Arboretum Valley - Invasion of the Daleks

[Kal]

 

[Marcus 37]

Hi Jaz

First of all congratulations on 200 pages and 5000 posts. That's some achievement, I was chuffed when I got to ten pages.

I see you've bought some AWS ramps Jaz. If you need any help with where to place them let me know as obviously their part of my everyday job. Signals, speed restrictions etc.

Cheers

Marcus.

[freebs]

I don't even know what the heck AWS ramps are , but nice detailing work

BTW Knightwing are from my neck of the woods - always lots of their stuff in my local model shop (actually, I think the knighting boss owns this too)

[Kal]

Fantastic Marcus Thanks,

 

Those and what signals to add are the thing, I have been avoiding.  I have a selection to start adding to Kalborough but it made my head hurt.

[Jaz]

Marcus37

That would be really appreciated. 

 

And thanks for the congratulations. Kal and I are really chuffed. We were nervous about starting a thread here. We were lucky to come across from another forum with friends, and not long after coming here, we had seen so much superior work, it encouraged us to rip a whole lot up and update our layout. We have made a lot more friends, and found a lot of inspiration. And as Jason (Sandside) would say..I'm a complete gobshitte.

[Jaz]

Hi Jaz

First of all congratulations on 200 pages and 5000 posts. That's some achievement, I was chuffed when I got to ten pages.

I see you've bought some AWS ramps Jaz. If you need any help with where to place them let me know as obviously their part of my everyday job. Signals, speed restrictions etc.

Cheers

Marcus.

wE thought AWS ramps but the packet says ATC ramp is there a difference?

[Marcus 37]

AWS ramps are basically electro magnets placed in the track on approach to signals and on the approach to severe perms ant speed restrictions normally where there is a drop in speed of 25 mph or more. In colour light signalling areas normally every signal is fitted with an AWS ramp but in semaphore areas just the distant signal is fitted.

Basically the polarity of the magnet can be changed depending whether the signal is displaying a cautionary aspect (yellow, red) or a clear aspect (green).

On locomotives, units etc there is an AWS receiver mounted underneath which picks up the polarity of the magnet that then sends an audible and visual warning to the driver. Approaching a clear signal the driver receives a bell in the cab and a small round indicator in the cab goes all black. This is commonly known as the "sunflower". In this case the driver needs to take no action.

On the approach to a yellow or red signal the polarity will have changed and this will send a warning to the driver in the sound of a horn and the "sunflower" indicator will turn to black and yellow. In these circumstances the driver has to acknowledge this by pressing the AWS reset button in the cab. Failure to do this in approximately 5 seconds will automatically apply the trains emergency brake and bring it to a halt.

The magnets associated with permanent speed restrictions are always armed in the one polarity as the restriction doesn't move, although they can be armed and disarmed if they are on the approach to a junction where the speed only applies on one route.

Hopefully this makes sense. It's just one of the many safety systems we have in the cab these days.

 

Cheers

Marcus

[Marcus 37]

wE thought AWS ramps but the packet says ATC ramp is there a difference?

Although the packet says ATC they are actually AWS ramps used currently. ATC was actually the primitive form of this system introduced by the GWR many years ago. Funnily enough there is an original ATC ramp lying in the undergrowth by Lye station not far away from me. They looked very different to the existing ramps.

Give me a few minutes and I'll write up where you'll find this ramps positioned.

Cheers

Marcus

[Jaz]

Marcus37

Wow a very comprehensive reply.....Learning why makes it so much more alive.

 

Do you know how far in front of said signals or speed restrictions these are generally set? I notice them in stations and this now makes sense.

[Marcus 37]

Fantastic Marcus Thanks,

 

Those and what signals to add are the thing, I have been avoiding.  I have a selection to start adding to Kalborough but it made my head hurt.

Kal

Avoid no more........

Luckily signalling is the one thing I do understand, which is a good job really doing the job I do, so I will give you all the help I can. Signalling as you can imagine is an absolute minefield. There are so many different ways of signalling trains depending on the type of working being used. Ie station platforms, sidings etc where "permissive working" can be used.

Don't worry we'll sort it. I've already done a signalling diagram for one member on here so I'm sure we can do it for AV. Although a site visit maybe required due to the size if that's acceptable.

Cheers

Marcus

[Marcus 37]

Marcus37

Wow a very comprehensive reply.....Learning why makes it so much more alive.

 

Do you know how far in front of said signals or speed restrictions these are generally set? I notice them in stations and this now makes sense.

