the amount of cant that needs to be applied (deficiency also) to get the train around that curve, at that speed, without it shooting off. Cant is the tilt of the track, like crossfall on a curved road. Dave Dave, (Sorry I'm a Phizzypop). Is the 11.82 from the maths or is it empirical? (I suppose I ought to sit down with the equations and work it out from first principles.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C&WR Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Does anyone know where we can purchase the various speed and gradient signs and directional arrows often associated with them? PJ Another thing I always associate with the railway is the speed restriction signs which are cut-out yellow numbers on a black post. I must get some of them, although suspect they might only fit when I'm running my BR Blue era! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C&WR Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 BTW lovely work, Jaz & Kal. As you might have gathered I've been busy at work and home and had other projects hence not being round much and no railway modelling. The tank's coming on leaps and bounds, though! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Yes. 11.82 is just a constant that has been worked out when deriving this equation and through testing trains on track, many moons ago. It's like the 2, in 2 pi R, when working out the circumference of a circle. V is the velocity(speed) of the train in km/h and R is the Radius of the curved track. E, in this equation, is the amount of cant that needs to be applied (deficiency also) to get the train around that curve, at that speed, without it shooting off. Cant is the tilt of the track, like crossfall on a curved road. Dave Kal has tried explaining super elevation to me before, I get it while he is explaining...at least I think I get it, but my retention is not too hot. It is not the most interesting thing I can think of ...ooops...hope that does not make me open season... ........ Edited May 7, 2014 by Jaz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I also have to thank light engine for sending me an interesting link regards tree modelling... http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23011 I am investigating some of these ideas, and should get some pictures up, though I did not take pictures of the first one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Well the good news we are pretty much done in the old loft, we now have 40 ft long double width (16-24ft) and another 6ft at 8ft. So a potential 48ft length by a maximum 24ft realistic 11ft at layout height. (Though Kal has plans for TWO heights one scenic and one fiddle yard with some scenic. The floor is all down (her 2x8ft x 2) A lot of the joists are insulated. And he just needs to consider where he plans to put his tables. And a possible scaletrix layout. Under the low part of the roof. A lot of the length about 38ft has a central isle where my 6ft 2in younger son can walk up and down with a lot of space , so kal plans to move the fluorescences into that gap.Plus 3 into the unlit areas. And the rest is just planning the tables. North rmweb1745oldloft1 South rmweb1746oldloft2 Looking East at waist height rmweb1747oldloft3 Lokking East at knee height rmweb1748oldloft4 We need more insulation, the back edges done, the table ...blah blah.....but we can now walk around with no threat of falling through the ceiling..... 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaz Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Well there is one little problem. a slight issue, nothing too big, we have a week or so.....with the earlier discussion of cant, and superelevation that appears bit trivial in comparison to this...... and I am not sure even the flying scotsman can cope.... we do need to join the track up.... rmweb1749oldloft5 ok the gap is somewhat........large and on TWO levels!!!! rmweb1750oldloft6 ...and the big grey sheet you see in front of you out to be on the left......and it might be useful to know where the 2 cross overs have gone..... I'll be checking that out. Then once fixed, we will have a roundy roundy....until it is diverted into the old loft, and this crossing is finally done away with permanently. Edited May 8, 2014 by Jaz 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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