Hi Jaz

Yes the magnet is normally always set 200 yards back from the signal although this can be shortened somewhat in urbanised areas and at large junctions where there a complexed track layouts. I experience when I work out of Wembley yard where they are about 20yards off the signal. It's not a problem at these locations as the line speed is only low at around 20 mph. On the main line though they are the requires 200yards back to give the driver sufficient warning to take action. The distance in metric is 183 metres.

If it's on the approach to a speed restriction the magnet is set 200 yards back from the advance warning board which is then the required braking distance from the restriction itself.

The advance warning board is an upside down triangle with a yellow border with the speed of the restriction inside it. If it's on the approach to a junction there is another small rectangular sign beneath it which will have an Arrow pointing to the direction it applies.

If you have semaphore signalled areas only the distant signal will be fitted with AWS. Again the magnet is set 200 yards in advance of the signal.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers

Marcus

[model-trains]

AWS ramps are basically electro magnets placed in the track on approach to signals and on the approach to severe perms ant speed restrictions normally where there is a drop in speed of 25 mph or more. In colour light signalling areas normally every signal is fitted with an AWS ramp but in semaphore areas just the distant signal is fitted.

Basically the polarity of the magnet can be changed depending whether the signal is displaying a cautionary aspect (yellow, red) or a clear aspect (green).

On locomotives, units etc there is an AWS receiver mounted underneath which picks up the polarity of the magnet that then sends an audible and visual warning to the driver. Approaching a clear signal the driver receives a bell in the cab and a small round indicator in the cab goes all black. This is commonly known as the "sunflower". In this case the driver needs to take no action.

On the approach to a yellow or red signal the polarity will have changed and this will send a warning to the driver in the sound of a horn and the "sunflower" indicator will turn to black and yellow. In these circumstances the driver has to acknowledge this by pressing the AWS reset button in the cab. Failure to do this in approximately 5 seconds will automatically apply the trains emergency brake and bring it to a halt.

The magnets associated with permanent speed restrictions are always armed in the one polarity as the restriction doesn't move, although they can be armed and disarmed if they are on the approach to a junction where the speed only applies on one route.

Hopefully this makes sense. It's just one of the many safety systems we have in the cab these days.

 

Cheers

Marcus

 

Hi Marcus

 

Excellent explanation.

 

I have just gone back to my Train Sim TS-2014 to check out my journey from Carlisle to Settle in a Class 158. In this the advanced warning is a square with an exclamation mark in it that lights up with yellow and black stripes, the distance before the signal as you say also. You only have a few seconds to hit it or as you say the brakes come on and stop the train in it's tracks.  Also the sunflower you mention is there. I tried to do a screen grab from in the cab but they must run the software in layers, I got the drivers view from the cab but not the layer with all the controls and the items mentioned.  

 

I am presently preparing signals for my layout and have an image of what I am proposing which I have placed for comments. Would you like to look at it and comment? If not I understand.  The link to page 3 where the signal proposals are are here...

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83539-rael-dale-valley-railway/page-3 

 

Hope you didn't mind me adding this here Jaz and Kal

 

Many thanks to all

 

PJ

[Marcus 37]

Jaz / Kal

Just had a scan through all 200 pages to have an over view of the whole layout. Looking at some of the track layouts it will certainly take some comprehensive signalling. I take it will be colour light for the modern sections and semaphore for the heritage sections.

A decision that needs to be made is all the different moves you want to make on the layout such as shunt moves, run rounds, bi- directional moves and permissive moves etc to ensure you have the correct signalling to do these moves. These types of moves require things like position light signals and Limit of Shunts etc.

 

I'll try and describe some of the above:

PERMISSIVE:

This type of working allows more than one train into a section at a time. In other words you can have more than one train between two signals. This is most commonly found in station platforms, goods lines and yards. This moves are normally controlled by position light signals. In the case of station platforms these are associated with a main aspect signal. If a train is required to enter an already occupied platform then the position light signal will clear allowing the driver to pass the main aspect at red. He must then drive at a speed whereby he can stop short of any obstruction and be able to stop six feet short of the train already stabled in the platform. This practice is mostly seen at terminal stations or into bay platforms. There are large mainline stations like Birmingham New Street where this practice is common.

 

BI-DIRECTIONAL

A section of line which is fully signalled for trains to run in both directions. Again commonly seen at large main line stations for maximum operational flexibility. At Birmingham New street trains can arrive and depart in all directions from all 12 platforms.

 

LIMIT OF SHUNT

These are fixed ground position lights permanently showing two diagonal red lights or illuminated boards with the words "limit so shunt" on them (not very common now). If a shunt is required in the wrong direction (train moving in the opposite direction to which the line is signalled) then these signals limit the extent of these movements.

 

As I say signalling's an absolute minefield!!

 

Cheers

Marcus

[Kal]

Cool

 

Thank-you.  we still not decided what we will do in the soon to be completed old loft, so you and others may have some ideas to add to our own on what could go there.

 

That way I may end up with track layouts that are little more authentic than I have on the existing parts.

 

My modelling era is tomorrow, with heritage elements.   Old stuff is dealt with through re-enactment galas and Tv studio scenes, which leaves me to run pretty much anything I want, while still trying to add authenticity to what I can see when I am out and about.  That is the plan at least. 

[Sasquatch]

Well done on passing the 5000 mile post Jaz and Kal!  May the brilliant thread continue and I look forward to the next 5000. This has to be one of the most captivating threads on here.

 

Regards Shaun. Nice work on the cove rewatering BTW.

[southern42]

Jaz and Kal.  Congrats from me, too, on reaching 5000 posts. Well deserved.

Really captivating stuff on signalling.  Thanks to Marcus for explaining it so well.

Right. Got it. Well, er......  :no: :no:

Um, well, a bit more than I did when I tried tackling the ins and outs of it all on my own.       

Like AV, I'll probably marry old and new systems together on different sections - somehow.  But the "GWR" mention got my attention.  I'd forgotten that bit.  But wow, so much to consider.  Maybe I'll simplify my track plan before I start....   

 

Anyway, here's to your next 5000 posts. 

 

Polly

[newbryford]

Next up, you'll be needing TPWS grids to accompany your AWS ramps.....

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=TPWS+grid&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7m9ZU6vqE8zK0AWxo4DQBQ&ved=0CEYQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=955

 

Which reminds me - I need them for New Bryford (I have a packet of Hurst Models etches somewhere)

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Jaz]

Newbryford / Mick

I didn't know what they were or how to use them....but I know we have some somewhere. I will look them out 

[lezz01]

Hi Guys

Gratz on the figures.

Regards Lez.Z.

PS

Still no Daleks

Edited April 24, 2014 by lezz01

[Jaz]

Jaz and Kal.  Congrats from me, too, on reaching 5000 posts. Well deserved.

Really captivating stuff on signalling.  Thanks to Marcus for explaining it so well.

Right. Got it. Well, er......  :no: :no:

Um, well, a bit more than I did when I tried tackling the ins and outs of it all on my own.       

Like AV, I'll probably marry old and new systems together on different sections - somehow.  But the "GWR" mention got my attention.  I'd forgotten that bit.  But wow, so much to consider.  Maybe I'll simplify my track plan before I start.... 

 

Anyway, here's to your next 5000 posts. 

 

Polly

Thank you Polly

Andy P sings your praises, which is why I have recently been looking in on yours as well,

A  belated welcome to AV, we have seen your foot steps quite often recently. 

I think he has this scenario where he does some track work and we pretty it up allowing him to move onto the next one LOL.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Jaz

[Jaz]

Well done on passing the 5000 mile post Jaz and Kal!  May the brilliant thread continue and I look forward to the next 5000. This has to be one of the most captivating threads on here.

 

Regards Shaun. Nice work on the cove rewatering BTW.

Thank you Sasquatch, really appreciate that as your layout goathland has been one of the works that encouraged us to up our game.Your support and help has been really appreciated. you have encouraged me especially to have a go at new stuff. 

[newbryford]

Newbryford / Mick

I didn't know what they were or how to use them....but I know we have some somewhere. I will look them out 

 

TPWS - Train Protection and Warning System.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_Protection_%26_Warning_System

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Jaz]

Newbryford / Mick

Thank you, and whilst I am thanking people for their support and help I would like to highlight the fact that your help with the class 66 Childs graffiti was invaluable. Your Yellow Work bench is a marvellous         thread which has encouraged us to try skills we would never have dared consider without people like yourself showing how it is done. Joining RMweb was a massive boost for us. We have received nothing but friendship and encouragement from so many friendly and gifted people. And I shall blame you when you see just what Kal has talked me into attempting on the next loco....

[Jaz]

I found a picture under the AWS label which shows rust...so more colour.....

railforums.co.uk (railukforum)

 

not all of them need rust, and just a touch

rmweb1647knightwingB50C

[Jaz]

Hi Guys

Gratz on the figures.

Regards Lez.Z.

PS

Still no Daleks

Daleks will be in the mix.........these are a consideration

witness.theguadian.com

 

daleksoftheday.com

Edited April 24, 2014 by Jaz